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Dude depends what appeals to.you.do you like masses of infantry? Tanks ? Artillery? Flyers are awesome so you will probs want a valk 2platoons is.probs best

I'm working on a list right now, will post it soon. Very shooty, lots of blast template low AP weapons, so I'll have no trouble getting through armor or vehicles. I definitely like what I see.

If you haven't already ran out to the store, I've got some questions for you that will probably push you towards what you should be getting.

Question one is... Are you planning to play to the spirit of the 6th edition rules? Its ok to say "No, I am going to be playing to win as many games as I can."

If you are trying to play a cooperative, narrative game with your opponent, just buy the models that you feel are the coolest and have some fun.

If you care enough about victory to at least desire the knowledge of what is best, then I'll tell you what seems to be working for me at this early stage.

I have dabbled with my old fully mechanized 5th edition army, an all foot + armor 14 army, and have also tried a hybrid of both.

The hybrid seemed to be the worst. Everything was competing for space on the aegis line, and vehicle explosions were crushing my own models too consistently.

As for the all foot, or all mechanized, both of them are working. I'll start with mech.

The bonkers imbalance of mech IG is gone now, first and foremost, there are new buffs and nerfs to the playstyle, but the nerfs outweigh the buffs enough to bring the list down to within reason. Non-mechanized armies, particularly foot based armies can really compete against us now, as long as they are built to be resilient and fast.

What got better for mech?

Chimeras can move 18" in a single turn.
Embarked units can fire snap shots if the chimera moved cruising speed.
Embarked units can fire Overwatch against units charging the vehicle.
Embarked units can fire snap shots if the chimera is crew shaken.
If the weapon is AP3 or worse, the chimera explodes half as often as in 5th edition.
Getting cover saves for chimeras is twice as easy as before.
Glancing hits have no immediate affect on the chimera or its passengers.

What got worse?

You can't move 12", spin around, disembark 2" plus your base size and fire.
The hull point mechanic takes away the chimeras ability to occasionally defy death for multiple turns.
Being WS1 against assault at any speed makes the aggressively moved chimera a deathtrap.
Chimeras (and their embarked units) are neither scoring nor denial units.

What I have done in response to this change, is to replace the heavy flamer with a heavy bolter, and buy either autocannons or lascannons on each of my veteran units. Heavy weapons gained a small measure of functionality on the move, and the chimera is much less likely to be mid-table early, so I use them as semi-mobile fire bunkers. It still takes effort to kill AV12, it still is points-effecient, and it is defniitely shooty as hell.

Problems with this setup? Absolutely, the relic mission is very difficult to win, and the Scouring mission can be an auto-loss if the high value objectives were placed by your opponent. It will be interesting when the tourney community starts unveiling their missions that are designed for tourney play, as they are likely to make the all mechanized troop army that much more difficult to play. Mech armies are very fun. I'm staying away from playing them right now, because it is what I did for the last 4 years.

But if mech sounds fun, buy three chimeras, a command squad box, two infantry squad boxes and a heavy weapon squad. I like to stay with the armor 12 theme here and support my troops with artillery. Manticores work very well here, and take a squad of two or three hydras if you aren't going to take vendettas.

Foot guard has changed quite a bit in the edition change. Alairos has some good articles on why, so I'll spare the speech. The way to go now is to take foot platoons, heavy weapon squads, and keep them expendable and seperate in every mission that isn't Purge the Alien.

What got better with foot squads?

The aegis defense line.
Overwatch.
Disordered charges.
The ability to declare that a model is not moving, even when the rest of the unit moves.
The removal of wound wrapping. (especially when behind an Aegis)
Challenges. (A sergeant can absorb quite a few casualties from a multi-attack character.)
Random charge distances.

What got worse for foot squads?

Precision shots/strikes
The power weapon nerf.

I am not going to say that the new wound allocation rules are a nerf for IG foot units, because I have noticed that wound allocation is just a check against the players skill. If you have excellent tabletop acumen, then wound allocation is going to hurt your opponent more than you. Putting your special weapons and characters in the right place in a unit is something very fun about the game, and I am learning fast. So if you play sloppy, its going to hurt you, if you play a tighter game than your opponent, then the change is a bonus.

What really sells me on foot squads is the numerous amount of overwatches that you generate. As your opponent tries to cut through each unit, he generates additional attacks on his own turn. These attacks are not accurate, but they scale with how many models you have. That plays right into our hands. Flamers do well generating effecient overwatch hits, but weapons like plasma can do incredible things, like finishing off that last one or two grey hunters that are charging your command squad. Additionally, every new unit that needs to be charging, triggers yet another opportunity for your opponent to fail that charge based on a statistically unlikely low charge roll. As soon as that premiere unit rolls that 3 and stumbles, then you get an additional turn to kill them.

When I play with mass infantry, the trick I like to use is to take armor 14 for vehicular support. They are a lot less likely to explode and kill nearby models, and they are very difficult to kill unless you can get to their rear armor, which the wall of infantry in front of them prevent. Even better is the ease with which you can cover 25% of any of our vehicles just with some infantry models, and you have a very hard to suppress tank.

If this was interesting to you, I would suggest buying three boxes of command squads, four boxes of infantry squads, and four boxes of heavy weapons squads.

And finally, if ever there was a "must buy" for IG, the Aegis Defense Line set is one. The freakish thing about it is that it is an auto-include for both the foot IG army and the chimera based IG list. Now that vehicle cover is 25%, you can easily get that save from models firing at ground level with the large aegis section, and still have your hull weapon unblocked. When you do finally have to debark, you'll have a whole half of the aegis to set your guys in so that they can enjoy that lifesaving 4+/2+.

I hope that was illuminating. Or at least not boring

Some great advice Shep. I was actually thinking of doing more of a mechanized list. Obviously there are a good amount of troops, but they'll pretty much all be in Chimeras, only disembarking to take objectives, block possible charges against more important units, etc. The main thing is that I want to equip my guys to take on most enemies. For example, my list has 5 squads of Infantry. They're very inexpensive, can provide a lot of fire, have more survivability due to their transport and being behind the Aegis Defense Line, etc. They can pump out tons of shots that will be able to take down infantry, with support from my HWT, Veterans and Special Weapons squads. And of course, I have a Valkyrie for anti-tank/transportation, 2 Demolishers and an Executioner which are anti-vehicle and anti-infantry. My squads all have some form of anti vehicle equipped. My CCS has a Lascannon Veteran Weapons Team and Master of Ordnance, my Infantry squads have Meltas (along with my Special Weapons Squad) and my Veterans have Plasma Guns. My HWTs have Heavy Bolters, and each Leman Russ and the Valkyrie have Heavy Bolter sponsons. I'm going to be getting a ton of shots off every turn that should be able to tear infantry apart and even wreck armor easily.

A friend of mine is suggesting I take a Hydra Flak Battery, but if I take an Aegis Defense Line with Quad Gun, wouldn't that forfeit the need for the Hydra?

He's also suggesting I take a ton of Veteran squads whereas my current list only has a few and has more Infantry squads. I figure its better to go a bit cheaper to get a bunch more guys. He's also suggesting I make the Veteran squads really pricey (like 170 each) by loading up on Plasma Guns. To me that's a bad idea. Plasma on troops still worries me because even though its good at killing high armor troops, I know I roll like crap and I'm definitely going to be seeing 1s, and with a 5+ armor save I doubt I'm going to survive, meaning I'm almost setting myself up for a self destruction by losing a guy and wasting 15 pts. Right now my Veteran Squads each have a HWT with Heavy Bolter and 1 Plasma Gun. Cheap, lots of shots, it has the low AP shots if necessary and is solid for taking out infantry, which is what I want these squads to be able to combat.

He also suggests against taking a Master of Ordnance, and I really disagree with that. 30 pts for unlimited range Str 9 AP 3 Barrage, I can fire it every turn as long as I don't move. Good placement and in cover or behind an obstacle to prevent shooting and I'll should never have to move. Sure the Ordnance will scatter, but its potential is awesome.

His ideas are a lot more competitive. He thinks I need to take a full squad of 3 Vendettas, for example. Sounds sorta boring to me. And he suggests all my Veterans in my CCS have Meltas. I don't want them close enough to use Meltas anyway, I wanted my Master of Ordnance behind an obstacle, my Commander giving orders, my Vet with Regimental Standard is fine as he is and my other 2 Vets are a HWT with Lascannon. I am fine with sitting back laying the hurt. 4 Meltas require me to be within 12 inches, way too close for me, especially since with a 5+ save I'll be torn to shreds.

Just wanted to point out that when Shep said "But if mech sounds fun, buy three chimeras, a command squad box, two infantry squad boxes and a heavy weapon squad."
That you should buy a battleforce, in which you get the sentinel for free, and then can 1.) sell it, 2.) use it, or 3.) send it to me, all are valid uses for that sentinel, Its just some are more valid then others (like option 3.)

KOBossy wrote:If this is in the wrong forum, I apologize.

I know some of the basics, like the power of LRBTs, Manticores and Vendettas, but I'm wondering if there are any generally accepted layouts for how to build an IG army?

For example, how many platoons is good to take? Are Heavy Weapons teams good (they seem good)? Medusas also seem really neat. How many Infantry squads should I take in a platoon? Things like that.

There are many flavours to Imperial Guard, which is one reason why I personally really enjoy them.

In 5th edition, the main 3 styles of list you would see where footlist, mechlists and hybrid lists (a mix of both). Unfortunately with 6th edition, it seems footlists are infeasible, though if you don't care about winning then you can still do this!

However, since most people care a bit about winning (not necessarily WAAC, but they still care!) mech lists and hybrids seem to be the two types people are going for in this edition (so far anyway).

If you want a list that is quite fluffy but don't want to go full mech, then go for hybrid list. This usually entails a platoon, with a few infantry squads and perhaps a heavy weapons squads behind an Aegis Line (important for cover). The best heavy weapons have got to be autocannons, since they are cheap and get the job done against infantry and light vehicles. Then there are lascannons, which give you the vital long-range AT threat, especially against av14.
Once you have a platoon (or two), you can either max out the heavy slots with LRBT/Demolisher, Manticores, Griffons etc. and then get Vendetta flyers, or go for some of these mixed with Chimera Veterans with Plasma Guns or Melta (though Plasma Guns seem the best option in 6th edition for their improved rapid fire and ap2 buff on vehicles). Probably the latter is wiser because there are so many games now where you have to capture objectives, so it's probably wiser to have more troops on the table that can contest objectives.
Of course if you don't care much about fluff or just want a mech list for whatever reason, then instead of a platoon, you can take entirely Veterans in Chimeras kitted out with plasma, melta and maybe even autocannons as your troop choices, then max out the heavy support slots and fast attack slots.

Either way, I find the best 'take on all comers' lists have all of the following:

Long-Range Anti-Tank capability: This pretty much means lascannons, or in a pinch any str 9-10 ordnance, though ordnance isn't as reliable.
Anti-Infantry: Autocannons are your best friend here! Saturation can pretty much deal with anything apart from Terminators...Lasguns with FRFSRF orders are deadly en mass. Multilasers are pretty good too!
Anti-Horde: Templates! So stuff like the Leman Russ variants, Manticores, Griffons, Basilisks and so forth.
Anti-Transport: Again, autocannons prove their versatility by being able to both pop av12 vehicles and take out most infantry. Dual role.
Troops: To hold and contest objectives! If you don't have enough troops it's really risky as all your opponent has to do is kill them ad he/she has won! Unless of course you have agreed to play a simple annihilation type scenario.

Of course, having all this isn't fool-proof by any means, but as a basic gauge i've found it's really helpful when designing a list!
Of course, sometimes you will know who you are playing so you can list-tailor (people that say list-tailoring is 'wrong' are slowed, because we all do it to some degree by default), so this list is less helpful then. But when designing 'all-comers' lists I think it's helpful.

Anyway, good luck! Hope this helps!

*Probably should amend that list somewhat by adding 'Plasma', as it's so useful now in 6th - as versatile as the autocannon, with more power but less range. It's probably a good idea to have at least some plasma in a list now by all accounts.

To continue on the 'competitive' direction this thread has gone.

It is my opinion that guard either has to dabble with their clunky and possibly overcosted elite units in order to contest enemy placed objecitves, or take an ally.

To that end. Whatever you want to do for guard troop and support will be fine. Foot units or mech units will both be essentially equal. Neither of them can successfully move aggressively, so just do what you like.

Look at it this way. A CCS on foot with a master of ordnance and a lascannon and a regimental standard, with two platoons of guardsmen shooting willy nilly until someone looks at them, at which point they gain a terminator armor save will be just fine in the backfield. So will three veteran chimeras just waiting until a high value target gets near so they can unload plasma on them.

Master of ordnance isn't that bad. He still gets to use his BS4 to subtract from the scatter, and he's always in range of BiD, which means he gets to reroll the scatter die when he misses.

Even if he doesn't hit anything dead on, he still doesn't usually scatter by THAT much (with the order), which means that against larger targets, he's still hitting (and now at full strength against vehicles much more often), and if there's anything nearby, he has a decent chance of hitting that as well.

Certainly not an auto-include, but if you have a CCS that you're largely keeping stationary anyways (like it's in a CCS with a lascannon), he's not overcosted for what he does.

A battleforce or two is never a bad way to start a guard army. You get everything that's important (heavy weapons, bodies, command squad) as well as a free sentinel, which you can use early on in low points games. They're not amazing, but they get the job done, and can be incredibly flexible if used right. You usually take one as a 40 pt autocannon on legs, but I've heard of outflanking lascannons, and even the armored sents being used to bog down weaker foot units. Make sure to magnetize it, so that way you can use it in almost any form you want.

Another thing, chimeras are never a bad buy, but make sure you don't glue certain parts down. The chimera chassis is used for literally any vehicle in the guard codex besides your leman russes, your sentinels, and anything that flies. Everything else, from your hellhounds, to your basilisks, to your manticores, are all built on that chassis, and the main kit that makes a bog standard chimera is the same basic body as the more specialized variants. The piece I'm talking about, if you're confused, is the top half of the hull, that holds the turret in place, and that holds the lasguns on the back. Keep that loose, and you can eventually make it so that you can switch a single chassis around to whatever you need. Heck, I've even seen people convert them into a poor man's leman russ (one of which is posting in this thread)

For example, I took the leftover vanquisher barrel from the leman russ kit, as well as the smaller barrel you use for the crappy russ that ignores cover, and made a pretty nasty looking artillery barrel. I then used the pieces that make the sponsons into a blast shield for the weapon, and magnetized it so that the weapon would mount on the chassis. Still needs some work, but it works well enough when I need an artillery piece in friendly games.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The chimera chassis is used for literally any vehicle in the guard codex besides your leman russes, your sentinels, and anything that flies. Everything else, from your hellhounds, to your basilisks, to your manticores, are all built on that chassis, and the main kit that makes a bog standard chimera is the same basic body as the more specialized variants. The piece I'm talking about, if you're confused, is the top half of the hull, that holds the turret in place, and that holds the lasguns on the back. Keep that loose, and you can eventually make it so that you can switch a single chassis around to whatever you need.

This is good advice! You will save so much money and time doing this.

I've also found Basilisk chassis to be ideal, because you can slide the gun placement in and out without having to glue it in. This way, you can use it interchangeably for a Griffon, Manticore, Medusa, Hydra etc simply by slotting in the gun emplacement of your choosing. Very handy and no need to magnetise it!

I'm definitely going to be getting at least one Battle Force. Then again, since I'll need lots of Infantry/Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons Teams and at least 2 CCSs, I may as well just get 2. Basically I get a free Sentinel in each, and for 35 pts Sentinels are pretty decent, I think. Plus they look cool.

KOBossy wrote:I'm definitely going to be getting at least one Battle Force. Then again, since I'll need lots of Infantry/Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons Teams and at least 2 CCSs, I may as well just get 2. Basically I get a free Sentinel in each, and for 35 pts Sentinels are pretty decent, I think. Plus they look cool.

Make sure to magnetize the weapons! Sentinels have a lot of fun options. You haven't played guard until you've outflanked/infiltrated a few heavy flamer sents up to a green tide army

two battleforces is a surefire way to get a decent guard army going. After that initial buy, I would get the following things, a commissar, a leman russ battle tank (regular kit, demolishers are awesome, but you normally only want the variants in that box for higher point games) and probably a couple of chimeras (for the reasons I mentioned earlier). Everything else from there is up to personal preference, but those three things are all highly critical to how IG runs in one way or another, and will all be helpful in the initial stages, especially with proper use of magnets and clever modeling. By the way, did I mention magnets? You'll want those on everything. Magnetize the turret weapon on your tanks, magnetize pintle weapons, magnetize sponsons, magnetize upgrades like HK missles, magnetize heavy weapon tripods. MAGNETIZE. MAGNETIZE. MAGNETIZE!. It saves so much time and money for such a minimal effort, there's no excuse not to.

A couple things about the heavy weapon team kits while I'm thinking about it, you get 3 of every weapon option available per box (I.E. 3 lascannons, 3 autocannons, 3 mortars, 3 RL's etc) while you only get 3 bases and 3 weapon stands to use them with. Take your kneeling legs, and only use one per base. This is your operator. He shoots the weapon. Now, take a regular, standing guardsman, and use him as your loader/helper. This way, you get 6 gunners right out of the box, letting you use all 3 autocannons AND all three lascannons from a single box (providing you can get some extra bases) Space wolf players can always use ML's, as well as orks and most other space marine armies, so it probably wouldn't be hard at all to trade them for some spare bases or whatnot. As for the missing stands you'll need for your extra weapons, greenstuff some sandbags, walls, trenchlines, etc. and brace the weapon on that. You can even just take two standing guardsmen and have them carrying it, and eliminate the need for kneeling models entirely! Plus, it makes for cool looking teams that look far more interesting than two bums sitting around shooting all day.

Hope all that helps man! Guard is a really fun army to model and play, and once you get the hang of it you'll learn to love it!

MrMoustaffa wrote:

KOBossy wrote:I'm definitely going to be getting at least one Battle Force. Then again, since I'll need lots of Infantry/Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons Teams and at least 2 CCSs, I may as well just get 2. Basically I get a free Sentinel in each, and for 35 pts Sentinels are pretty decent, I think. Plus they look cool.

Make sure to magnetize the weapons! Sentinels have a lot of fun options. You haven't played guard until you've outflanked/infiltrated a few heavy flamer sents up to a green tide army

two battleforces is a surefire way to get a decent guard army going. After that initial buy, I would get the following things, a commissar, a leman russ battle tank (regular kit, demolishers are awesome, but you normally only want the variants in that box for higher point games) and probably a couple of chimeras (for the reasons I mentioned earlier). Everything else from there is up to personal preference, but those three things are all highly critical to how IG runs in one way or another, and will all be helpful in the initial stages, especially with proper use of magnets and clever modeling. By the way, did I mention magnets? You'll want those on everything. Magnetize the turret weapon on your tanks, magnetize pintle weapons, magnetize sponsons, magnetize upgrades like HK missles, magnetize heavy weapon tripods. MAGNETIZE. MAGNETIZE. MAGNETIZE!. It saves so much time and money for such a minimal effort, there's no excuse not to.

A couple things about the heavy weapon team kits while I'm thinking about it, you get 3 of every weapon option available per box (I.E. 3 lascannons, 3 autocannons, 3 mortars, 3 RL's etc) while you only get 3 bases and 3 weapon stands to use them with. Take your kneeling legs, and only use one per base. This is your operator. He shoots the weapon. Now, take a regular, standing guardsman, and use him as your loader/helper. This way, you get 6 gunners right out of the box, letting you use all 3 autocannons AND all three lascannons from a single box (providing you can get some extra bases) Space wolf players can always use ML's, as well as orks and most other space marine armies, so it probably wouldn't be hard at all to trade them for some spare bases or whatnot. As for the missing stands you'll need for your extra weapons, greenstuff some sandbags, walls, trenchlines, etc. and brace the weapon on that. You can even just take two standing guardsmen and have them carrying it, and eliminate the need for kneeling models entirely! Plus, it makes for cool looking teams that look far more interesting than two bums sitting around shooting all day.

Hope all that helps man! Guard is a really fun army to model and play, and once you get the hang of it you'll learn to love it!

Some very clever ideas here, especially on how to maximize what you get from each kit. I'll definitely be using them.

NWansbutter wrote:KOBossy, I think you need to first decide what style of Guard army you want to play, and this will help you determine what to buy. There are many different ways to play Imperial Guard -- you can have a standard gunline, a more mobile shooty list, mech, foot, assault-oriented ...

Any ideas on what style you think you might like?

As for basics, you can't really go wrong with Ailaros' advice. I think that a CCS plus a couple platoons (if you want foot guard) or a couple veteran squads (if you want mech or a smaller, elite force) is a good starting point.

I am a big believer in including units that you think are cool/fun even if they're not the best as this will increase your enjoyment of the army/hobby and in my experience none of the choices in the Guard codex are completely worthless. So if you're like me and you think Stormtroopers/Kasrkin are among the best-looking models out there, I say grab a box set of either kasrkin or storm troopers (whichever look you prefer) plus two blisters of the melta/plasma special weapon combo and then you have options to run either 2x melta or 2x plasma stormie squads (those are probably the two best options for storm troopers). Just an example, of course, I know some people don't like storm troopers.

But once you figure in some of the units you like, the list will start coming together.

Personally, I am not a fan of the "flavour of the year" nature of manticores so I am a proponent of the "old school" Leman Russ. I think that terminators are going to be more common in 6th edition given the nerf that power weapons got, so Demolishers are even more worth their points than before. Can't go far wrong with standard LRBTs either, and I've had good success with Basilisks -- which combination of tanks you take will depend on personal taste, since you can't take them all. But I would offer up Demolishers, LRBTs, and Basilisks as three that you can't go far wrong with. I prefer to keep them cheap, myself, with hull heavy bolters or heavy flamers and no sponsons.

You may want to think about your army's fluff a bit, too, when considering purchases. For example, my Guard army are very religious-like so tried to make them a bit more Sisters of Battle-ish in the weapons they take, so lots of meltas and flame weapons. This meant I put heavy flamers on all my vehicles instead of heavy bolters to fit the fluff. Works out pretty well ... nothing will beat seeing the look on my friend's face when my Basilisk with its main gun destroyed, drove up to his dismounted Dire Avengers and gave them a blast of heavy flamer!


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schadenfreude wrote:Medi pack=no

It's not always useless. I've found it pays huge dividends in a close-combat oriented CCS (especially one with Straken). Might be worthwhile in a CCS with 3x plasmas, too (I've never tried that, though).

If you take plasma guns then yes its worth it. It has saved my ass from "Get's Hot!" a lot of times.

Same here, the vets at my club like to do this with a x3 plasma, medpack CCS in a chimera. With the slay the warlord thing making it where losing your HQ a victory point, that medic got that much more useful. Saving your plasma guys is just icing on the cake.

I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

For 5 points less, you can get a Meltagun which has better strength and lower AP, meaning its better for not only taking out vehicles, but heavy troops too. Plus, Plasma has the chance of overheating and killing the bearer, and for 15 points, a weapon that can potentially kill you doesn't seem like a great investment, especially since the standard IG save is 5+ (33% chance you'll die and end up wasting 15 pts).

The only benefits I see is that Plasma has a better range and you get 2 shots if you're within 12", but really, I see the latter as just another opportunity to roll a one and make that 15 point investment worthless.

They just sound too risky for the payoff, since you can get other weapons to do the same thing possibly better and for cheaper.

KOBossy wrote:I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

For 5 points less, you can get a Meltagun which has better strength and lower AP, meaning its better for not only taking out vehicles, but heavy troops too. Plus, Plasma has the chance of overheating and killing the bearer, and for 15 points, a weapon that can potentially kill you doesn't seem like a great investment, especially since the standard IG save is 5+ (33% chance you'll die and end up wasting 15 pts).

The only benefits I see is that Plasma has a better range and you get 2 shots if you're within 12", but really, I see the latter as just another opportunity to roll a one and make that 15 point investment worthless.

They just sound too risky for the payoff, since you can get other weapons to do the same thing possibly better and for cheaper.

They were alright before, but now they go much better.

With the new rules you can move and rapid fire/long shot a plasma gun. So you can move 6 inches closer/farther to you target. Also they can damage vehicles now, since glances can be deadly, and they now do +1 on the roll on the pen chart. You can do 3 S: 7 AP: 2 hits at 24", or 6 S: 7 AP: 2 hits. So you can keep a father distance away then you would with with a melta. I have killed my fare share of Hammer Heads & Terminators with plamas thanks to this these advantages.

Also IMHO if you give your CCS Plasmas, then you should also give them Carapace armor, a Medkit , and put them in a Chimera. . Not only do they get they get a a chimera for protection against light arms. A 4+ armor save, and a FNP save. Even with the changes to FNP that is still really good.

Makarov wrote:

KOBossy wrote:I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

For 5 points less, you can get a Meltagun which has better strength and lower AP, meaning its better for not only taking out vehicles, but heavy troops too. Plus, Plasma has the chance of overheating and killing the bearer, and for 15 points, a weapon that can potentially kill you doesn't seem like a great investment, especially since the standard IG save is 5+ (33% chance you'll die and end up wasting 15 pts).

The only benefits I see is that Plasma has a better range and you get 2 shots if you're within 12", but really, I see the latter as just another opportunity to roll a one and make that 15 point investment worthless.

They just sound too risky for the payoff, since you can get other weapons to do the same thing possibly better and for cheaper.

They were alright before, but now they go much better.

With the new rules you can move and rapid fire/long shot a plasma gun. So you can move 6 inches closer/farther to you target. Also they can damage vehicles now, since glances can be deadly, and they now do +1 on the roll on the pen chart. You can do 3 S: 7 AP: 2 hits at 24", or 6 S: 7 AP: 2 hits. So you can keep a father distance away then you would with with a melta. I have killed my fare share of Hammer Heads & Terminators with plamas thanks to this these advantages.

Also IMHO if you give your CCS Plasmas, then you should also give them Carapace armor, a Medkit , and put them in a Chimera. . Not only do they get they get a a chimera for protection against light arms. A 4+ armor save, and a FNP save. Even with the changes to FNP that is still really good.

Yeah but the risk of rolling a 1 and failing your armor save is just too high for 15 pts, especially with IG who unfortunately get a 5+. That's 66% chance your weapon could become a 15 point drain. I can see the benefits on a Space Marine where your chances of failing are only 33% (3+ save).

4 Plasmas on a CCS would be 110 pts, plus 30 for a Medi-pack, and another 55 for a Chimera. That's 195 pts spent on a 5 man squad that isn't overly hard to take out, and can still potentially self destruct. Even with the Chimera, if it explodes, that's 5 5+ saves you have to make, not great odds, meaning you might even die before using your Plasma. It just seems like other options are better, cheaper and less risky.

That's why you take 10 to 20 of the things, and 10 autocannons, and some leman russes, etc.

The fact is that it's S7 shooting, that's got good range, doubles its shots up close, ignores armor saves, rolls higher on the damage table, and is generally more flexible than a melta gun. Plus, since you can glance vehicles to death now, plasma makes a good anti transport weapon, which we're probably still going to see a lot of in 6th. And since they synergize really well with autocannons, another really effective weapon guard can take, it makes it a no brainer, at least for most situations.

Melta still has a place, but it's a more specialized and defensive weapon now, whereas plasma has the range and power to reach out and touch someone. Yes, plasma has the chance to blow the guy up, but if you're relying on just one plasma gun to kill something, you're playing the wrong army. Bring at least 10 and see if they're as much of a "waste" then

KOBossy wrote:

Makarov wrote:

KOBossy wrote:I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

For 5 points less, you can get a Meltagun which has better strength and lower AP, meaning its better for not only taking out vehicles, but heavy troops too. Plus, Plasma has the chance of overheating and killing the bearer, and for 15 points, a weapon that can potentially kill you doesn't seem like a great investment, especially since the standard IG save is 5+ (33% chance you'll die and end up wasting 15 pts).

The only benefits I see is that Plasma has a better range and you get 2 shots if you're within 12", but really, I see the latter as just another opportunity to roll a one and make that 15 point investment worthless.

They just sound too risky for the payoff, since you can get other weapons to do the same thing possibly better and for cheaper.

They were alright before, but now they go much better.

With the new rules you can move and rapid fire/long shot a plasma gun. So you can move 6 inches closer/farther to you target. Also they can damage vehicles now, since glances can be deadly, and they now do +1 on the roll on the pen chart. You can do 3 S: 7 AP: 2 hits at 24", or 6 S: 7 AP: 2 hits. So you can keep a father distance away then you would with with a melta. I have killed my fare share of Hammer Heads & Terminators with plamas thanks to this these advantages.

Also IMHO if you give your CCS Plasmas, then you should also give them Carapace armor, a Medkit , and put them in a Chimera. . Not only do they get they get a a chimera for protection against light arms. A 4+ armor save, and a FNP save. Even with the changes to FNP that is still really good.

Yeah but the risk of rolling a 1 and failing your armor save is just too high for 15 pts, especially with IG who unfortunately get a 5+. That's 66% chance your weapon could become a 15 point drain. I can see the benefits on a Space Marine where your chances of failing are only 33% (3+ save).

4 Plasmas on a CCS would be 110 pts, plus 30 for a Medi-pack, and another 55 for a Chimera. That's 195 pts spent on a 5 man squad that isn't overly hard to take out, and can still potentially self destruct. Even with the Chimera, if it explodes, that's 5 5+ saves you have to make, not great odds, meaning you might even die before using your Plasma. It just seems like other options are better, cheaper and less risky.

Or you could take Carapace armor too/instead of medipack. It is a 1/6 chance that you take a wound with each shot. So lets say you do the max 6 shots. You might take a wound. Then you get your 4+ armor, and FNP save. I have played a dozen games with this style, and in 1 game have I ever had guardsmen die from plasma. There are two main reason to take CCS, the fact that they can take 4 special weapons and/or the commander. Either way you should protect your already fragile investmentr CCS for either their weapons or, the commander.

MrMoustaffa wrote:That's why you take 10 to 20 of the things, and 10 autocannons, and some leman russes, etc.

The fact is that it's S7 shooting, that's got good range, doubles its shots up close, ignores armor saves, rolls higher on the damage table, and is generally more flexible than a melta gun. Plus, since you can glance vehicles to death now, plasma makes a good anti transport weapon, which we're probably still going to see a lot of in 6th. And since they synergize really well with autocannons, another really effective weapon guard can take, it makes it a no brainer, at least for most situations.

Melta still has a place, but it's a more specialized and defensive weapon now, whereas plasma has the range and power to reach out and touch someone. Yes, plasma has the chance to blow the guy up, but if you're relying on just one plasma gun to kill something, you're playing the wrong army. Bring at least 10 and see if they're as much of a "waste" then

That too.


Honestly its up to you.Your army, your rules. But I still say its a worthy investment.

But, with that said if you take a CCS its a good idea to deck them out with some special weapons. If not plasmas, take meltas like you said.

The way I'm thinking of it, I want my CCS to be long range specialists. Regimental Standard, Master of Ordnance and Veteran Weapons Team with Lascannon. Since the MoO can't use Artillery Bombardment if he moves, it makes sense to just sit put in the back and kill stuff. Put them in cover and let the bombs fly.

I guess the reason I'm weariest of taking Plasma Guns is that, well...I roll pretty terribly. 1s show up rather commonly. For others it seems like it might be a decent investment of points but for me, I have a strong feeling I'll regret it.

KOBossy wrote:I guess the reason I'm weariest of taking Plasma Guns is that, well...I roll pretty terribly. 1s show up rather commonly. For others it seems like it might be a decent investment of points but for me, I have a strong feeling I'll regret it.

You won't.

And this may seem harsh, but if you are weary of losing troops then the Guard probably isn't the army for you! You will often take massive casualties which is perfectly acceptable as Guard are a meatgrinder. If you start losing huge amounts of of infantry and start panicking then you will not be successful. You have to keep it in perspective: Guard units are generally speaking dirt cheap, we ultimately win by rolling more dice than opponents!
If you have 3 veterans with plasma rapid firing against a terminator squad, that's 6 shots. On average 4 will probably hit. You will probably get 1 roll of a '1' on average with a chance to save, which you probably won't make. So you will probably have 1 dead veteran. However, you scored 4 hits. And with 2's to wound there is a reasonable chance they will all wound. 4 wounds, they get to roll 5+ invulnerable saves. You are looking at about 2-3 dead terminators. Of course, if you are lucky with remaining lasgun shots and/or multilaser shots on the chimera you might be able to bring down another one. Congratulations, you've just essentially neutralised a 200pts+ squad and have only lost 1 veteran in the process.

Does this still really seem that bad?

Also, plasma guns got better against light vehicles with the ap2 +1 to vehicle damage, which gives them more flexibility. And they now have more range. They are essentially autocannons with less range and a minor annoyance in 'gets hot!', but are much more powerful with ap2.

Melta is still useful, but i'd only ever take it in games where I can fit a 2:1 ratio of plasma to melta. Or I may just continue to drop melta entirely tbh. Honestly, lascannons do the job of AT better now in my opinion. And can do it at long-range, especially when you twin-link the puppies with orders. And then there are Vendettas....

Basically, relax. Guardsmen are expendable (within reason! You still have to think about what to do with each unit!), so don't panic about taking some heavy casualties.

KOBossy wrote:I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

Two shots is enormous. Not only is a single plasma gun cheaper than two meltas, but a single plasma gun takes up only a single weapon slot. That means that you can pack a lot more killing power into the same squad. A LOT more. Vets with 3x meltas will put down about 2 hits on terminators, while vets with 3x plasma and a pair of plasma pistols will most likely put down 5 or 6. That's up to three times as much killing power as the melta alternative. Extra cost in both risk and in points is worth it for this kind of power.

Furthermore, as mentioned, a meltagun isnt' doing anything to a target over 18" away. A plasma gun is able to threaten things 30" away. If that's the difference between killing that winged DP and having said DP charge in and blow up a russ, that might well be a pretty big difference to your game.

And even on top of that, you can now glance vehicles to death, which makes the plasma gun a serious competitor (especially because of its range) against any vehicle up to AV12.

Really plasma guns are better in every way except two. The first is that they are, technically, more expensive, so if you're having problems with points, the meltaguns are always technically cheaper, and it would be better to have a meltagun than nothing. Secondly, if you have some sort of special delivery system, they are able to handle serious tanks at assault range. Of course, without a way to guarantee that said range happens, it's going to be tough to use them properly.

So unless you're deepstriking, or forming a melta hedge, plasma guns are just plain old better, and better against more targets, than any of their competitors are.

I think that plasma is definately the go to special weapon for guard in 6th edition. Sure, they are more expensive and dangerous, but they are just a better rounded weapon than the alternatives. Just look at the target pools that other special weapons have.

Meltaguns
Really great against vehicles, but you need to be up close and personal. As already stated, against heavy infantry the melta is only putting out a couple of wounds compared with plasma. The new glance rules, the buff to blasts, and W1 hitting chimeras, this really makes you think twice about meltagun, as well as alleviates the overall need for them.

Grenade launchers
One shot str6 ap4. The only thing I these would be useful for is anti-light vehicle and 4+/5+ infantry. Even then, with veterans its only putting put 3 shots. The chimera multi-laser does a better job against vehicles, and its heavy bolter covers ap4. Plasma guns can threaten 2+ as well as lighter infantry. No contest here.
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Sniper rifles
Precision shot and rending sound nice, but anything that the sniper rifle can do can be done elsewhere in the codex more effectively. I think that barrage sniping is a much better alternative. Again, the guard codex has some really great options with high strength blasts that can potentially snipe infantry as well as threaten armour. Another bonus of not taking sniper rifles is that you can fit in more plasma guns.

Flamer
Str 4 ap5 auto-hit template. Its really not all that bad, but with the nerf to cover, overwatch, and the abundance of blasts guard players are likely taking, I think it is much easier to deal with 5+ bodies at range.

Plasma guns can do pretty much anything. Just be sure to give them the proper support against things like flyers, landraiders and light infantry. Most likely, the choices that you make in others slots are already covering these areas anyway. Its a well rounded gun that the situation almost always calls for.

Ailaros wrote:

KOBossy wrote:I'm sorry but I STILL don't understand the reason Plasma Guns are so great.

Two shots is enormous. Not only is a single plasma gun cheaper than two meltas, but a single plasma gun takes up only a single weapon slot. That means that you can pack a lot more killing power into the same squad. A LOT more. Vets with 3x meltas will put down about 2 hits on terminators, while vets with 3x plasma and a pair of plasma pistols will most likely put down 5 or 6. That's up to three times as much killing power as the melta alternative. Extra cost in both risk and in points is worth it for this kind of power.

Furthermore, as mentioned, a meltagun isnt' doing anything to a target over 18" away. A plasma gun is able to threaten things 30" away. If that's the difference between killing that winged DP and having said DP charge in and blow up a russ, that might well be a pretty big difference to your game.

And even on top of that, you can now glance vehicles to death, which makes the plasma gun a serious competitor (especially because of its range) against any vehicle up to AV12.

Really plasma guns are better in every way except two. The first is that they are, technically, more expensive, so if you're having problems with points, the meltaguns are always technically cheaper, and it would be better to have a meltagun than nothing. Secondly, if you have some sort of special delivery system, they are able to handle serious tanks at assault range. Of course, without a way to guarantee that said range happens, it's going to be tough to use them properly.

So unless you're deepstriking, or forming a melta hedge, plasma guns are just plain old better, and better against more targets, than any of their competitors are.

Hmmm, the bold text especially has me intrigued. You make some very good points. I hadn't considered that it takes up only 1 weapon slot for less points than 2 Meltas.

Yep, i would only take melta on stormtroopers, and squads deep striking in from vendettas/valkyries to go tank hunting. Otherwise, they're just too short a range and too specialized to worry about. 2 deepstriking 5 man stormie squads with x2 melta, and some SWS /PCs/CCS/Vet squads riding in vendettas will probably be all you need, and they will all be mobile enough to make it count.

Vets in chimeras, vets on foot, and most other infantry units on foort or in chimeras are just better off with plasma. It's just so effective you'd be crazy not to take it, and unless you just really need flamers for hordes (which you can handle with other choices like artillery, russes, and hull mounted flamers) plasma will handle just about any role you need.

Does that mean I should consider changing the Meltas I currently plan on putting in my Infantry Squads to Plasma as well? Or just keep the Plasma to Veteran Squads?

Back in 5th, the only times you would put a melta in an infantry squad was if you were A) running power blobs, or B) running an iron fist list and didn't like using vets.

In 6th, there might be uses, but with the way rapid fire changed, even in powerblobs, I'll probably take plasma over melta. Used to be they were the same range when moving, so you may as well take the cheaper weapon that won't kill the user. Now though, the plasma remains longer range, and when you have to stick special weapons towards the back to keep them from getting killed, you need all the range you can get. I'll be playing around with power blobs quite a bit in 6th, regardless of what other people say, because I still think there will be ways to make them work. Whether plasma or melta will be the main choice though, remains to be seen...

I wouldn't give platoon guardsmen squads any weapon upgrades, unless it's for a special reason or you've got 5 points left over and a model with a flamer/GL that's sitting on your shelf like the fat kid that always gets picked last for sports at school. A PG that hits half the time, and has a chance to kill your own man, whilst simultaneously reducing the effectiveness of FRFSRF is not worth the 3 guardsmen it replaces.

Barksdale wrote:Grenade launchers
One shot str6 ap4. The only thing I these would be useful for is anti-light vehicle and 4+/5+ infantry. Even then, with veterans its only putting put 3 shots. The chimera multi-laser does a better job against vehicles, and its heavy bolter covers ap4. Plasma guns can threaten 2+ as well as lighter infantry. No contest here.

No! Wrong! the GL is a niche weapon, and that niche is your PCS. Keeps them cheap, keeps them mobile. It can crack light transports or lay down lasgun strength (woot!) blasts, which can do some bad things to units like wyches and boyz, and, if you're lucky, can even kill a couple of Marines. The more wounds you cause, the more saves they'll fail. Also, you're comparing the GL, Sniper Rifle and Flamer to a weapon 3 times the cost - of course the PG will win out. I agree, a PG is the weapon of choice on a bs4 model, but not bs3.