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I'm not sure if comparing a unit to a piece of wargear would be a valid way of claiming what they intended. Generally, unit names tend to be inclusive "Space Marine, Space Marine Sergeant, Space Marine Chapter Master."

With the way the FAQ is written with Blood Angels Librarian (not listening the unit entry, then the codex it came from," i think you would include the Furioso, especially given the Mastery Level reasoning I gave in my above post

For a different example then - Fabius Bile. Does "Chaos Space Marines" apply to EVERY UNIT IN THE CODEX that isnt a daemon, or does it apply only to the unit called Chaos Space marines?

The latter.

[prefix] thing != thing. Every single time this has ever come up. To say otherwise you would have to have amn a tual rule supporting it, as opposed to a FAQ which, when read literally, does not do so.

You know what I find funny. if a rule said all BA Librarians get hit. all these folks would say that included the Furioso because it has Librarian in its name and its in the BA codex.

Shrug.

No, they wouldnt. Because they are separate units.

Stop strawmanning, as it is not only OT but in this case highly insulting.

ok then lets get OT. The FQA saids nothing about units. It saids Librarian.

A Librarian's unit type is Infantry not Librarian.

So it doesn't matter if their two diff units or not its if their Librarians and both are.

Unit Type /= Unit name

Have you read this thread? That was covered very early on.

RAW you are still wrong.

Be real Raw doesn't say i'm wrong or right. or for you either. RAW doesn't say what counts as a BA Librarian that is why this is debated.

Yes it does.

A BA Librarian is a Librarian in the BA codex
A BA Furioso Librarian is a Furioso Librarian in the BA Codex

Furioso librarian /= librarian, unless you are saying a storm bolter is equal to a bolter

Please see the tenets of this forum, as "nuhuh youre not right" breaks one of the key ones.

It is debated because people dont like the rule

sigh what i'm saying is

A Reclusiarch is still a Chaplin even thought by what you say his unit type is not.

and a storm bolter is not the same but a comdi-bolter is

By your way of thinking then he has a power weapon not maul and his powers work on allies.

Because the FQA saids chaplins not Reclusiarch

nosferatu1001 wrote:No worries. Just remember - this is meant to be a friendly, if occasionally heated, discussion on what the rulebook ACTUALLY says.

That way if you dont agree with the rules, you at least can explain the difference between the written and what you would prefer.

IN this case there is *clear* precedent that <prefix> "thing" isnt the same as <thing> - a storm bolter cannot use specialist rounds, a furioso librarian isnt allowed to swap powers.

A storm bolter cannot use special issue ammo because it is not a boltgun. The basic wargear for a Sternguard is a boltgun, and a storm bolter is a completely different weapon. Can a combi-bolter fire special issue ammo? Yes, because it is an upgraded boltgun. A bolt pistol is not a boltgun, neither is a Heavy Bolter. Apples and oranges.

A Furioso Librarian is exactly that, a Librarian in Dreadnought armor. An Epistolary uses the Statline for a Librarian but uses the special rules for an Epistolary. The Furioso Librarian uses the Statline for a Furioso Dreadnought but uses the Special Rules for a Furioso Librarian. Still a Librarian.

Unit name, not unit type. Get it right.

Stop strawmanning as well.

A BA Furioso Librarian is NEVER a BA librarian, however a reclusiarch is a chaplain.

There is a glaring difference you are choosing not to see.

Stop saying 'strawmanning'. You are using it incorrectly, and also to bully other forum members and muddy the waters.

You are wrong.

A Blood Angel Furioso Librarian is a Librarian, who is a blood angel. To claim that it is written otherwise is a blatant falsehood.

You can choose to interpret it otherwise, but that makes you wrong.

Librarians who are blood angels can swap their powers as per the 6th ed FAQ.

/thread

Only "/thread" for those that choose not to play by the rules.

No, I wasnt. The peerson was creating an argument that "by my reasoning" a reclusiarch was not a chaplain, and then dismissing it. Which is creating a strawman argument to then defeat.

It isnt bullying to call people on their fallacies, same as I'm poinitng out your error.

Is a Blood Angel Furioso Librarian a Blood Angel Librarian, as specified by the FAQ?

No. To claim otherwise is a blatant falsehood, to use your terms.

You dont "upgrade" a librarian to a furioso librarian, they are not the same unit name, dont share the same antecedent, and dont even have similar upgrades - no mastery 2 upgrade, for a start.

You have created a falsehood and claimed it is RAW; that makes you wrong.

/thread, given noone has given any actual rules otherwise as the tenets of this forum reqiures. If you wish to continue, please provide some actual rules. It would enable actual debate.

RxGhost wrote:Stop saying 'strawmanning'. You are using it incorrectly, and also to bully other forum members and muddy the waters.

You are wrong.

A Blood Angel Furioso Librarian is a Librarian, who is a blood angel. To claim that it is written otherwise is a blatant falsehood.

You can choose to interpret it otherwise, but that makes you wrong.

Librarians who are blood angels can swap their powers as per the 6th ed FAQ.

/thread

Edited by Manchu.

A librarian is a librarian whether he is wearing power armor, terminator armor, jump pack, or even encased in a dreadnaught.

You're choosing to ignore the rules in favor of your own interpretation, how is not "/thread" for you?

You don't get to be right because you shouted the longest or loudest, this isn't politics.

The shared antecedent in this case is irrelevant, what it was before doesn't matter because now it's a librarian and the rules for blood angel librarians listed in the 6th Ed FAQ apply so it can choose its powers from the main rule book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevlar wrote:You might as well give up arguing with nosfertu. He is one of those "is not/is too" types that always has to have the last word as if his opinion is more important than everyone else. Most people grow out of that after 13 or 14 years. Some don't.

A librarian is a librarian whether he is wearing power armor, terminator armor, jump pack, or even encased in a dreadnaught.

Oh, I know. But isn't this much more stimulating?

Ah, ok, so you dont have any rules to contribute, just insults and agreeing with others insults?

I'm right in this case because i've provided rules and precedent which show that [prefix] "thing" is not the same as "thing". You've provided zip

broken. record.

Its you against the world man, keep fighting the good fight.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strawman argument, because LH for PM2 is the number of powers a turn you can use, so is always PML2 as an epistolary

They also never stated model type. Ever. Just name

A BA Librarian is a BA librarian. A furioso is a BA Furioso Librarian

Just as a storm bolter cannot use special ammunition because it isnt a bolter, a BA Furioso Librarian is NOT a BA Librarian

This is about as RAW as it can get with the bonus of an example. While RAW, I would not be opposed to playing it out that they do get to swap as I see this as being the same as the Doom of Malantai argument that it did not get to use the zoanthrope force field thing because it was not a zoanthrope.

It took a FAQ to rectify that clearly, it will take a FAQ for this as well.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strawman argument, because LH for PM2 is the number of powers a turn you can use, so is always PML2 as an epistolary

They also never stated model type. Ever. Just name

A BA Librarian is a BA librarian. A furioso is a BA Furioso Librarian

Just as a storm bolter cannot use special ammunition because it isnt a bolter, a BA Furioso Librarian is NOT a BA Librarian

This is about as RAW as it can get with the bonus of an example. While RAW, I would not be opposed to playing it out that they do get to swap as I see this as being the same as the Doom of Malantai argument that it did not get to use the zoanthrope force field thing because it was not a zoanthrope.

It took a FAQ to rectify that clearly, it will take a FAQ for this as well.

It may all depend on if you can or cannot separate furioso and librarian types. From furioso librarian.

If you have a jump mc you have a jump unit and a mc unit. Is furioso librarian the same or different? It looks to me that it is the same. The raw is not really clear since the wording can be taken in different contexts creating several arguments for and against a librarian in the faq including furioso librarians.

A furioso libby gets 2 psychic powers from the c:ba book. A librarian gets 2 psychic powers from c:ba. Mephiston however does not get to pick his powers which is why he could have been singled out to be included as well as the fact that he does not have librarian listed in his name.

rogueeyes wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Strawman argument, because LH for PM2 is the number of powers a turn you can use, so is always PML2 as an epistolary

They also never stated model type. Ever. Just name

A BA Librarian is a BA librarian. A furioso is a BA Furioso Librarian

Just as a storm bolter cannot use special ammunition because it isnt a bolter, a BA Furioso Librarian is NOT a BA Librarian

This is about as RAW as it can get with the bonus of an example. While RAW, I would not be opposed to playing it out that they do get to swap as I see this as being the same as the Doom of Malantai argument that it did not get to use the zoanthrope force field thing because it was not a zoanthrope.

It took a FAQ to rectify that clearly, it will take a FAQ for this as well.

It may all depend on if you can or cannot separate furioso and librarian types. From furioso librarian.

If you have a jump mc you have a jump unit and a mc unit. Is furioso librarian the same or different? It looks to me that it is the same. The raw is not really clear since the wording can be taken in different contexts creating several arguments for and against a librarian in the faq including furioso librarians.

A furioso libby gets 2 psychic powers from the c:ba book. A librarian gets 2 psychic powers from c:ba. Mephiston however does not get to pick his powers which is why he could have been singled out to be included as well as the fact that he does not have librarian listed in his name.

Well I would point to the Doom of Mylanta (hahaha) as an example.

It actually had the zoanthrope special force field rule in his entry, yet it was argued he was not a zoanthrope thus the FAQ. Was it a silly argument as the intention was clear? Yes, but it was supported by the RAW 100%. The same with the named hive tyrant guy.

In this case, yes the specific rules for the Furiosus Libby match the BA Libby. However the FAQ is explicit in naming specific units of which Furioso Libby is not included. In this Nosfer is supported 100% with the RAW and barring an updated FAQ to include Furioso Libbies by name, they cannot swap out powers.

Kevlar wrote:broken. record.

Its you against the world man, keep fighting the good fight.

A broken record that is right.

You cannot separate Furioso from Librarian because they are proper nouns, a composite one at that. Furioso Librarian is a singular phrase that cannot be separated.

Can the "pro" side provide any rules to back up their stance? Just once this thread?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:broken. record.

Its you against the world man, keep fighting the good fight.

A broken record that is right.

You cannot separate Furioso from Librarian because they are proper nouns, a composite one at that. Furioso Librarian is a singular phrase that cannot be separated.

Can the "pro" side provide any rules to back up their stance? Just once this thread?

The bolter/heavy bolter/storm bolter example was the nail in the coffin against them. Using the Doom of Atlanta precedence was just shoveling the dirt on.

Like I said though, it is 100% RAW supported, but acknowledge it is probably an oversight that will be corrected unless they interject a crazy fluff reason such as they are soooooo ancient you can't teach a vampire new tricks.

Given they already made the frankly bizarre decision that you cant give any upgrades to a furioso libby, i wouldnt be surprised if they ruled against it. There has to be a reason to take the squishy marine...

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:broken. record.

Its you against the world man, keep fighting the good fight.

A broken record that is right.

You cannot separate Furioso from Librarian because they are proper nouns, a composite one at that. Furioso Librarian is a singular phrase that cannot be separated.

Can the "pro" side provide any rules to back up their stance? Just once this thread?

The bolter/heavy bolter/storm bolter example was the nail in the coffin against them. Using the Doom of Atlanta precedence was just shoveling the dirt on.

Like I said though, it is 100% RAW supported, but acknowledge it is probably an oversight that will be corrected unless they interject a crazy fluff reason such as they are soooooo ancient you can't teach a vampire new tricks.

Sept when you add combi bolter

And afain the fqa does not list unit it saids BA labrarains. It list meph because he can not norm. change powers.

Please read the rules of the forum, and try to use correct spelling, punctuation and grammar. Makes your posts easier to read

Combi bolters are IN RULES a bolter + another weapon. If you'd read the rules, that is.

BA Librarian IS THE UNIT NAME. Same as "Mephiston" is the unit name.

If it has librarian in its name, if it has powers like a librarian, if it functions like a librarian, if it gets negatively affected like a librarian, then for all intents and purposes its a librarian.

Also no where in the Codex: Blood Angels does it have a unit called " Blood Angels Librarian". Why would you need to say Blood Angels if its in the FAQ that governs blood angels? maybe they did that to prevent people from assuming it only covers the unit "Librarian" in the codex

This has no bearing on the Furioso argument, but the storm bolter thing is annoying me. A storm bolter not being allowed to use special ammunition has nothing to do with the fact that it isn't a "bolter", it has to do with it's weapon profile. A bolter is rapid-fire, all special ammunition is rapid-fire. A storm bolter is assault, that is why it cannot be used with rapid-fire ammunition. The weapon's name having the word "storm" in it is irrelevant.

Oh, please show me the rule for the special ammunition that says it can't be used in an assault weapon, because I have certainly never seen that rule before.

It's iffy. The FAQ says "Blood Angels Librarian", which sounds like just that one specific unit. They did say it includes Mephiston, though, which implies maybe they meant it in the broader sense.

Of course, they also have another FAQ answer where they specifically forbid Furioso Libbies from taking any vehicle upgrades, so maybe the intention is that they don't get all the same normal options regular dreads OR regular librarians get.

I could see GW going either way on it. As a BA player, I'm going to err on the side of caution until GW or INAT FAQs it. It's worth emailing GW. There are enough oversights in the FAQs that they're going to have to do another round.

In the rule book, does it state a Psyker can swap his/her/its powers for any in the rulebook?
If explictly "Yes" then I would allow an opponent to swap