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Baronyu wrote:+10 this.

Having huskblade AP2 ain't gonna change that much, we still have to suffer through overwatch and challenges denying our huskblade attacks on the entire squad, so it isn't gonna push us into the new ultra autowin assault army automatically.

Not sure about the agoniser being AP2 though, may be I've already converted my mindset that I'm gonna use my assault units to take care of 3+ units and leave 2+ to darklights.... But I wouldn't say 'no' if agoniser does become AP2!

So may be +9.8 this...?

Either AP 2, or the Agoniser counts as a proper poison weapon. I'll take one or the other, but for 20 points per model, the agoniser needs a little somethin' somethin' extra to make it worth its points compared to what it is now.

Lokas, ignoring the shouting...

I'd honestly be okay with DE huskblades being AP2, though, like I said, I feel like it should consistent throughout multiple armies.

Agonisers AP2? I think what you'd really like is it to not be 6th edition. Or, if they became AP2, they'd need to be a bit more expensive.

Re: axes, I haven't fought termie-termie, but I'm expecting a lot of mutual destruction. I'd expect similar from termies vs. power axes. I'm not sure why a marine has a more likely chance vs. terminators... he'll get hit on the same roll, and splatted on the same.

re: saves-- my friend's been playing with the old 5+'s (both out of the game for a while)... that certainly changes things.

...this argument is getting heated about stuff no one here has the ability to change, so it seems rather pointless.

Summary of my argument before I leave. AP2 at initiative is okay, but should be more accessible to elites (not Elites), or expensive.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

quilava1 wrote:as DE lack in volume firepower (especially anti-tank/termie power)

A raider squad can put out 4 S8/AP2/Lance. I can't think of many troops choices that can manage that.

How exactly can a troop raider squad take 4 S8 Ap2 Lance that will be actually worth it at a range that avoids the termie survivors pasting the raider and those inside


A Trueborn squad can at range, to be sure, but they are elites.

Kabalite warriors can take 1 dark lance (and had better not be moving (death to a skimmer) or they'll be snap-shotting it (and thus not hitting) ) and one Blaster per squad.

IF you spend out for a Sybarite you can add a Blast Pistol (which has a 6'' range) and if you get to use it on termies it means you are already dead, as they will charge you next turn.

The raider also has a DL.



So if you are within 6'' and not intending on moving away, yes you can get 4 S 8, AP 2 shots.

Three will hit, if you are lucky.

Assuming they all wound, one will be saved by a 5++ save or two with a 3++ save.

End result : One dead termieif they are regular termies, two if they are TH/SS termies.

For this you are sacrificing 200 pts or so of Kabalites and transport, unable to move away, vehicle hit automatically due to not moving, with a decent chance of the vehicle exploding due to PF or TH (and killing half the squad inside due to low T and crappy armour, maybe pinning the rest) .

And if your opponent is in any way competent he will plug the non-moving (and thus non-jinking) raider with someone else, and then have the termies wade into and destroy the Kabalites instead. They will have no CC weapons that can even scratch the paint on TDA, and will all die...


Yeah, great plan..

Denkstrum wrote:I think a lot of folks forget our AP 2 weaponry that we mount on our ravages and raiders. 36 inch range and 3 shots apiece for a disintragator cannon. it handles terminators extremely well, that is 9 shots coming from a ravager at that range.

That doesn't mean CC should be devoid of elite-killers, especially since DE is all about the combo of ranged firepower and fast, surgical melee strikes if you really want to clear an objective or wipe out a key unit. Just sitting back 35 inches and blasting away with Ravagers and Venoms at terminators and power armor gone to ground in terrain sounds like a really, really boring way to spend a whole edition!


I am very hopeful about this. If it turns out to be a smart, comprehensive FAQ that restores more viable build to DE (and all other armies), GW will get nothing but praise from me.

Especially since it -might- mean a shift toward more thorough and frequent rule updates that (in my humble opinion) the hobby increasingly requires in a world fileld of interwebs and MMOs and horseless carriages and portable abacus and stuff.

Mocking a poor argument does not equal shouting.

That's the thing though. Agonisers are expensive. They're not quite rare, but only available on models that can be mitigated by challenges, precision shots, or a number of other factors. So we're already paying a premium for a model that can be mitigated, but putting AP 2 on that model would be too much? That'd unbalance the game?

Iiiiiii'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Agonisers AP2? I think what you'd really like is it to not be 6th edition. Or, if they became AP2, they'd need to be a bit more expensive.

Really? Agonizers are already almost the cost of a power Fist. They can almost never go beyond a 4+ to wound, while a fist will usually be going for 2+. Unlike the fist, the Agonizer is crap against vehicles. The only advantage it has over the Fist is that it is fast, but that is mitigated by the fact that it is always placed in a much, much more fragile model who will likely not be around as long as the PF sergeant/champion/HQ.

@Lokas

I like poisoned agoniser, our archon can bring the court and actually benefit from that 2+ buff! And I like the idea of DE being all poisony, both in combat and shooting. Our usually low S should be balance enough, since we won't get to use that reroll most of the time.

Want a way to deal with Termies? Simple, take an allied Farseer, give him doom and guide. Or go with Divination and Prescience and hope for the ability that forces them to reroll armor saves. Cast on Termies and Warriors, then just shoot him to death. I did this with Dire Avengers the other night, and even with an Apothecary the 7 man squad died real quick.

Or use your ravagers. Use the millions of brightlances you can bring to a game. Unless you are playing a straight Death Wing army chances are you won't run into more then 10 models with a 2+ save. Concentrated fire power will get the job done.

Dark Eldar have plenty of options to deal with Terminators. Even more so with being able to bring allies to the fight.

quilava1 wrote:2+ saves are worth their points already, since the average power sword can't hurt them any more than a chainsword.

Um, that's only been true for the past 30 days. If somehow Dark Eldar are special cupcaked into their own special category where their power weapons are ap2 or if that change is made global, that's no longer true. I play deathwing and I can tell you that every battle (regardless of opponent) is an uphill battle due to every tom/dick/harry power weapon ignoring the only strength my army has.

djones520 wrote:Dark Eldar have plenty of options to deal with Terminators. Even more so with being able to bring allies to the fight.

Point isn't that we don't have option to deal with termies, but that we like having options, as anyone would. Also many of us picked DE because we like the synergy of high firepower and mobile assault units, current 6th ed put the shooting aspect so high above our assault units that even as a casual, I feel like an idiot to field more assault than shooting. Yes, casual can still want to win...

warboss wrote:
Um, that's only been true for the past 30 days. If somehow Dark Eldar are special cupcaked into their own special category where their power weapons are ap2 or if that change is made global, that's no longer true. I play deathwing and I can tell you that every battle (regardless of opponent) is an uphill battle due to every tom/dick/harry power weapon ignoring the only strength my army has.

Reading 1st post helps. I believe the "good news" is that our huskblade, a rare premium price power weapon, supposedly available to our best of the best(you know, fluff-wise, kinda like our termie, but more stabbing than defending), will be AP2. As I've said on the last page, we have 2 HQ choices that could take it, one of them is scary but we could only bring 2(sacrificing our chance to bring haemy for pain tokens though), the other one has subpar profile for an HQ choice(haemy is only for pain token giving).

@warboss's post under mine

Again, where are you getting that we're getting army-wide AP2 weapon from? I read the whole thread, there are people hoping for agoniser being AP2, and as Lokas, Sephyr and others have explained, it's more balancing our assault with our shooting than "OMFG DE ARE THE NEW POSTER BOYS". The OP mentioned a possible hinting of our huskblade getting buffed to be termie-killer, and that's it.

Lemme put it this way, if all these rumours and wishes(from DE) turn out to be true, this is what will actually happen, ingame term, not in some sorta vacuum where our assault units are on top of your army on turn -10:

You'll still be shooting our transports out, just as easily as before, but you'll see the return of assault/hybrid DE players, instead of every DE players who want to win resorting to the WAAC darklight spam list. Yes, WAAC will still be darklight spam, but these changes will just make our assault build back on par with the rest of the game's assault armies.

So, stop mashing that panic button.

P.S. Also, to mitigate our S3 problem, we need to buy combat drugs on our archon, our coven units and loldrakes can't even get combat drugs. And then you have to roll on the 1/6 chance to get the S+1 drug. Tell me, can you guarantee your rending hit to trigger AP2 100% of the time? You must be a wizard, or your dice are loaded. If we want to use FC to improve our S, which only works on the 1st turn of combat, we'd need to either, again, bring drugs and roll on that 1/6 chance to get a pain token, then pay for coven units and coven HQ to bring us those pain tokens. Chronos is a joke, read Thor's tactica(I know, 5th ed, but it's true still). Not to mention bringing more coven units/haemy means they'll use up the slots for our other units. Then there is the fact that they can only pain token a few of our units. Yes, we can earn our pain tokens by killing your units, but the keyword is "earn", we'd still have to wipe two of your units with S3 attacks before that can happen, and by then, if you still have to complain, you might as well call GW and ask for autowin dice for your army.

Baronyu wrote:1) I just meant that power axes don't benefit DE as much as it does for other armies. Our speed is our advantage, we paid for our high initiative by having pathetic S and T, taking that away will just make us subpar marine.

Yeah, about that pathetic S. We're talking about agonizers which wound on a 4+ regardless of toughness and incubi weapons that are str5 as an option. Where is that pathetic strength in regards to DE getting ap2 unlike everyone else's special power weapons? By the way, str3 is not pathetic... it's actually the average across the vast majority of non-marine armies and the DE have plenty of ways of getting around the "average" without needed a special cupcake ap2 bonus to help. I'm a fan of the terminator buff in this edition but I'm not a fan of getting rid of that for one army. If they decide to change special power weapons to ap2, they need to do it for all armies and not just DE. Either way, I think that change back to the 3.5-5th edition mechanic is a bad idea.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Baronyu wrote:Reading 1st post helps. I believe the "good news" is that our huskblade, a rare premium price power weapon, supposedly available to our best of the best(you know, fluff-wise, kinda like our termie, but more stabbing than defending), will be AP2.

The thread has moved on from just the first post with people chiming in about their agonizers and incubi weapons (basically every special power weapon) needing to be ap2. Reading the rest of the thread helps. I'm fine with them changing a single weapon to ap2 but I'm countering the argument that all of them need it.

Ok, yes, on that, I agree with you. Like I was just replying to Lokas a few posts back, agoniser being AP2 might be a bit overdone, but him and Sephyr do have a point. I won't repeat what they said, I agree with them, so you could read theirs and pretend I'm making the same points.

As for incubi weapons(I'm a DE player who can't remember what they're called... ) being AP2, I don't know, would kinda make klaivex and drahzar an expensive nothing again, but being that they're supposed to be our best assault unit in the army, who has to pay a lot to get S3 AP3 template shooting for 1 model, and them costing about the same as a termie assault unit, with no grenade or 2+ save or invulnerable... I could see it as a balance. They do take up our elite slot, so we're taking less S8 AP2 shots for better melee...

And I editted my previous post twice... So my replies are kinda all over the place, sorry...

And you're forgetting that if all these rumours are true, and we're getting a new batch of FAQs, your army/armies may also see some sorta buffs. [joke]Unless you're the "OP" army/armies, then I hope you get autolose dice.[/joke]

Lokas wrote:Mocking a poor argument does not equal shouting.

Not going in to anything on DE argument, all caps is shouting. The mocking was just the icing on the proverbial cake of your most esteemed case.

DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).

Fragile armies are very hard to play in this game. When a stiff breeze will cause an entire squad and their transport to die, you either are a) running or b) delivering the knock out blow. If I have to punch, I HAVE to make it count, because I can't take the return hits. Its the weirdest feeling in the world spending 4 turns of a game carefully dissecting an opponents army, taking almost no casualties, only to know that on turn 4-5 when I have to move forward to contest objectives, I'm going to die, a horrible, horrible death.

DE need to have their tools be effective. AP 3 str 3 power weapons is really not effective. Unless of course we see a massive reversal in 6th edition and everyone puts down their space marines to pick up sisters of battle armies. I can TOTALLY see this happening. Just you wait.

DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).

If this is a tac squad (which tend to hover around 215 points without a transport, much more than those wyches) than you just caused 3 wounds through saves. The tac squad will then swing back with 6 str4 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 wounds through dodge save. The power fist will add another .415 wounds. You're winning. Most dark eldar players can't comprehend having a 16 point model with one attack.

Compared to ork boyz, well. Nothing looks good compared to ork boyz. Ork boyz are so power creeped that they make every other close combat troop in the game look bad.

Fragile armies are very hard to play in this game. When a stiff breeze will cause an entire squad and their transport to die, you either are a) running or b) delivering the knock out blow. If I have to punch, I HAVE to make it count, because I can't take the return hits. Its the weirdest feeling in the world spending 4 turns of a game carefully dissecting an opponents army, taking almost no casualties, only to know that on turn 4-5 when I have to move forward to contest objectives, I'm going to die, a horrible, horrible death.

That's not new though, that's how they worked in fifth as well.

DE need to have their tools be effective. AP 3 str 3 power weapons is really not effective. Unless of course we see a massive reversal in 6th edition and everyone puts down their space marines to pick up sisters of battle armies. I can TOTALLY see this happening. Just you wait.

Dark eldar in sixth need to not buy wyches to work well. Their close combat punch wasn't meaningfully diminished, but overwatch has made the wych into a second class citizen. Range heavy DE still work very well.

Goresaw wrote:DE are a little different than other armies because our units are sort of expensive for what you get. Most marine players can't comprehend just how bad strength 3 is. Its abysmally terrible. Couple that in with the fact you'll save the majority of the wounds... I had 10 wyches and engage a tactical squad. I killed 1 marine the first turn. 2 marines the second turn. 1 marine the third turn... it was just embarrassing. 9 wyches and an agonizer hexatrix will put maybe 6 wounds on a marine squad. Only one of them will generally be a power weapon wound. Thats pretty terrible. Compared to an ork boyz squad of comparable points, the Orks will put 15 wounds on that marine squad (assuming the marine player rolls average and only kills 3 boyz).

Yeah, and one time I had a squad of termies that deepstruck the turn before get hit by a battlecannon and I lost 4 of the 5 models! Clearly that means that termies need to go back to the 2d6 pick the best armor roll thing they had in 2nd edition! The only thing your story "proves" is that you rolled worse than average by at least a standard deviation. A naked squad of 9 witches with the hexatrix w/ agonizer should result in 2.5 dead marines (and that's without choosing any of their squad close combat upgrades) instead of the 1 you got. Your killing one doesn't prove anything more than my own bad luck example does.

A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).

Yes, DE are meant to be fragile, we aren't complaining about that, getting more AP2 weapons won't make us more durable. But you know what we're unhappy about the 6th ed changes though?

1) We're meant to be a glass hammer/cannon army, but our hammer aspect got taken away. Our mobility is just a tiny bit better than other armies now(termies can charge the same distance as we do), our high initiative is the only thing left for us that still run on the "DE are fast" MO. Our melee abilities are lowered, we can't deal with 2+ at all in CC.

2) We really want to avoid darklight spam when possible, but the changes made it so that we have to use more darklight to stay... playable. Casual players do want to win, you know. We won't run WAAC, but that doesn't mean we will lose on purpose.

I'll say it again, if all these rumours and wishes turn out to be true, it'll just make us the actual glass hammer/cannon that we're meant to be, instead of being a subpar assault army/decent shooting army.

Beside, as DE opponents, wouldn't you rather see more varied army list than just "Yup, I'm fielding 483040 dark lances, they're gonna move very little to claim jink save, then fire at you from my deployment zone. Combat drugs? Getting more pain token? Why bother? I only need FNP and combat drugs don't help our shooting side at all!"?

Baron gets what I'm trying to say.

And lets not forget that wych squad isn't just 135 ish points (with an agonzier). Its actually 200, if you buy the raider, and 212 with grenades... 222 with flicker...

You can't get 10 wyches to a squad of tac marines without the raider (or hell, you can't get 20 wyches across the board either!). Wyches stand a snowballs chance in hell in open ground. Heck, even the raider is more of a curse than a blessing. If you blow up the raider, more than half of the wyches are going to die thanks to the explosion in open top vehicles being str 4 now.

I don't get all the negativity and hostility towards bringing DE hand to hand a little bit back. Everyone here agrees that DE hand to hand isn't really all that great, now, and in the past. So instead of trying to make it a viable option, everyone is just saying "well go spam venoms like everyone else." Thats like telling a doctor it hurts when I move my legs, and he says "don't move your legs!"

Every army deserves a "Ward Level" of power and flexability. No army should be reduced to mono-build status because only certain units are good and the rest are lackluster.

Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).

What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.

edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.

warboss wrote:

Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).

What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.

edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.

So we'll throw out all the other variables at play? Flamer in overwatch? Cost difference in transports? Wargear options? Ability to get in place? Comparison of transports? As much as GW tries to balance this game around your method, it never works out that way. There are countless variables in play and the odds of a wyche army getting where it wants to at full strength are substantially less than it is for a unit of marines to do the same. Especially when you consider, and you seem to ignore, that aside from both being a troops choice, neither really has anything in common. A unit of warriors has more in common with a unit of tacticles.

Nvs wrote:

warboss wrote:

Baronyu wrote:A tac squad is a primarily shooting unit, or at best, a hybrid unit, a wych unit is a primarily assault unit, tac squad can take decent guns as well as holding ground in combat, wych units get 1 poisoned shot per model at 12", 1 plasma grenade(S4 AP4) at 8", and 1 blast pistol(costly) at 6", our shooting with wyches is terrible. I believe the comparison he was making is that as a dedicated assault unit, we could barely wipe a tac squad, a less than optimal assault unit... Which is a tad.. broken, wouldn't you say? All 3 units he compared are troop choices: tac squad(hybrid/shooting depend how you look at it, I say shooting), wyches(assault), and boyz(assault).

What I see is a naive (at best) or willfully ignorant (at worst) example of cherry picking bad examples combined with a bad luck rolls. The basic tact squad with only "free" upgrades of the heavy bolter and flamer is 170. The squad he is comparing it (9 wyches, agonizer hex) is only 130. If you're even remotely considering proposing a fair example to complain about, the least effort you can put in is to have comparable points (which in this case would be 13 wyches + hex as above). With a +1 ws for the combat drugs, they charge and kill over 4 marines (4.222) with the loss of 1.333 of their own (assuming the sergeant doesn't die). When you compare an equal points example, the wyches win hands down.

edit: The above is assuming no challenges were made for simplicity.

So we'll throw out all the other variables at play? Flamer in overwatch? Cost difference in transports? Wargear options? Ability to get in place? Comparison of transports? As much as GW tries to balance this game around your method, it never works out that way. There are countless variables in play and the odds of a wyche army getting where it wants to at full strength are substantially less than it is for a unit of marines to do the same. Especially when you consider, and you seem to ignore, that aside from both being a troops choice, neither really has anything in common. A unit of warriors has more in common with a unit of tacticles.

Guy, lets be realistic. Tactical marines are awful because they are overcosted and bad at everything they are meant to do. Wyches are awful because overwatch seriously diminishes their assault potential and creates instances where they are physically incapable of assaulting (burna boyz, shoota boyz) without vanishing. You are comparing a unit that has always been and will always be bad to a unit that became bad because overwatch is a badly implemented rule. Point for point wyches anihalate tacs in close combat just as tacs anihalate wyches with guns. Pure mathematics bares this out. What you should be discussing is why both of those units are sub optimal at their intended duty, not throwing out hyperbole and bad math to pretend they're magically worse.

No one in sixth edition should take either of those two units. Realistically in sixth edition few assault units should ever be taken at all. It's the worst edition for assault oriented armies that this game has ever had.

As a long time DE player I've never felt the need to kill terminators in CC. Shredding them with range has always been effective. .I don't see the need for Agonisers to be AP2

Husk blades are expensive, HQ only items...I wouldn't mind them being AP2 but my DE army isn't going to fall apart without them.

I'm more worried about GW changing Tyranid Boneswords to AP3 to be honest. HTH Warriors just became scary again...

ShumaGorath wrote:Guy, lets be realistic. Tactical marines are awful because they are overcosted and bad at everything they are meant to do. Wyches are awful because overwatch seriously diminishes their assault potential and creates instances where they are physically incapable of assaulting (burna boyz, shoota boyz) without vanishing. You are comparing a unit that has always been and will always be bad to a unit that became bad because overwatch is a badly implemented rule. Point for point wyches anihalate tacs in close combat just as tacs anihalate wyches with guns. Pure mathematics bares this out. What you should be discussing is why both of those units are sub optimal at their intended duty, not throwing out hyperbole and bad math to pretend they're magically worse.

No one in sixth edition should take either of those two units. Realistically in sixth edition few assault units should ever be taken at all. It's the worst edition for assault oriented armies that this game has ever had.

Was gonna respond, @warboss, but here, the voice of reasons. And I really don't wanna spoil the good news thread because a few are terrified by DE lolassaults...

Truth is, if I ignore everything like you did to make a point, I can probably make tau firewarrior squad beats an assault unit in assault, but that's just silly. In reality, if DE is to get agoniser and incubi weapon as AP2, you're gonna challenge our sarge upgrade because they're the only one allowed with the agoniser. Our HQ unit will be the only one immune to such challenge tactic, but rightfully so, HQ should have an use... And ours are mostly CC as well... Incubi? Well, as I've said before, they're a premium cost unit with slightly better durability than average DE, but T3 3+ is gonna be terribly easy to take care of, they should be able to do some damage in CC, 285 points with standard upgraded venom and no upgrade on incubi, that's 5 incubi with no grenade or ranged option... 15 S4 AP2 I5 attacks on charge(if you're in the open), and that is if you don't wreck our AV10 HP2 vehicle 1st... Oh, did I mention they take up the slot for blasterborn? So you have 4 less blaster to deal with for every unit of incubi we bring(considering the points difference, you're probably gonna be missing a lot of our darklight!)

So on paper, AP2 on our expensive assault-only elite unit, AP2 on our army-sarge-upgrade/HQ wide agoniser and AP2 huskblade sound very terrifying. But try looking at the big picture, we aren't getting any more durable, we still rely on our raider/venom to get close, our AV10 skimmers that make every S4 guns feel like they have the gauss rules(6 to glance), not to mention if we decide to all or nothing and flat out our transports to your end, you can just assault them with your S4 attacks/krak grenade and take their WS1 lameness down. On the grand scheme of things, dealing with DE will still be the same, so I'll say it again... stop panicking.

If I played DE--I would worry less about killing terminators and more about how badly the new transport/HTH rules nerfed by army.

So, you move up with a HTH unit in a Raider--watch it get made a wreck, take Str. 4 hits, then next turn you move up--can't assault, get shot---then the turn after you finally assault (something), take overwatch shots then get to swing. Ugh.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

*3rd-6th have seen numerous attempts to make termies tough, from the original straight 2+ save, to 5++, to various iterations of silly storm shields, and finally the new power weapon abilities.. don't know about original terminators

They had 3+ saves on 2d6 after Rogue Trader. Lascannons had -6 to save, so terminators saved on 9+ to lascannons. They could have SS too which was 4+ save unmodified on top of 3+ iirc.

AgeOfEgos wrote:If I played DE--I would worry less about killing terminators and more about how badly the new transport/HTH rules nerfed by army.

So, you move up with a HTH unit in a Raider--watch it get made a wreck, take Str. 4 hits, then next turn you move up--can't assault, get shot---then the turn after you finally assault (something), take overwatch shots then get to swing. Ugh.

If they made us more damaging, I'd say we're fine with being even less durable this ed. Full on glass hammer/cannoning!

*IMO!! Not speaking for all DE out there...!

I just love the cupcake comment!!! Also don't mess with da orks or we will find you. DE have maybe the best maneuverability in the game. I don't see that they need ap2 CC weapons. They have enough firepower to deal with silly termies. Mega nobz maybe not, but the orks are best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AgeOfEgos wrote:If I played DE--I would worry less about killing terminators and more about how badly the new transport/HTH rules nerfed by army.

Oh yeah. Personally I think the only good news for DE at this point would be a codex update...one not written by Phil Kelly.

AP2 husk blades aren't going to fix a damn thing. If that's really what he thinks are the worst problems facing DE right now...lol, wow.

Baronyu wrote:Truth is, if I ignore everything like you did to make a point, I can probably make tau firewarrior squad beats an assault unit in assault, but that's just silly. In reality, if DE is to get agoniser and incubi weapon as AP2, you're gonna challenge our sarge upgrade because they're the only one allowed with the agoniser.

I simply worked with the "example" given and changed it only to equalize the points (which were substantially off) as well as standardize the rolls (which were also coincidentally off the average in favor of the "woe is me, dark eldar!" arguement). As for the equally absurd firewarrior example, feel free to show how that one works in a PM as I'd be amused to see it. Either way, as shuma pointed out, these examples operate in a vacuum and don't represent the width and breath of the actual game. Using a ridiculous "example" of 10 wyches losing close combat to a much more expensive tactical squad due to bad rolls on their part doesn't do the real discussion of whether or not they need a boost any justice.

Baronyu wrote:
So on paper, AP2 on our expensive assault-only elite unit, AP2 on our army-sarge-upgrade/HQ wide agoniser and AP2 huskblade sound very terrifying. But try looking at the big picture, we aren't getting any more durable, we still rely on our raider/venom to get close, our AV10 skimmers that make every S4 guns feel like they have the gauss rules(6 to glance), not to mention if we decide to all or nothing and flat out our transports to your end, you can just assault them with your S4 attacks/krak grenade and take their WS1 lameness down. On the grand scheme of things, dealing with DE will still be the same, so I'll say it again... stop panicking.

It's not panicking but simply asking WHY dark eldar need this particular boost to all their special power weapons compared to other armies (other than the reason being that the people proposing the change play them and stand to benefit). What about regular eldar? Don't they need it just as much? Their CC units took a big hit with ap3 and they have the same rough stats as DE? How about Blood Angels with their sanguinary guard builds? They cost almost as much as a terminator and now stand no chance versus them... their t4 and 2+ save is as effective as a gretchin statline versus powerfists or the dreaded TH/SS build. Does that unit need a special exception to the special power weapon is ap3 rule? How about the lowest of the low, the IG? Don't they need a boost? Their stats are absolute crap compared to your dark eldar and the power weapon upgrade is an absolute joke on them in 6e since they'll effectively be going AFTER everyone but tau and necrons in close combat. They're more fragile than the DE as well versus both shooting and close combat; shouldn't their powerswords be made extra special to counteract their general crappyness? The point is that this case can me made for practically every army out there and giving everyone exceptions to the rule makes the rule itself an exception. They've made the decision to limit things that affect 2+ saves; reversing that due to panicking on YOUR part less than a month after introducing it is a bad idea. Do I think 2+ saves will become more useful and more common on the tabletop? Yes. Are there existing ways of dealing with them in some fashion in every army? For the most part, yes. The difference between my position and yours is that you think DE should have every possible way of dealing with them in the game instead of just a selection. I disagree. I don't mind (as I said earlier) if a limited weapon like the dusk blade gets the bump to ap2 as I think that HQs should have a way of dealing with 2+ saves. The need doesn't extend IMO to every single character in that codex (which is what giving agonizers and incubi weapons that ability means). So, please, take your own advice and stop panicking. If 6 months to a year from now, terminators are dominating the meta in most local scenes and tournies.. then they need to address the situation on a character-wide scale instead of just for a few select HQs and Elites.

I agree that fully half of each embarked unit dying on a Explodes! result is probably a bigger drag on the army than the AP of its CC weapons.

But we were merely addressing the OP's example. Right now, for DE HQs, if you want to face terminators, go Lelith, Drazhar or go home; you will lose almost every channenge to 2+ armor simply because there is no weapon that lets you cause consistent damage.

As I said, all MeQ armies have a weapon option for sergents to do AP2 damage: the Power Fist. It's not really odd to expect most others to have similar tools. I'm alright with Incubi Klaives being AP3, even if they should have gotten a little something to make up for their suddenly worse transports, overwatch danger and etc. The klaivex has an AP option and that's enough.

The average Agonizer causes what, 1 wound on the charge, and against terminators that gets further filtered by their inv saves (5++ or, most often, 3++). We're not talking about a weapon you can spam here. Also, remember that now, unlike before, you can actually pick out the Agonizer bearer with precision shots, overwatch and other stuff that plain didn't exist before for almost all armies.