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Just makes me think the world can be such an ugly place.. absolutely horrific...

Time and time again I wonder why our army (and by extension) the British people are involved in this conflict (if you can call it that). After ten years of military presence, when will our government finally realise that we are not going to change anything, and bring our soldiers home?

before or about 2014

Pacific wrote:Time and time again I wonder why our army (and by extension) the British people are involved in this conflict (if you can call it that). After ten years of military presence, when will our government finally realise that we are not going to change anything, and bring our soldiers home?

Because change is theoretically possible, if you implement the correct measures on-site. The way I see it, that's just not happening, at least not as much as it could (considering all the money involved).

It's a sad thing when opportunities go to waste, especially when it concerns the future of an entire country.

Still, progress has been made - this should not be forgotten. Every Taliban execution prevented, every school where little girls are allowed to learn, every well built to supply a village with clean water is a step forward. It'll just take some time to overcome decades of violence and hatred since by now it has become a generational issue.

Pacific wrote:Just makes me think the world can be such an ugly place.. absolutely horrific...

Time and time again I wonder why our army (and by extension) the British people are involved in this conflict (if you can call it that). After ten years of military presence, when will our government finally realise that we are not going to change anything, and bring our soldiers home?

There is a drawdown this year and by the end of 2014 the only British troops left in Afghanistan will be in an advisory/training/support role; in theory at least.

The resconstruction of Afghanistan was extrememly badly managed in the early days and even now it doesn't seem to be especially well run. That being said things are getting better but in a country such as Afghanistan which hasn't had an effective government in decades corruption is an inevitabilaty.

From an ethical point of view I am a lot more comfortable serving in Afghanistan than I was in Iraq.

Oh so there's no US staff and it's just American-funded?

Well then, it's just the ineptitude of the natives.

Henners91 wrote:Oh so there's no US staff and it's just American-funded?

Well then, it's just the ineptitude of the natives.

There was US staff, they didn't have any clinical duties as far as I am aware but they were there as 'mentors'. I'm not sure exactly what that entails in this instance but I would imagine it would include training and/or assesing the Afghan staff and ensuring that patients were given at least a basic level of clinical care.

There was US staff, they didn't have any clinical duties as far as I am aware but they were there as 'mentors'. I'm not sure exactly what that entails in this instance but I would imagine it would include training and/or assesing the Afghan staff and ensuring that patients were given at least a basic level of clinical care.

Posted "mentoring" in afghanistan. Afghan hospitals are not staffed by any coalition troops. Mentoring units cannot enforce doctrine/policy/standards. The SIDPER/NIDPER email confirmed the situation of the CoC. Which I'm sure they related to their equivalent counterparts in the MoD or ANA. At that point its all we can do. Yes we funded it but we do not run it

Jihadin wrote:At that point its all we can do. Yes we funded it but we do not run it

There is always more "we" can do - such as threatening to cut the funding. Although I would agree that by now it is to late, it is disconcerting to hear that a US general attempted to cover-up how bad the situation in that hospital was.

“When Col Pagel, accompanied by a young USMC Capt. attorney, asked me if there was any reason to believe LTG Caldwell delayed the investigations into the NMH I replied: ‘Any reason to believe? I know it for a fact.’”
-- Col. Geller

"Lt. Gen. Caldwell screamed at these three officers, waving his finger at them for trying to bring in the DOD IG." Caldwell responded: "There is nothing wrong in this command that we can't fix ourselves."
-- Col. Carozza

Why did this commander even attempted to cover up the situation, what were his motivs if the fault lay 100% with the Afghans? There seems to be more to this story still.

Anyways, the entire government was put into power by the Coalition forces. Lack of oversight and thus rampant corruption is a situation that could have been averted if Afghanistan had been managed a little more like post-WW2 Germany. Together with a proper "Marshall plan", this might have been better for the country.

Yes we can threatened to cut off funds but it will not fixed the problem. If we stopped funding the hospitals how do you think this thread be then. Something like
"US Military stopped funding local Afghan Hospital creating Midevil like conditions for patients."

Also be aware its not just the US military providing funds and equipment. US Dept of State is also a major player in this.

All we can do as "Boots on ground" is report the situation. Its up to the governent US/Afghan since its now in their ballpark.

Jihadin wrote:Yes we can threatened to cut off funds but it will not fixed the problem. If we stopped funding the hospitals how do you think this thread be then. Something like
"US Military stopped funding local Afghan Hospital creating Midevil like conditions for patients."

I don't think so - sure, you could spin a story that way, but upon investigating details I think most people would understand the reason. You could use the money elsewhere to avoid the potential fallout, too. Like giving it to Doctors Without Frontiers and have them build their own hospital.

Jihadin wrote:Also be aware its not just the US military providing funds and equipment. US Dept of State is also a major player in this.

And it's not just the US as a nation either. I'm not trying to point fingers at specific countries or organisations, I'm saying stuff is going wrong and it should be fixed instead of covered up.

Jihadin wrote:All we can do as "Boots on ground" is report the situation. Its up to the governent US/Afghan since its now in their ballpark.

The "boots on the ground" in the person of this general failing to report is what this is about, I think. Partially, at least.
Corruption cannot be fought by looking the other way, or possibly even being involved in it.

If there is nothing the US could have done, then why was the person in charge trying so hard to cover it up?

If there is nothing the US could have done, then why was the person in charge trying so hard to cover it up?

This is best left to someone who is prior service to answer besides me.

Who was it that asked me awhile back about OER's and NCOer's?

Well thats quite nasty.

There really should be better oversight of where and what the "funding" is used for cause this just makes us look bad.

Like I said we can only report the corruption and pass it up the chain of command. Reason why it makes the US military look bad is we're the ones funding the projects by doing a direct transfer from our hands to theirs. US Military cannot be oversight for the Afghan government

As a United States Army Warrant Officer, I can say that reporting to my superiors that a billion dollar project had failed so tragically on my watch would be career ender - especially if he had been OIC for a while. He may have been delaying the probe until he could either A) come up with a solution, B) pick up 4 stars, or C) get reassigned so that it was no longer his problem.

d-usa wrote:If there is nothing the US could have done, then why was the person in charge trying so hard to cover it up?

Because politicians are gak and only look out for themselves, and most general officers are just politicians in uniform?

Sgt_Scruffy wrote:failed so tragically on my watch

But if it was "your watch", it would also be your responsibility to get it right somehow. I do not think this general would have suffered any consequences from pointing out that something has gone wrong if he had no hand in it. After all, wasn't this why he is there? To provide overside, give advise and make sure everything runs smoothly? If the general was not involved in dirty business himself and had no authority to simply order any changes, why not blow the whistle? The only other possibility that springs to mind would be that this commander was covering for one or more of the Afghans, perhaps protecting a friend he made, knowing that they would get into trouble if he'd alert the higher-ups. But would personal friendship alone override the wellbeing of so many human beings? Or did he simply not care about the condition of these patients until it was already too late and the investigation already underway, only then making it a priority to fix these issues?

Meh, I don't like to speculate whilst having so few facts, but I maintain that something smells very fishy.

Because politicians are gak and only look out for themselves, and most general officers are just politicians in uniform?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/military/july-dec00/military_9-25.html

Jihadin wrote:
Yes we funded it but we do not run it

Thats not the point. It was US funded and the US military was aware of the extremely poor standard of care at this hospital yet did effectively nothing. Saying that there was nothing that the US military/administration could do is simply wrong, For example they could have thretened to pull funding unless conditions improve.

Granted, it's not an institutional thing but rather the feth-up of a single individual - the commanding officer. I just hope he actually gets to feel some consequences for this. Ideally, the military learns from this and improves its policies somehow so that a repeat incident is made less likely.


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Granted, it's not an institutional thing but rather the feth-up of a single individual - the commanding officer. A number of his officers attempted to intervene but were apparently put on the short leash. I just hope this general actually gets to feel some consequences for this. Ideally, the military learns from this and improves its policies somehow so that a repeat incident is made less likely.

Thats not the point. It was US funded and the US military was aware of the extremely poor standard of care at this hospital yet did effectively nothing. Saying that there was nothing that the US military/administration could do is simply wrong, For example they could have thretened to pull funding unless conditions improve.

What makes you think we haven't tried this approach. Hell there's entire fleet of Frag 5 and 7's (uparmored HUMVEES) still not turned over to the Afghans