Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers, they likely wouldn't fit anywhere but the transport compartment, and side hatches really do matter. Additionally, the Rhino serves as the basis for all marine vehicles, making maintenance and fielding such vehicles much simpler.

Something to keep in mind is that, with the Astartes, the Rhino is there to deliver super soldiers to the enemy, the SM's primary power is derived from their infantry, not their tanks, the tanks are support elements. The reverse is often true when it comes to the IG, and the Chimera provides a lot of the firepower and staying power of IG formations they are part of.

TL;DR Marines wouldn't fit in the crew compartments, marines need a battle bus more than a long range-capable anti-infantry IFV.

Tadashi wrote:
Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs.

Well, they are.
Just like Britain could defend itself alright without the SAS, but WITH them we are much more capable of projecting force. And, hey, the SAS are just cooler.

Testify wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Even before that he was bashing Astartes and insisting the Guard is all the Imperium needs.

Well, they are.
Just like Britain could defend itself alright without the SAS, but WITH them we are much more capable of projecting force. And, hey, the SAS are just cooler.

Exactly. Now is the IoM better off with the Astartes? Of course. Does the IoM need them to fight in every battle? No, not even close to every battle.

they use rhinos for 3 reasons :
1)

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

2)

Grey Templar wrote:
Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

3) they can stand many things.

4) they use its pater to all SM tanks. if a rhino fall a Predator may be repaired

Pada wrote:they use rhinos for 3 reasons :
1)

hotsauceman1 wrote:One word, Tradition, Pretty much what marines are built upon.

2)

Grey Templar wrote:
Rhinos are APCs. Battle taxis. They move troops from point A to point B.

3) they can stand many things.

4) they use its pater to all SM tanks. if a rhino fall a Predator may be repaired

1. Its understandable, Marines are very conservative.
2. If all they needed where "Battle Taxis" there would be no Razorbacks. Chimeras would fill both roles with minimum reconfiguration. Plus they could put an autocannon in the turrent and have a Rhino/Predator hybrid.
3. Rhinos are extremely Durable.
4. The Chimera has more varients of its hull then the Rhino.

The main reason I believe is so that Marine vehicles are different from Guard vehicles. That way each army has an different look. Beides this and that Its Traditional I really can't see any fluff reasons why the marines would use the Rhino hull over the Chimera, apart from the Crew issue, which would be solved by a slight redesign or having the Chapter Serfs do the driving.

Vaktathi wrote:Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers

Well, neither were Rhinos, if we'd go by that WD excerpt.

Also, in GW's world, Space Marines are 7 feet big.

Razorbacks were developed in order to marry the durable rhino frame with something with more firepower.

The more conservative marine chapters still don't trust the Razorback as much though. Some refuse to use it at all.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote: Beides this and that Its Traditional I really can't see any fluff reasons why the marines would use the Rhino hull over the Chimera, apart from the Crew issue, which would be solved by a slight redesign or having the Chapter Serfs do the driving.

Have you ever checked how many different vehicles real life militaries use? Sure, in smaller countries every branch uses the same APC (possibly in an IFV variant for heavier forces) but the big boys have a lot of different stuff. Different branches with different budgets sometimes plain refuse to use the same crap as "those other rifle-toting guys" use, making sure they get away with it by tailoring their procurement requirements so they get to buy a different vehicle. Sometimes forces use specialized variants that you (conveniently) just can't base on the vehicle the others use. There's a lot of envy and competition there, and instead of fighting each other they'll try to outdo each other with how much unique equipment they can manage to get for themself. Defence contractors all want to sell too - no reason to ditch your new line if the Army bought a competitor's product, just redesign a bit and pitch it to the Marines. And the vehicles reaching end-of-life get shuffled down to low-end units or reserves so that they're still in use long after the top regiments quit using them.

Chimera vs Rhino chassis - tradition and pride, I guess.

Lynata wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:Chimeras aren't designed to be operated by 8ft tall power armored super soldiers

Well, neither were Rhinos, if we'd go by that WD excerpt.

Also, in GW's world, Space Marines are 7 feet big.

People can't seem to get that. I ran one fanwork where the marines where 10ft tall. Granted it was not the only thing wrong with the piece.

Space Marines (And the Inquisition, Sisters of Battle, Arbites, etc.) use Rhinos because the Rhino design tends to have better technology in it (self repair or just greater redundancy/more complex engine setup, a more complicated armour setup, etc.) and they generally have better political connections to the AdMech (well, that and they're smaller.) At least going by IA fluff it is.

The funny thing is, one of the big selling points of the Rhino as I recall is that it was capable of being made from 'virtually any local material' due to its STC origins. So you could technically make lower tech Rhinos from regular steel or aluminum or titanium and stick a lower tech engine (steam engine?) in it if you wanted, rathre than ceramite and adamantium and some thermic combuster (or whatever high tech engine the Rhino is supposed to have.) Go figure.

GW is a business. It wants it's armies to have distinct looks so that each army has to buy its own stuff.

Logistically, SMs should have access to chimeras, mortars, grenade launchers etc. Such equipment is commonly available. But allies lets you do that now. So take an allied IG platoon and commandeer the chimera.

Done.

First: Spot on about the 'distinctive army' thing. That pretty much covers the Out of Universe reason regarding the Rhinos.

SEcond: There really wouldn't be much point ot Space Marines having Chimeras. Chimeras work for the IG because they're much smaller than a power armoured Marine and thus don't take up as much internal space that can be devoted to other things (such as firing points from which the Guardsmen can operate, or a big gun that can help them fight.)

More to the point, Marines are meant to be seen (both by allies and enemies). Having them cooped up in a Chimera doesn't really serve much purpose (insert your own 'metal boxes' joke here) so all they really need is something to move them from point A to B faster in actual combat (and depending on your fluff they may not even need a vehicle. Marines have been clocked at speeds as fast or faster than a Rhino after all.)

As far as Space Marines and artillery goes - they don't really need it again. They can throw grenades pretty darn far, they typically have missile launchers (man portable and whirlwind) and they have tons of air (thunderhawk) and starship artillery support consistently. And there's always the Thunderfire cannon if you REALLY need them to have cannons...

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I've never hidden that I believe that the IG/IN are the better military force in the IoM and that it could survive without the Marines where the IoM could not survive without the IG/IN. But this was a serious discussion on why the elites of the Imperium are cruising around in what appears to be an inferior APC/IFV (Rhino/Razorback.)

I've yet to see an Imperial World that shines like the brilliant gems of the Realm Of Ultramar. Or a city like Tizca - acclaimed during the Great Crusade as one of the greatest cities of Mankind.

More importantly, the Space Marines are the ultimate creation of the Emperor. Are you questioning the Emperor's judgment in creating the Space Marines? If so, you are no better than a common heretic.

Because the Codex Astartes demands it so.

While a Chimera may fit 12 Ig, SM are twice the size of IG, then you have to add armor and weapons. I don't think Chimeras are meant to hold that much weight either.

How bout this?

Because Games Workshop said so.

Fido198674 wrote:How bout this?

Because Games Workshop said so.

Pretty much the most-sensible answer we've had.

1:Rhinos are built for fights where supply lines are very touch and go, unlike the IG who rarely go into a fight with logistics being an issue. Meaning that marines wont have to worry about a part breaking as much as IG transports do.
2:As has been stated many times tradition keeps them mainline for marines as well.
3: Weight, IIRC the rhino is light compared to a Chimera, and when you are dropping them off with Thunderhawks its weight becomes a great necessity.
4: With it being a battle-taxi those side ports are very nice for hopping out of(Imagine how much of a pain it would be getting out of a vehicle quickly through the back)
5: Because GW has to give you something else to about SMs
6:Chimeras are very tight fits for space marines(Killing Ground Graham Mcneil) Wherein Rhinos are not (The original rhino was probably meant to stow 2 squads of standard humans)
7: Wait....why are we feeding the troll?

Because Rhinos are what GW came up with 20-odd years ago when they wanted to have some vehicles in the game for their favourite faction. In the early days the Guard used Rhinos extensively as well, as GW hadn't come up with a Guard specific vehicle. You used to get Guard Predator companies as well. That was fun

Nowadays they've had more time to diversify the factions and provide the Guard with their own kit, but the Rhino is (and always has been) so iconic a part of the Marine forces it has stuck. I rather like the way pretty much every Marine vehicle is based on the Rhino chassis, just like how almost all Guard vehicles are based on the chimera chassis.

Also Guard need IFVs because they are squishy fleshlings, while Marines only need a tin can on tracks because they are individually armed and armoured so well.

According to all the fluff I have read the Rhino seems a lot more durable than the Chimera. The Rhino shrugs off heavier weaponry like rockets where the Chimara is normally described as a death trap.
As mentioned about the Rhino seems to require a lot less maintainance in the field and is spacier. If 1 marine equals 2 guardsmen then you would need a lot more transports to carry the same load if you go for chimeras.
Also mentioned above is that the rest of the SMs equipment is designed around the Land Raider and Rhino platforms. Thunderhawks and Stormhawks were designed to deliver these vehicles into the thick of things where the chimera can only be deployed by lander.
Last is the fuel issue. The Rhino can run on anything where the chimera is limited to promesomethingsomething.

AL-PiXeL01 wrote:According to all the fluff I have read the Rhino seems a lot more durable than the Chimera. The Rhino shrugs off heavier weaponry like rockets where the Chimara is normally described as a death trap.

This is largely because a lot of authors tend to write Space Marine fiction as though Marines are near gods and their wargear almost literally forged by divine hands, whereas with IG they tend to write it a lot more "blood and guts".

Considering the Space Marines are the gene-sons of demi-gods and possess weapons that considered cutting-edge by the Mechanicum and therefore 'holy', its shouldn't come as a surprise.

Depends on the author, really. There's a rather important difference between considering the Space Marines as "near gods" because that's how Imperial propaganda depicts them - and actually writing them as if said propaganda would be true.

The vision propagated in GW's own books is usually rather conservative, whereas most outsourced products tend to lean towards the far extreme - be it because of pandering to the reader who wants to experience an epic tale where his favourite army is depicted in the most heroic light possible, or because the author himself is a fan.

The term "demi-god" alone is fairly meaningless, for example, considering that it is applied to what amounts to "just" a genetically engineered transhuman creature. Unless you think the Emperor is an actual god rather than just a very powerful psyker (something that most of the Marines themselves do not) - for in this case, I suppose you could claim that the Primarchs, being figurative "sons of the Emperor", do qualify for that term.

It is perhaps ironic, though, that many amongst the Marines' fans hold viewpoints the opposite of what the Marines themselves stand for - such as the rejection of godhood.

Lynata wrote:

The term "demi-god" alone is fairly meaningless, for example, considering that it is applied to what amounts to "just" a genetically engineered transhuman creature. Unless you think the Emperor is an actual god rather than just a very powerful psyker (something that most of the Marines themselves do not) - for in this case, I suppose you could claim that the Primarchs, being figurative "sons of the Emperor", do qualify for that term.

It is perhaps ironic, though, that many amongst the Marines' fans hold viewpoints the opposite of what the Marines themselves stand for - such as the rejection of godhood.

The definition of 'god' in 40k is blurred anyway. The Emperor is clearly an ageless psyker with godlike power, and his sons all got a shadow of that power. Their sons in turn received a shadow of that shadow of power. Even the Powers of Chaos and the Daemons of the Warp aren't gods or daemons at all - they're just called that, but they're just energy-based life-forms from an alternate dimension. The same could be said of Gork and Mork, and perhaps the Eldar Gods as well. The C'tan? Its quite clear that they are, or rather were, the material equivalent of the Chaos Powers.

Personally, I don't think or believe the Emperor is a god per se, otherwise why would I be so antagonistic to the Ecclesiarchy. Its just that, for all intents and purposes, he and the Primarchs were a 'god' and 'demi-gods' respectively, and the Astartes their superhuman progeny.

Hmmm,

The why... Why ask why?

Maybe it is tip happy (roles over too much, and cant land out of aircrafts), maybe the windows don't fit bolter barrels, maybe the recoil and noise of the bolters are too dangerous compared to a lasgun, maybe it’s the fuel consumption, or the series of the military issue.

Think now a days, we don't shoot Rambo’s big beastly weapons.. Too big, too powerful. We don’t arm mini guns and missiles on our HMMVES even though there are mods for them to do just that. We don’t even issue them out anymore. The MAX pro is bigger and roomier then the other MRAPS, but its hydraulic back door is much more dangerous than the battle lock side doors on the newer MRAP.

My guess... Using the GW layout. The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each. Just like the HMMVEE was... up until we needed more armor, larger load capacity, and more torque for the larger loads.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmmm,

The why... Why ask why?

Maybe it is tip happy (roles over too much, and cant land out of aircrafts), maybe the windows don't fit bolter barrels, maybe the recoil and noise of the bolters are too dangerous compared to a lasgun, maybe it’s the fuel consumption, or the series of the military issue.

Think now a days, we don't shoot Rambo’s big beastly weapons.. Too big, too powerful. We don’t arm mini guns and missiles on our HMMVES even though there are mods for them to do just that. We don’t even issue them out anymore. The MAX pro is bigger and roomier then the other MRAPS, but its hydraulic back door is much more dangerous than the battle lock side doors on the newer MRAP.

My guess... Using the GW layout. The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each. Just like the HMMVEE was... up until we needed more armor, larger load capacity, and more torque for the larger loads.

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor is clearly an ageless psyker with godlike power

There is another vague term. "Godlike power" being what? Whatever he had, it did not save him from being killed. The same goes for the Primarchs, and of course the Space Marines - who are quite mortal and die just like anyone else in the Imperium.

Yes, "gods" or "demigods" are basically created by the people who elate such individuals to this status. This goes for the Emperor as well as the Gods of Chaos. Or all the Saints the Imperium has. It's all a matter of perception, all depending on the difference between one person and the world he or she visits, or rather the people who live there. The story of Vandire using a Rosarius to fool the pre-sisterhood Daughters of the Emperor springs to mind.

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:The Rhino is much customizable for the mission it is used in. From Whirlwind, to Razorback, to Predators, with so many options for each.

I'm not sure if the Rhino truly is more customizable than the Chimaera. Both chassis sport a large variety of variants.
But for the Space Marines (and the other elite organisations that use Rhinos), reliability seems more important than raw firepower, as the latter is delivered by the people carried by this vehicle. Safely getting them to where they are needed is thusly more important than sporting a big weapon on itself. A Rhino offloading squads of power-armoured shock troops at its goal has achieved more than a Chimaera that is stuck in the middle of the field because its engine has a lower tolerance.

Wardragoon wrote:1:Rhinos are built for fights where supply lines are very touch and go, unlike the IG who rarely go into a fight with logistics being an issue. Meaning that marines wont have to worry about a part breaking as much as IG transports do.
2:As has been stated many times tradition keeps them mainline for marines as well.
3: Weight, IIRC the rhino is light compared to a Chimera, and when you are dropping them off with Thunderhawks its weight becomes a great necessity.
4: With it being a battle-taxi those side ports are very nice for hopping out of(Imagine how much of a pain it would be getting out of a vehicle quickly through the back)
5: Because GW has to give you something else to about SMs
6:Chimeras are very tight fits for space marines(Killing Ground Graham Mcneil) Wherein Rhinos are not (The original rhino was probably meant to stow 2 squads of standard humans)
7: Wait....why are we feeding the troll?

I'm not trolling,.just because I don't drink the Space Marines are Gods Kool aid doesn't mean I'm a troll. As for the Rhino being able to carry 20 people that's not what I've read, the Rhino carries the same amount as the chimera.

As for about marines, I don't unless they do something stupid. I do put down space marine fan boyism, which makes me a troll to the fan boys I guess.

They carry different amounts of people. You have to remember that marines are a lot bigger than humans.

Because they'd looked pretty funny riding into battle inside mycetic spores.

Chimeras are for little IG chumps. Astartes are so badass, they only need a Rhino.

Seriously though, why would they use something other than the Rhino when they have the STC for that which they use for a lot of other vehicles? If they happen to need a Whirlwind or Predator, it's probably relativly easy to retrofit it.