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I have read many books and short stories about space marines fighting orks, all with various outcomes. But, one thing that has always been unclear/unconsistant is the size of a standard ork warband and the amount of orks a standard space marine can take on.

So this is a two parter.

A) How large(as in numbers) is an ork warband?...mainly to get a consept of the total number of orks in armaggeddon in the 6th edition rulebook.

B) How many orks can a space marine take on(or lets say a 10man tac squad) take on? some of the sourses say dozens, hundreds, and to thousands. Because I find some of the numbers quite hard to believe

The one thing that is consistent about Orks is how inconsistent they are. Armageddon, specifically, was a massive Waaagh that had millions, if not tens of millions, of Orks arriving on the planet.

How many Orks can Space Marines take on?
Depends.

We talking Speed Freeks? Sluggaboyz? Shootaboyz? Nobs? Flashgitz? Fighta-Bommbas?

Are the Marines in cover? In a bunker? Defending a position? Assaulting a position? Have Devastator support? Armor support? Transports? Thunderhawk air support?

All of these conditions will determine how many Orks a Space Marine Tac-Squad can handle. On its own? Scores to hundreds, I would say, but again depends on what kind of Orks we're talking about.

How many orks can a Space marine take on?

Whos the author?

This is the big issue. Orks are generally seen as human wave tactics. Just seas of greenskins that flood and overwhelm as they advance.

SMs (depending on the author) have unlimited ammunition for their bolters and are either pretty much immune to small arms fire or actually have weakness against cunning opponents.

IMO, The basic Ork boy is pretty much expendable, but not a push over. They number in the 100s and can take quite a beating before dropping. However, they don't really do that much damage. The choppa is a formitable weapon, but the basic ork boy just bashes it around until either it or his target breaks.

Nobs on the other hand are monsters. They know where to strike, they understand where the chinks in the armor is. They are the ones that drop SMs, not the boys.

A squad of SM can handle quite the number of orks. They have the powerful bolter and are all really good marksmen. They have the ability to thin the orks numbers before having to get mixed into HTH.

I think that an SM effectiveness is like an exponential curve the more members still active in the squad. However, losses add up very quickly. And once you get down to a single SM however, he is in big trouble. The orks can just simply overwhelm them and once the Nob shows up, its all over.

For a 10-man tac squad w/ ml and flamer probably 100 orks at most if they're standing on open ground

It really depends on the setting, and what they are equiped with beside bolters. Also what kinda Orks also mathers as others have pointed out. And the experience of the Tac Squads also mathers

Hazard30 wrote:I have read many books and short stories about space marines fighting orks, all with various outcomes. But, one thing that has always been unclear/unconsistant is the size of a standard ork warband and the amount of orks a standard space marine can take on.

So this is a two parter.

A) How large(as in numbers) is an ork warband?...mainly to get a consept of the total number of orks in armaggeddon in the 6th edition rulebook.

Varies considerably. Some can be a few dozen, others tens of millions.

B) How many orks can a space marine take on(or lets say a 10man tac squad) take on? some of the sourses say dozens, hundreds, and to thousands. Because I find some of the numbers quite hard to believe

This depends entirely on the author in question and the battlefield situation. Some authors will have them slay thousands in glorious hand to hand combat, others will have them kill a few dozen in firefights, or vice versa. Space Marine power level varies *HIGHLY* depending on author, and story PoV.

Orks are not uniform in how they grow or develop either. A young Ork is not going to be as tough as a Veteran, and due to Orkish nature the enviroments they find themselves in can have a significant impact in how they develop (more fighting the better basically as I recall.) So even amonsgt the same 'type' you could still get a qualitative difference.

Decio wrote:For a 10-man tac squad w/ ml and flamer probably 100 orks at most if they're standing on open ground

If this was an accurate estimate then there would be absolutely no point to space marines, and they would have been wiped out a long time ago.

A 10 man squad with middle launcher and flamer would kill 100 orks in the open in about 15 seconds. Literally.

Psienesis wrote:All of these conditions will determine how many Orks a Space Marine Tac-Squad can handle. On its own? Scores to hundreds, I would say, but again depends on what kind of Orks we're talking about.

It's unlikely that they could handle hundreds unless they had a terrain advantage and early warning-- both of them, not just one or the other. Once the Orks get caught in close combat, said tactical squad isn't likely going to last long, and would be torn apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ignatius wrote:A 10 man squad with middle launcher and flamer would kill 100 orks in the open in about 15 seconds. Literally.

Nothing more than marinewankery.

Ignatius wrote:

Decio wrote:For a 10-man tac squad w/ ml and flamer probably 100 orks at most if they're standing on open ground

If this was an accurate estimate then there would be absolutely no point to space marines, and they would have been wiped out a long time ago.

A 10 man squad with middle launcher and flamer would kill 100 orks in the open in about 15 seconds. Literally.

1) It is accurate - there really isn't, and they really should have.

2) Not even close, especially given the relatively low fire-rate of the bolter and short range of the flamer.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Ignatius wrote:

Decio wrote:For a 10-man tac squad w/ ml and flamer probably 100 orks at most if they're standing on open ground

If this was an accurate estimate then there would be absolutely no point to space marines, and they would have been wiped out a long time ago.

A 10 man squad with middle launcher and flamer would kill 100 orks in the open in about 15 seconds. Literally.

1) It is accurate - there really isn't, and they really should have.

2) Not even close, especially given the relatively low fire-rate of the bolter and short range of the flamer.

This. Space Marines really stop making sense when you stop and thinking about them in almost every way. Next to the numbers GW gives for the size of the Imperial Guard, the Astartes are militarily irrelevant on almost any level. In engagements with foes, they often are outnumbered to such ridiculous degrees that they win only through plot armor pretty much. When it comes to the weapons of war, they lack so many tools (medium and long range artillery, aircraft, anti-air weapons, etc) or such tools exist in such limited numbers as to leave them unable to reply to any opponent fielding such tools themselves in any sort of strength. Additionally, given how long it takes to make a Space Marine, there's no way they should be able to operate the way they do without annihilating themselves in months or a few short years at most, and they've got no logistical support abilities outside of direct resupply at their homeworld typically. They really don't make any sense at all when you think about them.

Their weaponry is typically suited to assaulting fortified positions, urban warfare, etc, close range infantry engagements, but really doesn't suit well for anything else or for dealing with humongous numbers of foes. Bolters have a 20 round magazine, how many spare mags do you see on Space Marines typically

Inconsistent in fluff, but generally speaking SM's can handle your standard Ork Boyz fairly easily and at least take down 5 or so on their own, especially if it's a ranged engagement as that's where Orks do the worst due to accuracy issues. With Nobs etc it's an entirely different ballgame though.

Fluff wise I think a space marine tactical squad without plot armour should be able to handle about 40 Orks. More than that and it starts to favor the Orks. Ork firearms are pretty deadly even against power armour and you have to hit an ork in the head or get a nice hit in the torso to disable him.

Orks, biologically speaking, are actually tougher than Marines. They just lack the powered armor for the most part.

Nobs in power armor... they're monsters that could tear apart squads of marines by themselves.

Well Ork pirate vessels which are individual warbands numbers 150-500 orks on average with close to 800 gretchen or more with a varing numbers of squigs to support as food

We are joking right? I am not a marine fanboy in the slightest. Usually I fight the notion they are ultra powerful. But let's use common sense here. A boltgun is rapid fire weapon (I'm not talking about game wise) and will shoot a couple rounds a second correct? A marine, is in fact a great shot. So not many misses here. A boltgun shoots a mass reactive exploding round. Most orks won't survive more than one bolt round. Add in the middle launcher and a flamer, and that ork band is gonna die fast.

Seriously. If 10 marines can't handle 100 ork boys easily then there is no point to them. Which there really isn't in terms of the galaxy, but I'm speaking about having them in the universe in the first place. As much as you think that's correct, it's not of you've read anything regarding space marine against orks.

Let's look past fanboism here for a second (that goes both ways too, you are anti fanboys, and will naturally be biased against them).

Just because you don't think marines should be as good as they are doesnt mean they aren't. They are actually. Because its in the fluff, and regardless of how stupid it is, that's the way it is.

The thing that gets me is that, if space marines are so bad-ass. What does the imperium have to worry about?

Rampaging ork WAAAGH! no problem, drop 100 marines and a landraider and you are all good. And giving the face that they are so few of them just 1 death would be a huge hit. It almost seems like there numbers are inexhaustible unless completely destroyed.

I bring up the question after reading "Rynn's World" and a few other space marine battle books. Just seems a little bit too un-realistic even for a unrealistic world.

The funny thing is that whenever i play a game agents orks they're always over powered (I mean that the player always uses transports and lots of big guns)
He pins you then assaults you

Rampaging ork WAAAGH! no problem, drop 100 marines and a landraider and you are all good. And giving the face that they are so few of them just 1 death would be a huge hit. It almost seems like there numbers are inexhaustible unless completely destroyed.

Because even if 100 SM can kill 10,000 Orks, there's still 990,000 Orks to go in a sizeable Waaagh.

Hazard30 wrote:The thing that gets me is that, if space marines are so bad-ass. What does the imperium have to worry about?

Rampaging ork WAAAGH! no problem, drop 100 marines and a landraider and you are all good. And giving the face that they are so few of them just 1 death would be a huge hit. It almost seems like there numbers are inexhaustible unless completely destroyed.

I bring up the question after reading "Rynn's World" and a few other space marine battle books. Just seems a little bit too un-realistic even for a unrealistic world.

10 space marines can handle 100 orks. Hell given the right conditions maybe 1000 (entrenched, good defenses etc.). 10000? That's a stretch. Seeing as how there are A LOT more than 10000 orks per marine, the imperium has a lot to worry about

The space marine battle books are pretty stupid. Read fall of damnos and it's pretty clear they are built up to be something they shouldn't be. But they are, and as dumb as it is, we as players need to accept it. Unless of course you like to pick and choose your fluff, which is a ok. But I like to use all pieces of "canon" available. If that means a single space marine company can stop a necron awakening, then I will grudgingly accept.

SM could take on 100 Boys with little problem, even with bolters only, that's 10 shots that every marine have to make, bolters have 20 to 30 shots, so a whole magazine and its over.

Bobthehero wrote:SM could take on 100 Boys with little problem, even with bolters only, that's 10 shots that every marine have to make, bolters have 20 to 30 shots, so a whole magazine and its over.

You do realize this is a nigh impossible feat from any realistic perspective right? That's an exceedingly difficult proposition against a foe that's charging down on your position and firing back. In an average real battle, typically tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds are expended for every casualty inflicted right. In Vietnam is was over 50,000 per person, in Iraq an Afghanistan it has been nearly 30,000 bullets per person. Landing killing blows on infamously tough Xenos (naturally as tough or tougher than Space Marines) with half their scarce ammunition before they get mobbed and without getting shot up themselves is...not something one should count on.

Okay, math time ladies and gents

Ten man tac squad with bolters, at 80 yards vs. Orks

Say, for sake of arguement, bolters fire at a rate of 600 rounds per minute(Reasonable by even today's standards.)
= 10 rounds down range a second at full auto.
* 10 marines
=100 Rounds down range a second

Lets assume 9/10 shots land on target, due to "expert marksmanship"

So thats 90 rounds hitting down range a second.

It takes a human in top shape around 4.5 seconds or so to full out sprint (with no gear) 40 yards. lets says Orks are that fast

So that gives the SM's 9 seconds to unload. They empty their mags in 2 seconds, lets say 4 seconds to reload, and empty another whole magazine

= About 360 hits from bolters before the Orks Reach melee (assuming Sluggas)
I would think there would be something like 250-300 Casualties Before the Orks could reach the SM's

This also assumes no Marines are killed by Slugga fire on the charge (you don't hear about that very often anyways)

Bolters don't fire as fast as assault rifles if I'm remembering correctly (though they are much more powerful), and even with astartes reflexes, acquiring a moving and likely somewhat evasive target, moving to aim at it, and firing, twenty times, in 2 seconds is...beyond superhuman, much less achieving a 90% hit rate with a mere 20 rounds in that timespan.

If we were talking stationary targets in the open...maybe? Against charging opponents over a battlefield that are shooting back (however orky-like)? Hrm, not even someone able to react three times as fast as the fastest unaugmented human is going to be doing that, and that's talking Eldar reflexes at that point.

Vaktathi wrote:Bolters don't fire as fast as assault rifles if I'm remembering correctly (though they are much more powerful), and even with astartes reflexes, acquiring a moving and likely somewhat evasive target, moving to aim at it, and firing, twenty times, in 2 seconds is...beyond superhuman, much less achieving a 90% hit rate with a mere 20 rounds in that timespan.

If we were talking stationary targets in the open...maybe? Against charging opponents over a battlefield that are shooting back (however orky-like)? Hrm, not even someone able to react three times as fast as the fastest unaugmented human is going to be doing that, and that's talking Eldar reflexes at that point.

Well, world war 2 assault weapons fired around 600 RPS....today's rifles are much, much higher is my point, thus i would hold it is a valid estimate.
Massive mob of orks hundreds strong is going to be...really...really hard to miss, and wouldn't give them a terrible amount of room to evade much of anything really, you're going to hit something or another unless you hit the ground, or fire over their heads. I'm not referring to pinpoint shots, just landing rounds on a target.
Casualties would count those killed, as well as those unable to fight effectively any longer.

iGuy91 wrote:

Well, world war 2 assault weapons fired around 600 RPS

I assume you meant RP*M* here?

....today's rifles are much, much higher is my point

Not really. In fact, many don't even have automatic options any more, they took it off the M-16 for instance. RoF has decreased if anything, as armies realize that soldiers don't bother to aim when firing on full auto and limit fire to semi or burst on many weapons. The current version of the MG-42, which fired 1200RPM in WW2, is now called the MG-3 and is limited to 800-900 rounds typically because the higher RoF often ended up running dry much too fast and caused excessive wear on the weapon. While we certainly could build faster RoF weapons, the necessity hasn't really raised itself.


Also, Bolters aren't automatic weapons, they're semi-auto/burst fire weapons, their rate of fire is not especially high, they just hit like a truck when they do.

Massive mob of orks hundreds strong is going to be...really...really hard to miss

Have you ever fired a weapon? You'd be surprised of what you can miss, especially if it is moving and you're not shooting over and empty, open plain. Also, if you are firing very rapidly, you're likely to hit the same target multiple times, usually a good thing, not so good when you need every last round to try and kill an enemy. Otherwise they have to make sure every bolt counts, and spraying means the dude in front takes 12 of those 20 bolter rounds, the guy next to him takes 5 and the last dude takes 3 while 17 others bear down on you. If you have to acquire each target individually, aim individually, and fire individually, not even a Space Marine is going to put down 10 each second.

and wouldn't give them a terrible amount of room to evade much of anything really, you're going to hit something or another unless you hit the ground, or fire over their heads.

Very easy to do with an almost imperceptible tilt of your wrist when firing a weapon, a very small angle differential will lead to a shot going very wide or high a few dozen feet away.

Casualties would count those killed, as well as those unable to fight effectively any longer.

Again, Orks are very resilient, as or more so than Space Marines (just sans power armor), so many hits my not put them out of the fight either.


Now, Orks lined up in front of a handful of crew served automatic weapons (e.g. Heavy Bolters) with a line of marines in a fortified position over an open plain and a few hundred feet of distance? Yeah, you could kill hundreds, perhaps thousands if your ammunition holds out, but so could guardsmen at that point. Over 80 yards of indeterminate terrain with the marines in an unspecified position firing with just bolters and a limited amount of ammunition, at ten times their number of orks who may also be armed with large caliber automatic weapons? Hrm...

Except that Marines don't suffer "tilt of the wrist" or things that lesser mortals do. Their power armor, with the autosenses, the integral targeters in the bolter, and all the rest, provide super-human accuracy to the Space Marines. Against a charging wall of 100 boyz, it would not be unexpected for the Orks to suffer 90% casualties against 10 Space Marines in a matter of seconds.

Psienesis wrote:Except that Marines don't suffer "tilt of the wrist" or things that lesser mortals do. Their power armor, with the autosenses, the integral targeters in the bolter, and all the rest, provide super-human accuracy to the Space Marines. Against a charging wall of 100 boyz, it would not be unexpected for the Orks to suffer 90% casualties against 10 Space Marines in a matter of seconds.

I'm not saying they wouldn't do better than normal humans, but 90% target accuracy at that sort of rate of fire with that short of a timespan is ludicrous even for genetically engineered super soldiers in power armor.

You're not simply talking super human at that point, independently targeting and dispatching moving foes with single shots at a rate of 10 each second with a 90% accuracy rate is ludicrous. Space Marines are great and all, but there's "great" and then there is "physically impossible". I don't think typical Bolters will even cycle that fast.

Vaktathi wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:SM could take on 100 Boys with little problem, even with bolters only, that's 10 shots that every marine have to make, bolters have 20 to 30 shots, so a whole magazine and its over.

You do realize this is a nigh impossible feat from any realistic perspective right? That's an exceedingly difficult proposition against a foe that's charging down on your position and firing back. In an average real battle, typically tens if not hundreds of thousands of rounds are expended for every casualty inflicted right. In Vietnam is was over 50,000 per person, in Iraq an Afghanistan it has been nearly 30,000 bullets per person. Landing killing blows on infamously tough Xenos (naturally as tough or tougher than Space Marines) with half their scarce ammunition before they get mobbed and without getting shot up themselves is...not something one should count on.

*sigh* yes but this is mot real this is fiction and if you want to argue realisum think of this sm dont fear any thing so being charged at an shot at is the same as a walk in the rain for them +orks cant hit a damn thing

Vaktathi wrote:Varies considerably. Some can be a few dozen, others tens of millions.

Jayden63 wrote:Whos the author?

This so much.

Anyone remember the interviews with the guys from THQ for the launch of the Space Marine computer game?
"So .. what's the ratio, how many Orks is one Space Marine good for?" - "Phew ... probably ... uh, tens of thousands!"

That is, of course, a rather stark contrast to GW's own fluff, where we have a Primarch's statement implying that a Space Marine is worth about 10 Guardsmen. So unless you think Guardsman Joe can beat thousands of Orks on his own ...
Against Orks, Guard regiments probably even have a big advantage over a Marine Chapter simply because Orks are a rather straight-forward foe that can be grinded into the ground before a well-prepared line of defence covered by heavy bolter teams and Basilisk artillery. Space Marines are shock troops, and as such an excellent choice for attacking some key objective. Taking out a Waaagh on their own or even just resisting it, however, would simply overstretch their capabilities, which are in the end hampered by low numbers. Once the pressure becomes too big, not even an Astartes can bear the onslaught.

Lack of canon means that the 40k franchise simply does not deliver a consistent background. To achieve consistency, one has to pick and choose which sources of fluff best fit to one's own preferences.

OP: If you're interested in the Armageddon War ... probably the best or at least most detailed fluff the GW team itself has ever produced about the general scenario of "Imperium vs Orks" - I recommend taking a glance at their old Armageddon 3 campaign website. It's still available on the Internet Archive, and contains a load of interesting snippets concerning various battles and unit descriptions (including Ork warbands!):
http://web.archive.org/web/20070404114630/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/troops.html (<- from here you can access the background and a few in-character communiques of some of the armies fighting on Armageddon)
http://web.archive.org/web/20070202083119/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/campaign_map.asp (<- from here you can access the various "sector news pages" which have some fluff about important battles and events)

Example excerpt: "Ork 'warbands' number between 600 and 3,000 warriors plus associated war machines and artillery (typically equal to 20-25% of warband strength, rising to 50-100% for 'speed kult' and 'artillery' warbands)."