Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:They offered huge amounts of compensation to the surviving victims of said war crimes. And set up an organization to prevent the repetition of them.

They did not give money to individuals, but to governments. And have refused to give money to individuals, and the government continues to deny its war crimes involving rape, often pedophilic rape, of foreign women conscripted in to sex slavery. They actively try to deny that the crimes ever happened.

Squigsquasher wrote:Also, I haven't seen any western history books referencing the war crimes committed by allied forces. Of which there is a whole page on Wikipedia.

The one I read in high school mentioned them. Same with my college textbooks.

On the first point, IIRC (don't shoot me, just going off the top of my head) there is actually a legal reason why they can't give individuals compensation. Like I say, I can't remember exactly, it was in a news article (an American news article at that). Also, some of the war crimes levelled against Japan, from the information I've seen (and this was off Wikipedia, not an uber right wing Japanese neo-nationalist column)...just didn't happen, or were grossly exaggerated. Nanking, for example: a large amount of the photographs showing supposed "evidence" for the atrocities have actually been proved to be false. The presence of a single fake photo brings the event into question. The fact that over half of them have been disproved makes the evidence very very shaky.

Now before you start pointing fingers at me and screaming about what a horrible person I am, I'm just as apalled and disgusted by the crimes committed by the IJA as you are, and consider them utterly revolting. I genuinely believed the Nanking massacre happened before I read the Wikipedia
article. And I still believe that the other atrocities happened, and were utterly abhorrent. It's just this one thing just doesn't convince me.

On the second point, fair enough, it's just been my experience that history classes rarely bother to mention, say, the horrific death toll on innocent lives that the dam bombings of Germany caused.

Squigsquasher wrote:Also, some of the war crimes levelled against Japan, from the information I've seen ...just didn't happen

Are you calling me a liar? Look up on Wikipedia "Nanking Massacre Denial" and lookat the "Analysis of photographic evidence" section. Non-Japanese historians and analysts have proven many of the pbotos to be fake.

If it was just the Japanese government denying it, then yes, I would agree with you. But it's not. Heck, there are even some Chinese people unconvinced that it happened. It's not like the holocaust which has at physical evidence backing it up. It's a single book written by a puppet of the Chinese government with some badly edited pictures.

Squigsquasher wrote:Are you calling me a liar?

Why the hell would you think that?

Because I am incredibly paranoid and I don't trust my own sister. I have a saying: Just because you think
everybody is out to get you doesn't mean they're not.
Sorry, I have spoken out of line. I have very strong feelings over this particular topic.

The Chinese may have fabricated some instances for propaganda reasons, but that shouldn't de-value the overall fact that the Japs were responsible for some of the greatest atrocities of the war.

It seems that we're eager to defend them nowadays due to our closeness and their allegiance to our Western ways and apple pie. What I frankly think is the worst crime of theirs is just utterly covering it up within their own education system.

But to rather crudely construct a parallel; if we don't let Israel's occupation of the Gaza Strip and ghettoisation of the Palestinians devalue our abhorrence of the Holocaust, why should we let Chinese hoaxes devalue our abhorrence towards Japanese war crimes? Unit 731, Nanking, PoW atrocities, the murder of the citizenry of Okinawa, etc.

I never said we should. At no point did I say we should forget how disgusting things like the Japanese occupation of Korea or Unit 731 were, and I find them just as revolting as you.

What I do find annoying, however, is accusing the Japanese people as a whole for the atrocities. My Japanese teacher Kumi, for example: she probably wasn't even alive at the time of the atrocities, and her ancestors who were alive at the time couldn't have done diddly squat about them, partly because they didn't have a clue what was going on over there, and partly because even if they did, if they had complained they would have been shot.

What responsibilty could she possibly hold for it?


I am disgusted by the actions of British troops in the colonies, but I don't think we should flagellate ourselves for it. Likewise, I think the Vietnam war was an abomination, but my beef is with the perpetrators, not the American people as a whole.

Woah, way to get personal there kiddo.

I don't recall anyone in this thread saying the Japanese *are* collectively responsible.

But speaking as a Briton with a family that contains a large number of Germans, I can say I've witnessed the problem we're experiencing here firsthand.

My aunt has asked why people can't forgive and *forget* (her words). Naturally it's wrong that the descendants of states that have committed atrocities should receive flak personally for what happened, but to *forget*? To do so would be a crime, to sweep it all under a rug. Germans live in a perpetual guilt complex that is permeated into them in school (I dunno if 90% of their history curriculum is the Holocaust, but you get me I'm sure...), now I'm not advocating the same for Japan, but to *omit* or even *alter* basic fundamental truths about the war is to do everybody that was killed a disservice... to honour war criminals in shrines likewise does the same. There is no reason to protect such behaviour. The world should move on but we must not forget.

And yes, I wish that we covered colonialism in British schools, though I'd say it'd be down to students to make their own individual conclusions as I'd say we're a nation that has yet to come to terms collectively with just how we feel about that particular legacy.

Edit:
I might also ask how the Chinese should feel; the Jews got a homeland, billions in aid from Europeans and the Americans and China (being dirty commies 'n' all) got diddly squat *and* an enemy that to this day largely denies a lot of the crimes committed against them.

If we accept Poland's arguments that war crimes are still relevant today (in Poland's case, the reduction of her population by 2/3rds affects her voting power in the EU today) couldn't China argue that the loss of millions has similarly affected her?

Hey whoa whoa whoa. I didn't say anybody on this thread had. I just said it annoyed me when people did. Not getting personal at all.

And don't call me kiddo.

Ohhh... it was my turn to be paranoid, y'all said: 'just as revolting as you'.

You mean what I find revolting, not that I myself am revolting.

I do apologise >.<

Don't worry. It happens. Tis the interwebz after all.

Albatross wrote:[
tl;dr - It's too easy to blame the Americans, and it's not entirely fair.

In this case though the US military must shoulder a lot of the blame. After all they had a team set up as mentors for this very facility, they clearly didn't do their jobs.

Indeed. The military chain of command failed, and failed hard.

Personally, this doesn't surprise me. The US are famed for some high profile and horrific cover-ups, hiding some rather sinister goings on.
For example:
-The North Carolina Sterilisation Programme.
-Operation Paperclip.
-Unit 731.
-The Guatemalan STD Experiments.

Unit 731 was an IJA medical experiment. Nothing to do with America (for once). And a bloody horrible one it was to.

Ewwwww, gross. Don't think it warrants an Auschwitz comparison, but still.

Squigsquasher wrote:Unit 731 was an IJA medical experiment. Nothing to do with America (for once). And a bloody horrible one it was to.

Yeah, I know that, but the thing is- America granted the scientists immunity from prosecution in exchange for the biological knowledge that the Japanese had gathered. That then sparked a Government cover-up.
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/01/unit-731-a-u-s-cover-up-of-cruelty/
I'm quite surprised that none of you are aware of this ...

Whoa. Now that I didn't know.

Joshua Von Wolkestadt wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Unit 731 was an IJA medical experiment. Nothing to do with America (for once). And a bloody horrible one it was to.

Yeah, I know that, but the thing is- America granted the scientists immunity from prosecution in exchange for the biological knowledge that the Japanese had gathered. That then sparked a Government cover-up.
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/01/unit-731-a-u-s-cover-up-of-cruelty/
I'm quite surprised that none of you are aware of this ...

Also granted immunity to many of the Nazi doctors and scientists who ran concentration camps, often by changing their names and sending them back to the states

Huffy wrote:

Joshua Von Wolkestadt wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Unit 731 was an IJA medical experiment. Nothing to do with America (for once). And a bloody horrible one it was to.

Yeah, I know that, but the thing is- America granted the scientists immunity from prosecution in exchange for the biological knowledge that the Japanese had gathered. That then sparked a Government cover-up.
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/01/unit-731-a-u-s-cover-up-of-cruelty/
I'm quite surprised that none of you are aware of this ...

Also granted immunity to many of the Nazi doctors and scientists who ran concentration camps, often by changing their names and sending them back to the states

Yeah, they also did that with a lot of the Nazi engineers. That was all part of Operation 'Paper Clip', of which I mentioned before hand. It is rather funny because, due to these technological marvels, created by the Nazis, the Americans were able to begin their Space programme. Initially, they began replicating V2 rockets and testing them, as they used pioneering ballistic missile technology. Then, with the work of Werner Von Braun and other German scientists, the Americans were able to advance into developing spacecraft. All of this was happening during the 'Space Race'. The modern Spy Plane is also based on kep principles, pioneered by the Germans of WWII.

CuddlySquig wrote:Ewwwww, gross. Don't think it warrants an Auschwitz comparison, but still.

Agreed. This is awful, but it's not systematic industrial genocide, and it cheapens the holocaust to compare things like this to it.

Thread retitled.

Joshua Von Wolkestadt wrote:

Huffy wrote:

Joshua Von Wolkestadt wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Unit 731 was an IJA medical experiment. Nothing to do with America (for once). And a bloody horrible one it was to.

Yeah, I know that, but the thing is- America granted the scientists immunity from prosecution in exchange for the biological knowledge that the Japanese had gathered. That then sparked a Government cover-up.
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2012/01/unit-731-a-u-s-cover-up-of-cruelty/
I'm quite surprised that none of you are aware of this ...

Also granted immunity to many of the Nazi doctors and scientists who ran concentration camps, often by changing their names and sending them back to the states

Yeah, they also did that with a lot of the Nazi engineers. That was all part of Operation 'Paper Clip', of which I mentioned before hand. It is rather funny because, due to these technological marvels, created by the Nazis, the Americans were able to begin their Space programme. Initially, they began replicating V2 rockets and testing them, as they used pioneering ballistic missile technology. Then, with the work of Werner Von Braun and other German scientists, the Americans were able to advance into developing spacecraft. All of this was happening during the 'Space Race'. The modern Spy Plane is also based on kep principles, pioneered by the Germans of WWII.

Many of the German scientist and engineers weren't really NAZI's though, many worked for the German government out of nationalistic pride, and some out of fear. There is an opinion held by many allied scientist that Werner Von Braun Insistance that hitler put money into the V rockets was a major detriment to the german war machine and may have been intentional

The Department of Defense is investigating the former NATO Training Mission Commander, Lieutenant General William Caldwell IV and his deputy, now Major General Gary Patton. Former and current military officers are testifying before the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, today Tues July 24, 2012, that LTG Caldwell admonished subordinates for contacting the DoD Inspector General about corruption and maltreatment of patients at Dawood National Military Hospital in Afghanistan.

There are two investigations, one focused on the General’s actions that allegedly violate the Military Whistleblower Protection Act, which prohibits commanders from restricting subordinates’ communication with the inspector general. The second complaint involves allegations of reprisal from a complainant who alleged that Caldwell and Patton cited partisan reasons for requesting postponement of an investigation until after the 2010 elections.

The DoD Instruction 7050.6, Military Whistleblower Reprisal Protection, requires the Services to issue guidance that identifies punishment under the UCMJ, Article 92 – “Failure to Obey Order or Regulation” for violations of the Whistleblower regulation. In this case, the two very senior military officers, if found guilty of violating the Whistleblower regulation, will most likely be subject to military administrative law, non-judicial punishment, that could include relief from duty, a letter of censure, and retirement. The retirement could be at the lowest rank at which the Generals last served honorably or in their current grade.

more
http://ap.stripes.com/dynamic/stories/U/US_AFGHAN_MILITARY_HOSPITAL?SITE=DCSAS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2012-07-24-02-52-15


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ISAF
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/oef_orbat_isaf.htm


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mentoring
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/alan-case-phd/15/290/a8

Senior Medical Mentor at the Afghan National Army (ANA) Kandahar Regional Military Hospital
MPRI / L3 Communications
June 2008 – October 2009 (1 year 5 months) FOB Lindsey, Kandahar Province, Afghanistan

Facilitate construction and support teaching of Afghan National Army (ANA) Officer and NCO medical leaders and selected staff. Develops ANA Officer Professional Development (OPD) program and annual training plan. Publishes ANA Officer Professional Development curriculum and initates OPD training plan. Publish an ANA medical facilities construction project management plan and SOP. Review and document construction progress and issues. Develops a Regional Hospital Emergency Operations Center (EOC) plan and SOP. Train selected staff on EOC SOPs. Assist in the development of a Regional Hospital Medical Disaster Plan and training/exercise program. Develop clinical consulation policy. Train key clinicians and administrators on medical regulating policies. Provide support in mentoring budgeting processes to key staff.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not playing with fire

Five articles in the UCMJ deal specifically different aspects of inappropriate behavior in public. They are Articles 88, 89, 91, 133 and 134.


example
http://www.army.mil/article/73367

Can it be that the US generally have a problem with post-war administration of occupied zones? Military campaigns tend to be short and efficient, yet once the dust has settled, things start going wrong. I realize and commend the US spending tons of money on reconstruction and aid programs, yet does that money actually arrive where it's needed? Or is it wasted on private companies who have ties to individual politicians? From what I have seen, both Iraq and Afghanistan suffered from extremely poor forethought and planning concerning the situation after a military victory, and for the future I think this needs to be adressed. Perhaps then, cases like this one could be avoided.

More direct control, less cover-ups.

@lynata.

http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/afghanistan/u-s-trying-to-track-missing-weapons-issued-to-afghan-police-1.117821

Jihadin wrote:http://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/afghanistan/u-s-trying-to-track-missing-weapons-issued-to-afghan-police-1.117821

That is, of course, another problem - though not quite what I was aiming at.

It does play into the similar thought, however. I also recall US troops giving radios to locals so they can call in aerial bombardment against the Taliban - and then the very same radios being used for internal struggles between the clans. IIRC in the example provided by the article, an A-10 bombed a wedding because the contact on the ground told them it was Taliban. The idea in itself was good, but obviously there needs to be better screening about who is trusted with weapons, money, or the ability to call in an airstrike.

Basically: good intentions, but the execution was fethed up. And this seems to happen way too frequently.

Probably because we go to war too frequently.

Attack your probaly thinking

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/world/asia/07afghan.html

Why its happening

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/17/taliban-human-shields

...

Response not available. That's sickening. They've got money from the US government to run this place (and come on, US soldiers needing medical treatment? It's a blank freaking check) and this is the best they can do?

That's my theory, anyway, nations express subtle ideological changes through headgear...

As the Lord of Headgear I can neither confitm nor deny that this may or may not be true, under certain ambiguous circumstances.

No coalition forces soldiers are taking to Afghan hospitals. All Coalition forces are flown to and treated on the FoBs. By coalition forces its ISAF. Including the EoD dogs from whatever country who are te same stauts as the coalition troops