Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was at a tournament once where this was raised in the rules pack, they wanted to avoid any abuses by Wolves players. If you're planning this alliance for a tournament you'd be wise to contact the organisers in advance to check that they'd allow it.

What gets silly about arguing if the Primary Detachment dictates which "army" you are deploying:

Grey Knights can take Draigo and two Paladins and meet the FOC requirements and then build the rest of their army as an Allied Detachment if they so desire and be a "Grey Knight" army.

If you have a whole 3 models in your primary detachment, is the RAW really that you are deploying that army?

I'll dig through the rule book again, but I don't see anything defining what an "army" is the first few times through it. I'd contend that "army" in the Codexes means "force" since they are all 5th edition Codexes, and "army" now includes units from different Codexes.

This line of reasoning is working for other YMDC discussions (such as Saga of the Hunter granting the Outflank USR) so I don't see why it wouldn't be the case here.

Don't most space wolf players claim "Leaders of the Pack" only applies to HQ choices because the asterisk only appears next to HQ choices on the FOC we are shown?

Because that is the prevailing opinion I have seen, and if that's the case, there's no asterisk on the HQ section of an allied detachment.

Drunkspleen wrote:Don't most space wolf players claim "Leaders of the Pack" only applies to HQ choices because the asterisk only appears next to HQ choices on the FOC we are shown?

I can't speak for most, just myself... but I assume it only applies to HQ characters because the FAQ says so.

So can anyone show me where allied detachments are in my SW codex? Oh yea, it is in the ARMY list section.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:So can anyone show me where allied detachments are in my SW codex? Oh yea, it is in the ARMY list section.

Ok... and...?

insaniak wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:So can anyone show me where allied detachments are in my SW codex? Oh yea, it is in the ARMY list section.

Ok... and...?

What you are allowed to take is an allied detachment. What said allied detachment consists of is a seperate army chosen from the army list of their respective codex. Hence Leaders of the Pack applies because the allied detachment consists of a seperate army.

That's one interpretation, yes.

Find a RAW that defines it to be a BA army with SW "tacked on".

It's not an exception. It's a rule that only applies to Space Wolves armies.

It's an exception to an exception. Which is about as convoluted as you can expect.

You get one HQ choice per HQ slot. EXCEPT if you're Space Wolves, and then you get two choices per slot. EXCEPT if you're allies space wolves, then you still get just one. Huh?

It's much easier to remember that SW always get 2.

And you do NOT have any reason to make this ruling other than a subjective judgement.

Sure... but the Primary army is Blood Angels. So it's a Blood Angels army with Space Wolves tacked on.

NO. No, the primary detachment is BA. The allied detachment is space wolves. Since you're trying to make a RAW argument based on the wording "A Space Wolves Army", please find me a rule that defines exactly what a Space Wolves Army is.

Grugknuckle wrote:It's an exception to an exception. Which is about as convoluted as you can expect.

You get one HQ choice per HQ slot. EXCEPT if you're Space Wolves, and then you get two choices per slot. EXCEPT if you're allies space wolves, then you still get just one. Huh?

Yes, congratulations.... you've proven that you can build it up to be more complicated than it actually is.

Because what it really means under my interpretation is that your primary detachment gets one HQ choice per HQ slot, unless they are Space Wolves.

Since you're trying to make a RAW argument...

Am I?

I'm fairly sure I pointed out earlier in the thread that I don't consider this a RAW issue. The rules don't define naming conventions for armies. So I revert to basic language. The Primary Detachment is described as the main part of your army, with the Allied Detachment being something added on as an extra. As such, the Primary Detachment is what defines the army.

The other possible interpretation that I see is that the army is comprised of both Primary and Allied detachments... in which case a Blood Angels force with Space Wolves allies is neither a Blood Angels nor a Space Wolves army... it's a 'Blood Angels and Space Wolves army'... In which case the Leaders of the Pack rule not only won't apply to allied Wolves, it also won't apply to Space Wolf forces with an Allied Detachment.

After reading Codex SW and the BRB on Allies it's clear.

Your main force is your army and the other is your ally. "From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up....."

So we have an army and we have allies. Pick your poison.

If you want 2 HQ's per 1 HQ choice, then you should play SW and take allies with them.

If you want SW's as your ally then you are only getting 1 HQ.

MJThurston wrote:After reading Codex SW and the BRB on Allies it's clear.

Your main force is your army and the other is your ally. "From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up....."

So we have an army and we have allies. Pick your poison.

If you want 2 HQ's per 1 HQ choice, then you should play SW and take allies with them.

If you want SW's as your ally then you are only getting 1 HQ.

Yep totally agree with this, your main force is your army selection and then you take allies for your army.

MJThurston wrote:After reading Codex SW and the BRB on Allies it's clear.

Your main force is your army and the other is your ally. "From a gaming point of view, taking allies in your army opens up....."

So we have an army and we have allies. Pick your poison.

While p109 makes it clear that "your army" is the combination of all of your detachments and fortifications, "army" is still used to describe army lists in the codexes:


p108: Codexes: "Each of the races of space-born empires in Warhammer 40,000 has a codex -- a book that contains rules, background and collecting information for that army"

p109: "Bear in mind that some combinations of armies and allies are more effective..."

p112: Battle Brothers: "This category covers the strongest of alliances, two or more armies striving for a common goal."



By the way, the Tau codex also has a special rule that references the "army." Tau named characters can only be taken in Tau armies of at least 1500 pts.

Here's a third interpretation.

EDIT: You beat me to it.

insaniak wrote:

The other possible interpretation that I see is that the army is comprised of both Primary and Allied detachments... in which case a Blood Angels force with Space Wolves allies is neither a Blood Angels nor a Space Wolves army... it's a 'Blood Angels and Space Wolves army'... In which case the Leaders of the Pack rule not only won't apply to allied Wolves, it also won't apply to Space Wolf forces with an Allied Detachment.

I am actually starting to favor this interpretation now. It's the most strict interpretation.

But I still maintain that with out a clear definition of what a "space wolves army" is - we have three ways to read that now - it's going to be read differently by different people.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

elrabin wrote:
By the way, the Tau codex also has a special rule that references the "army." Tau named characters can only be taken in Tau armies of at least 1500 pts.

This could cause confusion too. Does that mean it has to be an army of at least 1500 points whose primary detachment is Tau? Or does it have to be an army whose primary detachment is at least 1500 points of Tau? Or does it mean it has to be an army of at least 1500 points with primary detachment Tau and no allies? Not clear at all.

If you play SW or Tau, make sure to contact your TO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Formosa wrote:

Yep totally agree with this, your main force is your army selection and then you take allies for your army.

Again. We're arguing that the Space Wolf Codex has RAW which says "A Space Wolves Army may take...". But the term "Space Wolves Army" is not precisely defined any where in the rules. You can have a primary detachment of SW or an allied detachement of SW in your army.

Therefore, it is unfortunately open to interpretation what exactly a Space Wolves army is. There are three so far.

1) Any army that includes at least one detachment from the Space Wolves codex. (The broadest interpretation)
2) Any army whose primary detachment is from codex Space Wolves. (Middle of the road)
3) Any army whose entire list comes from codex Space Wolves. (The strictest interpretation)

I prefer to have either the broadest interpretation or the strictest interpretation, but obviously the individual TO's and / or INAT should make the judgement call.

EDIT : One last edit (sorry). What ever is decided, please try to make it consistent for the Tau decision mentioned above and any others that will come up.

I'm not sure if this has been said, but I couldn't spot it in the walls of text...

The way it reads, and the way I see it is, the Allied Detachment works as an entirely seperate army, therefore, you still get the 2-HQ-Per-HQ-Slot but only for that space wolve allied detachment.

THEREFORE if you allied say, Space Marines and Space Wolves, the Marines get 1-2 HQ, 2-6 Troops, etc
The Space Wolves get 1-1 HQ, 1-2 Troops, etc.

Grugknuckle wrote:

insaniak wrote:

The other possible interpretation that I see is that the army is comprised of both Primary and Allied detachments... in which case a Blood Angels force with Space Wolves allies is neither a Blood Angels nor a Space Wolves army... it's a 'Blood Angels and Space Wolves army'... In which case the Leaders of the Pack rule not only won't apply to allied Wolves, it also won't apply to Space Wolf forces with an Allied Detachment.

I am actually starting to favor this interpretation now. It's the most strict interpretation.

But I still maintain that with out a clear definition of what a "space wolves army" is - we have three ways to read that now - it's going to be read differently by different people.

I really like this one too. It reminds me of the ruling from old DH where GK units lost shrouding when they had a non-GK IC attached to them because they weren't a "GK Unit" anymore, they were a "GK and X" unit.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say all the codex rules apply to that codex when used as a detachment. The detachment is still a "space wolf army". If the British army sends a detachment to assist a US occupation they are still British regulars. They wouldn't change their organizational structure just because they are detached.

Kevlar wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and say all the codex rules apply to that codex when used as a detachment. The detachment is still a "space wolf army". If the British army sends a detachment to assist a US occupation they are still British regulars. They wouldn't change their organizational structure just because they are detached.

And the Space Wolf fluff certainly supports this view. They are a character driven force. It shouldn't matter if they are allies. But since the codex was written for 5th ed which did not have allies, it's hard to say what RAI is.

daedalus wrote:

Grugknuckle wrote:

insaniak wrote:

The other possible interpretation that I see is that the army is comprised of both Primary and Allied detachments... in which case a Blood Angels force with Space Wolves allies is neither a Blood Angels nor a Space Wolves army... it's a 'Blood Angels and Space Wolves army'... In which case the Leaders of the Pack rule not only won't apply to allied Wolves, it also won't apply to Space Wolf forces with an Allied Detachment.

I am actually starting to favor this interpretation now. It's the most strict interpretation.

But I still maintain that with out a clear definition of what a "space wolves army" is - we have three ways to read that now - it's going to be read differently by different people.

I really like this one too. It reminds me of the ruling from old DH where GK units lost shrouding when they had a non-GK IC attached to them because they weren't a "GK Unit" anymore, they were a "GK and X" unit.

The problem with this interpretation is that if you want to throw out Leaders of the Pack when SW are both used as allies and when SW are the primary to an allied force, then you allow SW HQ choices to have the same sagas and same wargear. No good.

Back on topic,

If you refer to page 109 under Partial Force Organisation charts, it tells you that if you codex does not have the the allied or fortification sections in your codex but it tells you to refer to the chart on pg 109.

Now if you refer to page 109 under Allied Detachments, the last paragraph tells you to reference page 112 regarding how armies and allies interact in more detail. Once you go to the section detailing how allies work together, we have a couple of references of army and army:

Levels of Alliance:

The allies matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army.

Battle Brothers:

This category covers the strongest of alliances, two or more armies striving for a common goal.

Now lastly if you reference page 81 of the SW codex, Space Wolves Army List you are told many different times that picking units from that army list is making a SW army:

The following army list enables you to field a Space Wolves army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Before you choose an army, you will need to agree with your opponent upon the type of game you are going to play and the maximum total number of points each you you will spend then you can proceed to pick your army.

This army list may of course be used in conjunction with other missions and scenarios that use the force organisation chards, allowing you access to different types of army for a different gaming experience.

So on the allies page of the BRB, they reference that allies are two separate armies. The army list section in the Space Wolves codex goes on time and time again that choosing units from that army list is making a Space Wolves army, with the additional provision that when used with special missions or force organizations charts, it is still a Space Wolves army. There are no entries in the Space Wolves codex for "allied detachments" nor is there in the Necrons codex, which would be the closest codex to 6th edition.

Simply put, allied detachments are made up of units chosen from a codex's army list which per the RAW make them an army of that codex. All rules of said codex apply to that allied detachment as an army of that codex, which in this case includes Leaders of the Pack.

So is it a army's list or a army list?

The rule is clear.

Army is main force.

Ally is the extra's.

I would laugh at you if you tried to pull this at the store.

Stop trying to abuse rules. SW's are already over powered. Now you want to use them to over power other army lists?

As I said. Just make your list SW and put another ally with them.

MJThurston wrote:So is it a army's list or a army list?

The rule is clear.

Army is main force.

Ally is the extra's.

I would laugh at you if you tried to pull this at the store.

Stop trying to abuse rules. SW's are already over powered. Now you want to use them to over power other army lists?

As I said. Just make your list SW and put another ally with them.

No it is not clear. Based on the RAW quoted by TyrGrimtooth, the wording suggests that each DETACHMENT is an army.

And incidentally, this is not abuse! This is leveling the playing field for everyone! Now (almost) everyone can take the units that you claim are OP. How is that abuse? Do you hate me because I have a rune priest? Now you can have one too. Heck, you can have two!

It's not abuse. And even if it was, when did that ever stop Dakka from ruling against 'abusive' rules? It would be abusive if I claimed that I get to have 4 space wolf characters, but that you can only have 1.

EDIT : And incidently MJ, my space wolves don't need allies.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
Simply put, allied detachments are made up of units chosen from a codex's army list which per the RAW make them an army of that codex. All rules of said codex apply to that allied detachment as an army of that codex, which in this case includes Leaders of the Pack.

This is my interpretation as well.

MJThurston wrote:Stop trying to abuse rules. SW's are already over powered. Now you want to use them to over power other army lists?

While I can't speak for everyone on this forum, I know that I'm here purely to discuss the rules. The armies I play have no bearing on the discussion, and certainly won't change the way I feel about the rules. I fail to see how discussing RAW or RAI, regardless of the outcome, would imply that anyone here "wants" any army to be better than any other.

It is not by RAW.

It's people grabbing at straws.

It's either a SW list with allies or it's a SM list with allies. Not both.


If you are suggesting only the SW codex says it's an army, none of the other codex's are worded that way, so only SW's get to be allies and be called an army. LOL.

No it does not.

You can't have an IG army and a SW army together. It's either IG allied with SW's or SW's allied with IG. Not an IG/SW army. There is no such animal or codex.

If i was in a game or was a TO and was approached by someone wanting to do this, I could see the arguement for it, but according to my own interpretation of the English language and the rules, I would not allow it, as i consider the main force to be the army and the allies to be a small allied force or supplementary group. Similiar to how the green berets worked in vietnam during the very early 1960's with South Vietnamese units. I wouldnt have considered the Green Beret units of those times armies of themselves but rather small units bolster the main army.

my own interpretation

MJThurston wrote:
If you are suggesting only the SW codex says it's an army, none of the other codex's are worded that way, so only SW's get to be allies and be called an army. LOL.

No it does not.

You can't have an IG army and a SW army together. It's either IG allied with SW's or SW's allied with IG. Not an IG/SW army. There is no such animal or codex.

I'm confused. As far as I'm aware, every codex released has similar statements to the one in the SW codex...

Space Marine Codex wrote:The following pages contain an army list that enables you to field a Space Marines army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Imperial Guard Codex wrote:The following army list enables you to field an Imperial Guard army and fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Tau Codex wrote:The army list allows you to fight battles using the scenarios included in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, but it also provides you with the basic information you'll require to field a Tau army in scenarios you've devised yourself...

So an IG army would be one whose units have come from the IG army list. And we know from p112 of the BRB that "the allies matrix shows the levels of potential alliance between each army." Therefore, if "your army" consisted of a primary detachment of IG and an allied detachment of SW, then your army would contain an IG army and a SW army.

It may not be a terribly strong RAW argument, but it certainly seems compelling (to me, at least) for a RAI argument.

MJThurston wrote:It is not by RAW.

It's people grabbing at straws.

It's either a SW list with allies or it's a SM list with allies. Not both.

This is not RAW, either. "Your army," if you choose to bring allies, contains a Primary detachment and an Allied detachment. There's nothing in the BRB that would indicate that "your army" is an IG army if your Primary detachment is IG (although, if there is, please feel free to reference it).

MJThurston wrote:It is not by RAW.

It's people grabbing at straws.

It's either a SW list with allies or it's a SM list with allies. Not both.


If you are suggesting only the SW codex says it's an army, none of the other codex's are worded that way, so only SW's get to be allies and be called an army. LOL.

No it does not.

You can't have an IG army and a SW army together. It's either IG allied with SW's or SW's allied with IG. Not an IG/SW army. There is no such animal or codex.

Actually my codexs at some point on the FoC say something to the effect of using this book to choose an Army as allowed by the scenarios in the rulebook. It just so happens now the BRB says you can have an allied detachment with X restrictions on the FoC, but let's not get caught up on this.

As it stands from a neutral perspective I've seen people quote and give page numbers of quotes calling a list written using the detachment rules "multiple armies" I have also seen quotes referring to an allied detachment as allies. HOWEVER. I have NOT seen anyone show anything that says allies and allied detachments are not an army in their own right, so show me that and I will gladly accept that Space Wolves only get one HQ. As it stands now I have to accept that indeed Space Wolves taken as allies are indeed allowed to have two HQ entries for one force organisation slot as per the rules for "The Leaders of the Pack".

The same can be said that nothing has shown an allied detachment to be an army in it's own right. I have not read anything that clearly says it is one way or another.

MJThurston wrote:
It is not by RAW. It's people grabbing at straws. It's either a SW list with allies or it's a SM list with allies. Not both.

Show me a RULE that says that.This is a language convention that was created BEFORE the rules actually came out when people were drooling over the possibility of allies. It has no weight at all in a discussion of the rules. It is just one of three possible interpretations of the wording "Codex X army".

If you are suggesting only the SW codex says it's an army, none of the other codex's are worded that way, so only SW's get to be allies and be called an army.

False. The Tau codex says that only a "Tau army of at least 1500 points" may take a named character.

You can't have an IG army and a SW army together. It's either IG allied with SW's or SW's allied with IG. Not an IG/SW army. There is no such animal or codex.

Wrong again. You have an army. You may take your primary DETACHMENT from one codex and your allied DETACHMENT from another. Word for word RAW is

P. 109 of the BRB under the heading allied detachments.

If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army (normally one, but if you're playing a larger game this might be two). As with the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different codex to the one used for the primary detachment.

(emphasis mine)

No where in the BRB does it refer to a "Codex X army". Now here is the text of "the Leaders of the Pack" rule from the SW codex.

Codex : Space Wolves, P. 81

In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' allow you to take up to two HQ choices. This means that in a standard mission a Space Wolves army may take one, two, three or even four HQ choices. This represents the constant presence of heroes determined to burn their name into legend.

However, packs of Space Wolves work best when led by a single dominant personality, each hero respected for his own abilities. To represent this, no two characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination. Space Wolves are far too individual and proud for such unimaginative tactics.

What should be completely obvious is that the unfortunate wording "space wolves army" is left over from 5th edition when there would be no confusion at all as to what a Space Wolves Army is. If however, you decide to argue that RAW, you can't have two Space Wolf HQ choices per slot in your allied FOC because your army is not technically a "Space Wolves army", then you are in fact making a RAW argument. And in that case I say, show me RAW that defines what a "Codex X army" is. There is no such rule.

Now...MJThurston's argument is essentially, "The SW are already OP, so we should nerf them by interpreting the rules to make it harder for people to take SW characters." And I say that the discussion of "overpowered-ness" is irrelevant to the rules.

Finally I present one last RAW. Page 108 of the BRB under the heading Force Organisation.

As detailed in each ARMY's CODEX, all the forces you can use are categorised to tell you something about the roles they are meant to play in the ARMY.
[code]

That tells you that all of the choices from a given codex are an army.

So I have rules to support the interpretation that Space Wolves always get two HQ choices per slot. Furthermore, this is the interpretation which provides the SIMPLEST rules - with no exceptions to them.

Honestly, I would say that looking at the warlord section and the first thing says "when choosing your army" and if you go back to detachments and it says your warlord MUST be from your primary detachment, with these things combined...I AM CAPTAIN PL....oh I mean, with those combined it would seem that your primary detachment is "your army" and the allies are just allies, nothing more.

The same could be wondered about necrons and their royal court. Their wording actually just says "For every X in your army...", it doesn't even specify Necron Army.

Show me where it says you can play two armies? You have allied detachment. What is a detachment? Not an army.

Just do what you want but everyone here knows that if you go to a tourney with a list with two HQ's you will be disqualified.