Orks Vs Space Marines

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**Vaktathi**

Backspacehacker wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:SM could take on 100 Boys with little problem, even with bolters only, that's 10 shots that every marine have to make, bolters have 20 to 30 shots, so a whole magazine and its over.
You do realize this is a nigh impossible feat from any realistic perspective right? That's an exceedingly difficult proposition against a foe that's charging down on your position and firing back. In an average real battle, typically tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds are expended for every casualty inflicted right. In Vietnam is was over 50,000 per person, in Iraq an Afghanistan it has been nearly 30,000 bullets per person. Landing killing blows on infamously tough Xenos (naturally as tough or tougher than Space Marines) with half their scarce ammunition before they get mobbed and without getting shot up themselves is...not something one should count on.

*sigh* yes but this is mot real this is fiction and if you want to argue realisum think of this sm dont fear any thing so being charged at an shot at is the same as a walk in the rain for them +orks cant hit a damn thing

Yes, it's fiction. Yes, that allows some leeway. No, it doesn't excuse the physically impossible, that ruins the immersion in the universe, just as an Eldar leaping over a skyscraper just because "well...they're acrobatic" would. I can't find a single fluff source that would back up a Space Marine being able to engage and terminate 10 targets of SM robustness every second.

It's not about fear, and no, being shot at is not the same as a walk in the rain.

Being shot at tends to make people dead.

Space Marines are not immune to gunfire.

Even the fearless can be forced to keep their heads down or duck into cover. One may not *fear* death, but neither do you exactly want to *be* dead, thus, one may find it prudent to duck/take cover/etc.

**Lynata**

Vaktathi wrote:I can't find a single fluff source that would back up a Space Marine being able to engage and terminate 10 targets of SM robustness every second.

I wouldn't be surprised if some BL novel or whatever did feature such a scene, actually. Have you seen what is possible with the rules in FFG's Deathwatch RPG?

The question is: how well would such a depiction fit in with the rest of the fluff? At some point you simply get into a situation where you have to choose one "version" of Space Marines over the other, and with that potentially discard a whole lot of background.

**Vaktathi**

Haha, to be fair, Deathwatch is the 40k equivalent of "300", where Space Marines are literally immune to small arms fire unless fired in volley by entire platoons, and they had to nerf the ever loving hell out of Bolters because their original incarnation made all other weapons pointless (including stuff like Plasma guns), and SM bolters for some reason did more damage than vehicle mounted heavy bolters from Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, and they had parties cutting down hive tyrants with ease using just basic bolters and leaving their specialist weapons stowed

Though I agree that SM fluff is wildly varied (especially depending on author) and inconsistent with itself and that one kinda has to discount some fluff to make other fluff believable, there's also such a thing as people taking them too far in their own imaginations

Personally I don't recall anything where an SM could kill 10 orks a second with bolter fire.

**Lynata**

Aye, I've compared the DW RPG to "300" in the past myself - and in a way, there's not even anything "wrong" about it, if only people would just stop taking it so literal. I even remember several fans claiming the WD Movie Marine rules are supposed to be an "accurate portrayal" (when it clearly says in the article that they're pretty much the opposite).

Also agreed about the imagination thing - which is only made worse by exchange on the internets and various "enthusiasts" answering fluff queries with what they remember reading ... I suppose that's where the ever-rising height must come from. Somebody reads a 7 but sees an 8, and the next one reads an 8 but sees a 9. It's like a game of Chinese whispers!

**Psienesis**

By and large, the standard Ork shoota isn't going to do much of anything to your power armor. A lucky shot might kill you, yes. Orks with guns hit more by luck than by design. So, yeah, 100 boyz charging your position firing helter-skelter and screaming and yelling?

Stand there and shoot them once each in the face. The mass-reactive round is not fazed by the regeneration of an Ork when its head literally shatters. Ten guys, ten bolters... or 9 guys and one heavy bolter, if you prefer, and... yeah, 100 dead orcs in a few seconds (what, were those Boyz only thirty feet away? Hardly.) is really not that hard to imagine or accomplish.

These are Space Marines. While they're definitely not as god-like as some sources make them out to be, they are definitely the BAMFest of the BAMFs.

**Unit1126PLL**

I wonder if some people in this thread understand that their claims imply that a single company of Space Marines can kill 35,000 Orks in one go.

That's more firepower than an Imperial Battleship's orbital bombardment...

...all I can say is "derp"

**BlaxicanX**

That's kind of a weird comparison. How is 35,000 ork deaths superior the firepower of a star ship? If it's assumed that a single ship can easily level a city to the ground, well, San Francisco alone has 7 million people in it.

edit- Also, can someone explain to me why Vaktathi is trying to argue Space Marine capabilities by comparing them to real life soldiers? That literally makes no sense at all.

**Fido198674**

Unit1126PLL wrote:I wonder if some people in this thread understand that their claims imply that a single company of Space Marines can kill 35,000 Orks in one go.

That's more firepower than an Imperial Battleship's orbital bombardment...

...all I can say is "derp"

But, how often is an entire company all together at the same spot on the same field of battle?

**Vaktathi**

Lynata wrote:Aye, I've compared the DW RPG to "300" in the past myself - and in a way, there's not even anything "wrong" about it, if only people would just stop taking it so literal. I even remember several fans claiming the WD Movie Marine rules are supposed to be an "accurate portrayal" (when it clearly says in the article that they're pretty much the opposite).

Yeah, that always was rather silly

Also agreed about the imagination thing - which is only made worse by exchange on the internets and various "enthusiasts" answering fluff queries with what they remember reading ... I suppose that's where the ever-rising height must come from. Somebody reads a 7 but sees an 8, and the next one reads an 8 but sees a 9. It's like a game of Chinese whispers!

Indeed, good point, and it really doesn't help that their power level is so dependent on what fluff you're reading, you definitely wouldn't get the same impression if you're reading CSM books as you would if you were reading books about loyalist SM's for example.

Psienesis wrote:By and large, the standard Ork shoota isn't going to do much of anything to your power armor. A lucky shot might kill you, yes. Orks with guns hit more by luck than by design. So, yeah, 100 boyz charging your position firing helter-skelter and screaming and yelling?

That's a lot of potential for "luck" to happen

Stand there and shoot them once each in the face.

Again, not easy, especially if they're moving and it's anything but an open field, and especially firing accurately that fast.

The mass-reactive round is not fazed by the regeneration of an Ork when its head literally shatters.

And headshots are rather difficult, there's a reason nobody is trained to aim for heads. You won't see SAS guys or US Marine snipers aiming for heads for example, it's all center mass, and Orks are physically as tough or tougher than SM's, just lacking the armor.

Ten guys, ten bolters... or 9 guys and one heavy bolter, if you prefer, and... yeah, 100 dead orcs in a few seconds (what, were those Boyz only thirty feet away? Hardly.) is really not that hard to imagine or accomplish.

Hrm, that assumes you have seconds (plural), and as a routine shooter, yeah, that'd be absolutely insane unless you've got a ridiculously high RoF gun and you're emptying it, which, unfortunately for the SM's, their weapons aren't super high RoF and they can't afford to let any shots go to waste given how limited their ammo typically is. 30 feet is crossable very quickly, there are people that can do that in literally less than 1 second and most fit people can do it in about one and a half seconds or less, not even the most BAMF of BAMF's is going to accurately gun down ten distinct targets, much less with headshots, in that amount of time, without a very high RoF gun and a lot of ammunition expended. With regards to bolters, you're talking about picking out a target and moving the weapon and the shooters body and aiming at it faster than the weapon can cycle, and that's assuming it can even fire 600RPM to fire 10 times in one second, which IIRC bolters do not.

These are Space Marines. While they're definitely not as god-like as some sources make them out to be, they are definitely the BAMFest of the BAMFs.

Not arguing that, but what we're talking about here is out of even that league.

**Fido198674**

Vaktathi wrote:
Ten guys, ten bolters... or 9 guys and one heavy bolter, if you prefer, and... yeah, 100 dead orcs in a few seconds (what, were those Boyz only thirty feet away? Hardly.) is really not that hard to imagine or accomplish.
Hrm, that assumes you have seconds (plural), and as a routine shooter, yeah, that'd be absolutely insane unless you've got a ridiculously high RoF gun and you're emptying it, which, unfortunately for the SM's, their weapons aren't super high RoF and they can't afford to let any shots go to waste given how limited their ammo typically is. 30 feet is crossable very quickly, there are people that can do that in literally less than 1 second and most fit people can do it in about one and a half seconds or less, not even the most BAMF of BAMF's is going to accurately gun down ten distinct targets, much less with headshots, in that amount of time, without a very high RoF gun and a lot of ammunition expended. With regards to bolters, you're talking about picking out a target and moving the weapon and the shooters body and aiming at it faster than the weapon can cycle, and that's assuming it can even fire 600RPM to fire 10 times in one second, which IIRC bolters do not.

Even as a hardcore Ultramarine fanboy

I have to agree with this. Saying 100 dead Orks in a few seconds? Lets not get stupid about it. Could a normal tac squad kill 100 Orks? Well, sure, probably without special weapons too (assuming we mean fluff and not TT) But it REALLY depends on what clan these Orks are from and heck, even what chapter of SM were talking about if you think about it. While these all will "shoot" the same, in this situation, chapters like Ultramarines will hunker down in defense while Whitescars will probably break up in two fives and flank quickly and the SW will just charge for honors sake. At least IMO.

**Ultrafool**

Wow people underestimate the orks big time. Orks are one of the most strongest races in the 40k universe. Yeah a marines are cool and all but I'd say a 30 strong mob is a match for 10 marines. Orks are physically strong, adaptable, without numbers, skilled combat fighters, and shoot mind bullets. I read in the old ork codex a story where a mob took on a tac squad and a dreadnought. The marines were doing some damage at one point, but when the orks closed in it was over. The boyz were hacking off the "soft armored" parts of the marines and jumped on the dread knocking it over and wrecking it.

**Pada**

well if we talk about a tactical marine whith a bolter where he is in the best position ( in a banker whith all orks comes from 1 door) then i bet about 100 at fully max.if he hasnt weapon is until 50 at max. reasons are simpe :
1) orks got weapons too
2) ork are milions and even you are very skilled they can kill you easily if they suround u.
but a full squad can kill and more that 1000 , as they will use tactiks.

but if we talk about death company one man can kill 200 easily

**Psienesis**

Not all Sluggaboyz are ten feet of big, green muscle, either. We've yet to establish a baseline of what sort of Ork we're having charge towards the SM.

That's a lot of potential for "luck" to happen

Not really, because in all likelihood, only your front or front two ranks of Boyz are going to be shooting. Anyone behind them is either firing into the air, or into the backs of the Orks in front of them, or just chugging along. Probably so they can be up front to shoot at da 'umies, too.

And headshots are rather difficult, there's a reason nobody is trained to aim for heads. You won't see SAS guys or US Marine snipers aiming for heads for example, it's all center mass, and Orks are physically as tough or tougher than SM's, just lacking the armor

They're not Space Marines. And, no, not all Orks are the same size and mass and toughness as a Space Marine. There's plenty of low-ranking Boyz and Yootz who make up the bulk of the Orkish hordes that are big in comparison to a standard IG trooper, but are smaller than a Space Marine... and also lacking the implants and superior genetics.

30 feet is crossable very quickly, there are people that can do that in literally less than 1 second and most fit people can do it in about one and a half seconds or less, not even the most BAMF of BAMF's is going to accurately gun down ten distinct targets, much less with headshots, in that amount of time, without a very high RoF gun and a lot of ammunition expended. With regards to bolters, you're talking about picking out a target and moving the weapon and the shooters body and aiming at it faster than the weapon can cycle, and that's assuming it can even fire 600RPM to fire 10 times in one second, which IIRC bolters do not

I'm mocking the idea that this fight is starting at a distance of 30 feet. Again, we've not established the conditions upon which this theoretical battle is fought, so I'm thinking a massive, open field, Orks on one side, Space Marines on the other, and the Orks gotta run five hundred yards to come to grips with the Marines.

Yeah, you can kill 100 people at that distance before they close to you.

**Vaktathi**

Psienesis wrote:Not all Sluggaboyz are ten feet of big, green muscle, either. We've yet to establish a baseline of what sort of Ork we're having charge towards the SM.

Even a relativley basic Ork is roughly as tough as a Space Marine, a heavily muscled great Nob is much more powerful, a Space Marine's advantage there is his amazing armor.

That's a lot of potential for "luck" to happen

Not really, because in all likelihood, only your front or front two ranks of Boyz are going to be shooting.

**KingDeath**

Lynata wrote:
Vaktathi wrote:Varies considerably. Some can be a few dozen, others tens of millions.
Jayden63 wrote:Whos the author?
This so much.

Anyone remember the interviews with the guys from THQ for the launch of the Space Marine computer game?
"So .. what's the ratio, how many Orks is one Space Marine good for?" - "Phew ... probably ... uh, tens of thousands!"

That is, of course, a rather stark contrast to GW's own fluff, where we have a Primarch's statement implying that a Space Marine is worth about 10 Guardsmen. So unless you think Guardsman Joe can beat thousands of Orks on his own ...
Against Orks, Guard regiments probably even have a big advantage over a Marine Chapter simply because Orks are a rather straight-forward foe that can be grinded into the ground before a well-prepared line of defence covered by heavy bolter teams and Basilisk artillery. Space Marines are shock troops, and as such an excellent choice for attacking some key objective. Taking out a Waaagh on their own or even just resisting it, however, would simply overstretch their capabilities, which are in the end hampered by low numbers. Once the pressure becomes too big, not even an Astartes can bear the onslaught.

Lack of canon means that the 40k franchise simply does not deliver a consistent background. To achieve consistency, one has to pick and choose which sources of fluff best fit to one's own preferences.

OP: If you're interested in the Armageddon War ... probably the best or at least most detailed fluff the GW team itself has ever produced about the general scenario of "Imperium vs Orks" - I recommend taking a glance at their old Armageddon 3 campaign website. It's still available on the Internet Archive, and contains a load of interesting snippets concerning various battles and unit descriptions (including Ork warbands!):
http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114630/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/troops.html (<- from here you can access the background and a few in-character communiques of some of the armies fighting on Armageddon)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070202083119/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/campaign_map.asp (<- from here you can access the various "sector news pages" which have some fluff about important battles and events)

Example excerpt: "Ork 'warbands' number between 600 and 3,000 warriors plus associated war machines and artillery (typically equal to 20-25% of warband strength, rising to 50-100% for 'speed kult' and 'artillery' warbands)."

Sadly GW's old fluff for the Armageddon War suffers from a severe case of unrealisticaly low numbers.

**Jayden63**

There is also no reason to assume that the orks are only packing sluggas/shootas. The Ork Big Shoota has the same firepower and range as the heavy bolter. The ork rokkit may be wildly inaccurate, but they come at you in swarms, and each one that does hit will knock an SM out of the fight. Also some orks love the long range guns like cannons/lobbas/looted guns/etc. Orks have no problem with pounding you from a distance while the mob closes in.

Then you also have Meks with portable forcefileds deflecting many of those incoming bolter rounds. Or bikers spilling forth a chocking smoke cloud, where accuracy suddenly drops into the toilet.

And that is the real problem, the green tide is never just a tide of orks boys. You have trukks flying up the flanks, storm boys zooming ahead of the pack, and maybe an mob of Ardboys thrown in to the mosh as well. This is part of the simplicity yet agravating truth for the enemies of the ork. Your never fighting against one type of ork, they have many different and above all effective ways of hitting you even if the underlying principle of frontal assault never much changes.

**Lynata**

KingDeath wrote:Sadly GW's old fluff for the Armageddon War suffers from a severe case of unrealisticaly low numbers.

How so?

(doesn't any GW fluff suffer from unrealistically low numbers?

)

**Psienesis**

Like I said at the outset, it is going to depend on a number of factors, none of which have been listed in this topic so far.

**CuddlySquig**

Lynata wrote:
KingDeath wrote:Sadly GW's old fluff for the Armageddon War suffers from a severe case of unrealisticaly low numbers.
How so?

(doesn't any GW fluff suffer from unrealistically low numbers? )

Codex Armageddon listed the force roster for both sides. The same list (or one much like it) is listed in the new rulebook. The numbers listed seem strangely low for the "biggest waaagh" ever. I don't like the way GW writes about its wars, where the fate of a worldwide conflict teeters on the outcome of a single conflict, which can be determined by the death of a leader and the conflict, (realistically an affair of dizzying complexity) is fought between tiny forces.

The honest answer to the original question is, as with many questions about the effectiveness of unrealistic 40k aspects, it is impossible to know because there isn't one. There is not and has never been an absolute number. Just make one up. A lot of stuff in 40k is based on personal conjecture and not hard numbers. I know how much neater and authoritative a hard number would be, but you just have to accept that you have to make them up.

**Vaktathi**

Yeah, the Armageddon wars numbers seem basically to be pulled from WW2 sized campaigns, with one of the largest galactic conflicts, causing troops from dozens of other major warfronts to be redirected, numbering only in the millions of combatants, when there are tens of trillions of IG troops available.

**Psienesis**

Based on another thread, it would seem that 100 Custodes killed 100,000 Orks in less than an hour. While SM are not of the same calibre as a Custodes, they should manage to kill 0.1% of that number in a minute.

**CuddlySquig**

Psienesis wrote:Based on another thread, it would seem that 100 Custodes killed 100,000 Orks in less than an hour. While SM are not of the same calibre as a Custodes, they should manage to kill 0.1% of that number in a minute.

I seem to remember they teleported into combat and there were 1000 or more, not 100. So maybe they all teleported into the middle of a different ork mob and swung their halberd things in an arc to kill 10 orks at once: a perfect strike under perfect circumstances duplicated 1000 times. It must have taken hours of planning and precise aim with the teleportation. It was an extraordinary circumstance.

**Psienesis**

Considering that the Emperor was rushing in to rescue Horus and the remnants of the Space Marines there, and had just smashed through the Ork fleet, I don't think that's plausible.

And it was 100 Custodes, that's the Emperor's Companions. Not 1000.

**Lynata**

CuddlySquig wrote:The numbers listed seem strangely low for the "biggest waaagh" ever.

I did a quick rundown of the numbers and - by assuming that each warband is about ~2.000 Orks (the average strength was given with 6.00-3.000) - arrived at a grand total of 2.614.000 Orks. Not counting additional vehicles, fortresses, and Gargants.

That's a whole lot if you ask me, especially considering that most of them arrived via space"ships" - and a lot of those were shot down during the initial invasion wave, so the number of Orks even trying to land was quite possibly far greater. Add to that the fact that Orks breed like rabbits and are difficult to eradicate thanks to their spore-based reproduction and you should see why Armageddon was such a huge deal for the Imperium.

Conversely, it should be kept in mind that the number of troops in an Imperial Guard regiment can range from a few hundred to tens of thousands of soldiers, depending on the quality of their training and equipment as assessed by the Departmento Munitorum force normalisation doctrine. For example, the Valhallan 18th Light Infantry "Tundra Wolves" regiment was noted in the 5E Guard Codex to have a whopping 120.000 soldiers. Furthermore, it takes weeks or months to mobilize an Imperial Guard regiment from a fresh tithe, and that many existing regiments are already busy fighting some kind of campaign elsewhere. After all, with the exception of Imperial Crusades, Guard regiments are raised on an "as-needed" basis. And then there is the huge logistical effort in getting all these troops to move between the stars, redirecting troop ships from elsewhere to create additional capacities, making a stop at various Forge worlds to take on additional arms and ammunition, ...

You may regard this as an "excuse" to justify the provided numbers, if you will, but I have fun looking for solutions and explanations that make the studio fluff seem more sensible. This does not work for everything, but in most cases it is quite possible.

**Kovnik Obama**

Psienesis wrote:Considering that the Emperor was rushing in to rescue Horus and the remnants of the Space Marines there, and had just smashed through the Ork fleet, I don't think that's plausible.

And it was 100 Custodes, that's the Emperor's Companions. Not 1000.

The page linked specifically mentions 1000 custodian.

**Fido198674**

Jayden63 wrote:There is also no reason to assume that the orks are only packing sluggas/shootas. The Ork Big Shoota has the same firepower and range as the heavy bolter. The ork rokkit may be wildly inaccurate, but they come at you in swarms, and each one that does hit will knock an SM out of the fight. Also some orks love the long range guns like cannons/lobbas/looted guns/etc. Orks have no problem with pounding you from a distance while the mob closes in.

Then you also have Meks with portable forcefileds deflecting many of those incoming bolter rounds. Or bikers spilling forth a chocking smoke cloud, where accuracy suddenly drops into the toilet.

And that is the real problem, the green tide is never just a tide of orks boys. You have trukks flying up the flanks, storm boys zooming ahead of the pack, and maybe an mob of Ardboys thrown in to the mosh as well. This is part of the simplicity yet agravating truth for the enemies of the ork. Your never fighting against one type of ork, they have many different and above all effective ways of hitting you even if the underlying principle of frontal assault never much changes.

Now your not talking about a small gang or "mob" of boys and if there was 1000 boys and vechiles and a tide, thats a hard thing to miss and I don't think a chapter would send only one tac squad to deal with it with a limited amount of ammo, unless it was a Death Pac or w/e its called.

**Melissia**

GW doesn't operate under that sort of logic.

**KingDeath**

Lynata wrote:
CuddlySquig wrote:The numbers listed seem strangely low for the "biggest waaagh" ever.
I did a quick rundown of the numbers and - by assuming that each warband is about ~2.000 Orks (the average strength was given with 6.00-3.000) - arrived at a grand total of 2.614.000 Orks. Not counting additional vehicles, fortresses, and Gargants.

That's a whole lot if you ask me, especially considering that most of them arrived via space"ships" - and a lot of those were shot down during the initial invasion wave, so the number of Orks even trying to land was quite possibly far greater. Add to that the fact that Orks breed like rabbits and are difficult to eradicate thanks to their spore-based reproduction and you should see why Armageddon was such a huge deal for the Imperium.

Conversely, it should be kept in mind that the number of troops in an Imperial Guard regiment can range from a few hundred to tens of thousands of soldiers, depending on the quality of their training and equipment as assessed by the Departmento Munitorum force normalisation doctrine. For example, the Valhallan 18th Light Infantry "Tundra Wolves" regiment was noted in the 5E Guard Codex to have a whopping 120.000 soldiers. Furthermore, it takes weeks or months to mobilize an Imperial Guard regiment from a fresh tithe, and that many existing regiments are already busy fighting some kind of campaign elsewhere. After all, with the exception of Imperial Crusades, Guard regiments are raised on an "as-needed" basis. And then there is the huge logistical effort in getting all these troops to move between the stars, redirecting troop ships from elsewhere to create additional capacities, making a stop at various Forge worlds to take on additional arms and ammunition, ...

You may regard this as an "excuse" to justify the provided numbers, if you will, but I have fun looking for solutions and explanations that make the studio fluff seem more sensible. This does not work for everything, but in most cases it is quite possible.

2,5 million enemy combatants are simply not that impressive, especialy not on a world that is suposedly well protected and has a rather large population.
The german invasion of France was done with roughly 3 million soldiers. Even if we assume that all Orks fight, these numbers appear to be rather low for a Whaagh, especialy considering that Orks aren't particularly great soldiers ( lack of discipline has always been a weakness for them ). As a comparision, the long Vraksian campaign, which was at best ( that is, until daemons started to manifest late in the war ) a relatively minor battlefield, was fought against roughly 8 million well entrenched cultists yet it didn't saw the full mobilisation of several astartes chapters and a near sectorwide panic.

Armageddon, which is suposed to have at least a few billion inhabitants, shouldn't even need help from the Imperial army to deal with the Whaagh. Simply recruiting a few percent of it's male population into the PDF would enable them to easily outnumber the Whaagh and win the planetary war.

**Lynata**

KingDeath wrote:Even if we assume that all Orks fight, these numbers appear to be rather low for a Whaagh, especialy considering that Orks aren't particularly great soldiers ( lack of discipline has always been a weakness for them ).

Orks are very good fighters compared to most PDF and even a threat to trained Guard regiments and Astartes, considering that the sheer brutality of their assault is capable of simply overwhelming more disciplined troops.
Further note that these 2.6 million warriors would likely not include any Gretchin or Squigs that, just like a million vehicles, would further enhance a Waaagh's power.

Something else to consider might also be the speed of reproduction. How long does it take for an Ork to grow from a spore into a new warrior? Are we talking years or months here?

KingDeath wrote:Armageddon, which is suposed to have at least a few billion inhabitants, shouldn't even need help from the Imperial army to deal with the Whaagh. Simply recruiting a few percent of it's male population into the PDF would enable them to easily outnumber the Whaagh and win the planetary war.

See, outnumbering an enemy isn't enough. The key to victory is to actually having all these men where they are needed. It's why much smaller forces can score a victory over a much greater enemy, simply because they do not have to bear the full brunt of its actual power. This is why Space Marines are so successful in what they do - and in the case of Armageddon, it worked in favour of the Orks. Not to mention the need to actually have any conscripts equipped with weapons (assuming you do not wish to have these men face the Orks with their bare hands) and properly motivated to not just turn tail and run in the face of such a brutal enemy. The civilian population was recruited for the war effort; the force disposition chart specifically mentions loads of Hive militia regiments, as do a number of reports and communiques on the Armageddon 3 website.

I mean, hey, by your logic Germany shouldn't have succeeded in its invasion of France either, considering that a country of 39 million people was occupied by 3 million soldiers.

Also, Vraks was written by different people (Forgeworld) and suffers from its very own problems concerning "logic".

**KingDeath**

Lynata wrote:
KingDeath wrote:Even if we assume that all Orks fight, these numbers appear to be rather low for a Whaagh, especialy considering that Orks aren't particularly great soldiers ( lack of discipline has always been a weakness for them ).
Orks are very good fighters compared to most PDF and even a threat to trained Guard regiments and Astartes, considering that the sheer brutality of their assault is capable of simply overwhelming more disciplined troops.
Further note that these 2.6 million warriors would likely not include any Gretchin or Squigs that, just like a million vehicles, would further enhance a Waaagh's power.

Something else to consider might also be the speed of reproduction. How long does it take for an Ork to grow from a spore into a new warrior? Are we talking years or months here?

Orks are great warriors but utterly pathetic soldiers. They know almost nothing of discipline or tactics. Most PDF troopers on the other hand should be comparable to modern day soldiers.
The enhanced toughness of the common ork boy might work to their advantage but even then human ( or better, ork ) wave assaults tend to be both costly and not particularly effective.
Unless the WHAAAGH was mostly made up of speedfreaks then a million vehicles appear to be a bit much. The number of Gretchin is indeed unknown but they tend to be even worse soldiers
than orks so i am not certain how much they could influence the campaign. Squids aren't even sentient and while some of them are used for warfare others aren't.
I cannot make any assessment about them.

KingDeath wrote:Armageddon, which is suposed to have at least a few billion inhabitants, shouldn't even need help from the Imperial army to deal with the Whaagh. Simply recruiting a few percent of it's male population into the PDF would enable them to easily outnumber the Whaagh and win the planetary war.

See, outnumbering an enemy isn't enough. The key to victory is to actually having all these men where they are needed. It's why much smaller forces can score a victory over a much greater enemy, simply because they do not have to bear the full brunt of its actual power. This is why Space Marines are so successful in what they do - and in the case of Armageddon, it worked in favour of the Orks. Not to mention the need to actually have any conscripts equipped with weapons (assuming you do not wish to have these men face the Orks with their bare hands) and properly motivated to not just turn tail and run in the face of such a brutal enemy. The civilian population was recruited for the war effort; the force disposition chart specifically mentions loads of Hive militia regiments, as do a number of reports and communiques on the Armageddon 3 website.

I mean, hey, by your logic Germany shouldn't have succeeded in its invasion of France either, considering that a country of 39 million people was occupied by 3 million soldiers.

Also, Vraks was written by different people (Forgeworld) and suffers from its very own problems concerning "logic".