DrCrook wrote:

xxmintyfreshxx wrote:
Also, Big Gunz. Taking a Kannon means your opponent is trying to kill a heavy support with a grot crew at T7! Sick!

Woa, when are they T7?

Jidmah wrote:That would imply that armies without assault units are bones, which is definitely not the case.

Leth wrote:

Jidmah wrote:That would imply that armies without assault units are bones, which is definitely not the case.

They may be more powerful, however I still think a well rounded approach would be better(which is what I said)

Redbeard wrote:

Spoiler:

Kharrak wrote:

xxmintyfreshxx wrote: Despite the fact that close combat is dead, ...

Why do people keep saying this? (Honest question!) Overwatch makes a minimal difference, charge range can be overcome with a Waaagh (and not to mention, at least half the time you're charging into terrain, so you would be potentially boned in 5th as well) and only unique IC's and Force Weapons really scare Nobs, when they can't weasel out of challenges. The loss of Fearless Wounds alone is a massive boon. Transports are the hardest thing to get around, but that just takes learning. Your charge distance is more high risk, high reward.

Okay, here's a list.

General issues:

Overwatch has a minimal impact, unless you're charging certain units. Twin-linked weapons, S5+ weapons. Don't charge ork bikers, they will put out wounds.

Assault is no longer an answer to everything. A shooty army has a chance to hit flyers. A dedicated assault army really doesn't.

Multi-charges are nerfed. So you avoided all those bullets as you crossed the table, and now you get to trade your unit for one other unit. This hurts orks more, as we lose Furious Charge as well. This is the difference between killing three transports in a charge and killing one.

Short table edge deployment means in a third of games, you're going a lot further before you get to assault.

Cover is worse, so you lose more on the way.

Marines can always rally, with no risk now. Don't even think of shooting a marine unit you plan to charge, because they will fall back.

Speaking of falling back, premeasuring, snapfire and the change to Rapid Fire all work in favour of shooty armies. They can now fall back and shoot as we advance towards them, while also ensuring that they get as many turns of shooting as possible via measuring.

Mech issues:
Can only move 6" and charge. Non-assault vehicles have to spend a turn out of the vehicle, period. This really hurts eldar assault units.


Here's a quick analysis of the difference between 5th and 6th, as a 30-strong mob of boyz (w/ PK nob) run across the field towards two units of firewarriors (24, roughly equal points)..

Tau open fire at 30". (We'll assume they're deployed 12" from the table edge, and that they get to start shooting at the 30" line. We'll also assume orks get cover the whole way in, and don't have to roll for terrain)

5th ed:
Tau fire at 30". 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds = 4 dead orks after cover. 26 boyz remain.
26 boyz advance 6" + 3.5" running.
Tau fire at 20.5". 4 more dead orks, 22 boyz remain.
22 boyz advance 9.5"
Tau fire at 11". Rapid Fire means they double effectiveness, kill 8 more boyz.
14 boyz move 6", assault 6", combi-charge the tau, swing first, kill 6 tau from each unit. Tau kill 2 orks in assault, lose by 10.


6th ed:
Tau fire at 30". 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds = 5.3 dead orks after cover. 24.66 boyz remain.
26 boyz advance 6" + 3.5" running.
Tau scoot up to the 18" line. Premeasuring lets them do this perfectly.
Tau fire 18". This is rapid fire. 10.66 more orks die, from the front, putting the orks outside of 18" again. 14 boyz remain.
14 boyz advance 6". They're outside 12", so cannot declare a charge, and might as well run again. This leaves them at roughly 8.5".
Tau now back up 6", and then rapid fire again. 10.66 more orks die, also from the front rank. We're down to 3 boyz and a nob (assuming he wasn't anywhere near the front).
Boyz have a Ld test too. The Tau left themselves 14.5" away before killing the first 10 orks.

Boyz move 6", distance is 8.5" between armies, and that's being generous with who died from the front.

What we're left with is 3 boyz and a nob having to declare a charge against 12 firewarriors - whose overwatch fire would be expected to kill another 2-3 boyz. Forget charging both units, as that would kill everyone.

This is why assault is dead.

Remember, this example gave the orks cover through their entire advance, while simultaneously granting them moves that never rolled for terrain, and was very generous with the effect of casualty removal on distance.

Not only that, but I'm sure someone else is going to say, "well, there's other stuff in my army". Yeah, but there's other stuff in the Tau army too. 24 firewarriors and 30 boyz (incl. nob) cost the same. The difference between 5th and 6th means that the orks are hitting combat with 10 fewer bodies - enough to actually win the fight after sustaining casualties on the way in.

KingCracker wrote:Well obviously well rounded is a good approach, but looking at Tau for example, they SUCK in CC and any CC build you go for with them, is hilarious at best. So they are a pure shooting army, that can blast armies off the table in quick order.

Redbeard wrote:

Kharrak wrote:

xxmintyfreshxx wrote: Despite the fact that close combat is dead, ...

Why do people keep saying this? (Honest question!) Overwatch makes a minimal difference, charge range can be overcome with a Waaagh (and not to mention, at least half the time you're charging into terrain, so you would be potentially boned in 5th as well) and only unique IC's and Force Weapons really scare Nobs, when they can't weasel out of challenges. The loss of Fearless Wounds alone is a massive boon. Transports are the hardest thing to get around, but that just takes learning. Your charge distance is more high risk, high reward.

Okay, here's a list.

General issues:

Overwatch has a minimal impact, unless you're charging certain units. Twin-linked weapons, S5+ weapons. Don't charge ork bikers, they will put out wounds.

Assault is no longer an answer to everything. A shooty army has a chance to hit flyers. A dedicated assault army really doesn't.

Multi-charges are nerfed. So you avoided all those bullets as you crossed the table, and now you get to trade your unit for one other unit. This hurts orks more, as we lose Furious Charge as well. This is the difference between killing three transports in a charge and killing one.

Short table edge deployment means in a third of games, you're going a lot further before you get to assault.

Cover is worse, so you lose more on the way.

Marines can always rally, with no risk now. Don't even think of shooting a marine unit you plan to charge, because they will fall back.

Speaking of falling back, premeasuring, snapfire and the change to Rapid Fire all work in favour of shooty armies. They can now fall back and shoot as we advance towards them, while also ensuring that they get as many turns of shooting as possible via measuring.

Mech issues:
Can only move 6" and charge. Non-assault vehicles have to spend a turn out of the vehicle, period. This really hurts eldar assault units.


Here's a quick analysis of the difference between 5th and 6th, as a 30-strong mob of boyz (w/ PK nob) run across the field towards two units of firewarriors (24, roughly equal points)..

Tau open fire at 30". (We'll assume they're deployed 12" from the table edge, and that they get to start shooting at the 30" line. We'll also assume orks get cover the whole way in, and don't have to roll for terrain)

5th ed:
Tau fire at 30". 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds = 4 dead orks after cover. 26 boyz remain.
26 boyz advance 6" + 3.5" running.
Tau fire at 20.5". 4 more dead orks, 22 boyz remain.
22 boyz advance 9.5"
Tau fire at 11". Rapid Fire means they double effectiveness, kill 8 more boyz.
14 boyz move 6", assault 6", combi-charge the tau, swing first, kill 6 tau from each unit. Tau kill 2 orks in assault, lose by 10.


6th ed:
Tau fire at 30". 24 shots = 12 hits = 8 wounds = 5.3 dead orks after cover. 24.66 boyz remain.
26 boyz advance 6" + 3.5" running.
Tau scoot up to the 18" line. Premeasuring lets them do this perfectly.
Tau fire 18". This is rapid fire. 10.66 more orks die, from the front, putting the orks outside of 18" again. 14 boyz remain.
14 boyz advance 6". They're outside 12", so cannot declare a charge, and might as well run again. This leaves them at roughly 8.5".
Tau now back up 6", and then rapid fire again. 10.66 more orks die, also from the front rank. We're down to 3 boyz and a nob (assuming he wasn't anywhere near the front).
Boyz have a Ld test too. The Tau left themselves 14.5" away before killing the first 10 orks.

Boyz move 6", distance is 8.5" between armies, and that's being generous with who died from the front.

What we're left with is 3 boyz and a nob having to declare a charge against 12 firewarriors - whose overwatch fire would be expected to kill another 2-3 boyz. Forget charging both units, as that would kill everyone.

This is why assault is dead.

Remember, this example gave the orks cover through their entire advance, while simultaneously granting them moves that never rolled for terrain, and was very generous with the effect of casualty removal on distance.

Not only that, but I'm sure someone else is going to say, "well, there's other stuff in my army". Yeah, but there's other stuff in the Tau army too. 24 firewarriors and 30 boyz (incl. nob) cost the same. The difference between 5th and 6th means that the orks are hitting combat with 10 fewer bodies - enough to actually win the fight after sustaining casualties on the way in.

J!MM!L!COUS wrote:
Are you so incompetant so as not to take advantage of any LoS blocking terrain?

Or even use the look out sir rule to allocate wounds at the back?

Or you could even deploy a good ole grot wall in front of your troops to either a) soak up hits, b) provide a 5+ cover save, or C) be ignored in favour of shooting at the boyz behind untill the grots, who arrive a turn before, can assault and therefore stop the shooting.

There's always a solution, it requires a different way of thinking.

I get so annoyed with all the people who moan about the 'sky falling' just because they either can't be bothered to think up new strategies, or summon the grey matter to do it.

Redbeard wrote:
Let's put aside, for the moment, the fact that terrain placement is random in 6th ed, and that a shooty opponent is going to do everything they can to deny you good LOS blocking terrain

Redbeard wrote:
did you really fail to comprehend that the example was provided as a theoretical demonstration of how the math involved has changed from 5th to 6th, and not as an actual in-game situation.

Redbeard wrote:

J!MM!L!C!OUS wrote:
Or even use the look out sir rule to allocate wounds at the back?

Which is a good way to get your expensive PK-toting Nob killed before he hits combat, as a 4+ is not a reliable LOS, and he'll take hits on the way in. Or were you considering a Warboss attached to the unit? What did the Tau get to their side?

Redbeard wrote:

J!MM!L!C!OUS wrote:
Or you could even deploy a good ole grot wall in front of your troops to either a) soak up hits, b) provide a 5+ cover save, or C) be ignored in favour of shooting at the boyz behind untill the grots, who arrive a turn before, can assault and therefore stop the shooting.

You'll note that the example had the boyz getting a cover save every turn. So that rules out the effectiveness of strategy B). Getting the grots into combat first is an interesting approach, but they die even faster than the boyz. And, as we add units to the ork side of the equation, we need to consider what the Tau would add too. And, have you ever actually tried this in practice? I have.

Redbeard wrote:
What happens is that you end up losing movement because if you want the grots to stay in front of the boyz, you now have two rolls that limit your run distance, rather than one. If the grots roll a 2" run, that means the boyz are limited to a 2" run too. You make it sound like you just put them down and it works.

Redbeard wrote:

J!MM!L!C!OUS wrote:
There's always a solution, it requires a different way of thinking.

Yes, the solution is to accept that assault is not viable in the way it was in 5th, and run shoota boyz. This isn't exactly a good solution for people who want to play the orky way, but whatever. This entire thread has been about the different way of thinking, and finding the solution that makes orks viable in 6th ed. And, we were doing just fine until your little rant. My post wasn't moaning about the sky falling, it was illustrating the way that the old strategies no longer work.

Redbeard wrote:
So rather than actually pay any attention to what has been discussed, you need to loudly proclaim your ignorance along with your annoyance. Carry on then.

J!MM!L!COUS wrote:
Terrain placement - pg 120 BGB "the players must set up terrain for the battle. There are two ways you can go about this - Narrative and Alternating"

Where narrative is mutual aggrement on terrain position, and alternating is taking it in turns to position terrain. Neither are random (What was that you said about ignorance?) and therefore your point is moot.

You give the Grots a head start, say a turn. Obviously the dice gods can frown on you, but sometimes they smile. C'est la vie.

You realise that my post was not a response to the OP, but to the person I quoted? A person who portrayed pure doom and gloom for assaulty Ork armies. A person who used good math to make a point, which was ultimately torn down because the Math hadn't considered using tactics.

My post highlights my opinion, which is shared by a few others on this thread, that Ork assault armies are not dead, despite the doomsayers (who in my experience are the same sort of people who cry when a new edition of the game is released and call armies broken when they don't win).

Redbeard wrote:
And the point where you happen to roll dice for terrain density? Random. And when you roll a '1' and your opponent puts a small crater down, leaving a 2x2 block of vast empty space without cover, let alone LOS blocking. What do you do then?

You really don't play this game do you. So you start the boyz out a turn later, giving the opponent a free turn to shoot at whatever they feel the need to shoot at. Brilliant!

Yes, I realize that. That person, who you quoted, was me. Do you actually read the posts before making snide comments? You sound like a warseer poster. "Use tactics". As if your opponent will not also be using tactics. As if the idea of tactics is foreign.

You're the guy in physics class who tells the professor that learning the laws of motion is pointless because he hasn't considered air resistance, aren't you.

And how many games of 6th have you played with an ork assault army in order to form this opinion? Cause in my experience, after about five games with them, slugga boyz simply aren't cutting it. Is that an exhaustive trial? No. But it is a good number of games against solid opponents (not just some random kid at a store) and makes me think that continuing to run slugga boyz is less than useful in 6th ed. This isn't doomsaying, it's trial and error. It's trying to find what does work, not whining about what doesn't, and you seem unable to tell the difference between "crying about a new edition" and analyzing why something no longer works. My games using shoota boyz have fared better. My games using nob bikers have fared better. Slugga boyz, however, don't cut it.

Sorry that my experience doesn't mesh with your opinion.

Jidmah wrote:While I just might be lucky, for about every failed assault due to rolling a 2-5 I have made awesome 10-12" across half the board, catching unsuspecting skimmers or shooty units who assumed to be safe, or even charging up three stories of a ruin. By propper unit placement defensive fire is not going to take away too much of your assault range. While I still dislike the comleteley random charge length, it's not that terrible.

General_Chaos wrote:10"-12" charges? So your solutions of how to deal with Assaults in 6th is to get better dice? The best advice you got is to take more overwatch shots and to pray to Mork and Gork for those 10"-12" charges?

Here I am wasting time thinking about meta changes, list building, and all I needed was new dice. Thanks fellas.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Tau rapid fire range is 15" not 18" for fire warriors.

Also, how many squads of 30 ork boys can you take? To that, what else will you have on the table? two 15 man loota squads, nob bikers, biker boys,storm boys and some other choice gribblies?

Redbeard wrote:

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Tau rapid fire range is 15" not 18" for fire warriors.

Yup, we covered that a few posts back.

Also, how many squads of 30 ork boys can you take? To that, what else will you have on the table? two 15 man loota squads, nob bikers, biker boys,storm boys and some other choice gribblies?

Again, I wasn't suggesting that my scenario was something that would come up during a game. I posted a comparison of the same scenario played out under 5th and 6th rules, and noted the differences. A scenario between an equal number of points, I might add. And the difference was that in 5th, the orks get to the tau with 10 or so bodies and multicharge both units, and in 6th, they might get 2-3 guys there, and certainly don't multi charge.

Is a comparative example really so hard for people to understand? No, there's no tactics here, it's math. No, there is no consideration given to what other units might be in the ork (or tau) army. Comparatively, assault is significantly weaker in 6th ed. That's not saying the sky is falling, or that orks can't win anymore. It is, however, an objective statement of fact. Assault is weaker in 6th. You are better off running shoota boyz over slugga boyz.

General_Chaos wrote:10"-12" charges? So your solutions of how to deal with Assaults in 6th is to get better dice? The best advice you got is to take more overwatch shots and to pray to Mork and Gork for those 10"-12" charges?

Here I am wasting time thinking about meta changes, list building, and all I needed was new dice. Thanks fellas.