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By terrain i meant cover, and not taking vehicles hurts them in the fact that most flyers (Vendettas, Doom Scythes, etc.) tend to do better against tanks than infantry. (at least in my experience)

Getting cover saves against fun things like Vendettas and Doom Scythes keeps survivability up.

Though, the best way to counter flyers is to probably get within 18" of the opponents board edge and laugh as they over fly you. Especially the non imperial ones that can't go to hover mode. (By Counter I mean 'render useless', as it'll take them two turns to turn around. The best way to kill them is skyfire + interceptor.)

The enemy can of course come in at an angle so they don't fly over you.

Crazyterran wrote:
Though, the best way to counter flyers is to probably get within 18" of the opponents board edge and laugh as they over fly you. Especially the non imperial ones that can't go to hover mode. (By Counter I mean 'render useless', as it'll take them two turns to turn around.

Doesn't work. As Lukus83 says, they can enter at an angle. There are almost no safe places against flyers.

The issue at the moment is there are three groups of armies:

Armies that can field more than 3 flyers per FOC
-Necrons; Imperial Guard
Armies that can field up to 3 flyers per FOC
-Space Marines; Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Orks, Dark Eldar
Armies that cannot field flyers
-Black Templars; Space Wolves, Dark Angels; CSM; Daemons; Sisters; Tau, Eldar, Tyranids

What makes it worse is the fact that Necron and Guard flyers have the best anti-flyer weapons loadout available to them (and guard have the only dedicated AA unit as well) and are cheaper/more cost-effective than most other flyer options.

You don't need flyers to compete, but you do need a solution to flyers. This is why Orks (lootas) and GK (psyflemen) are still top tier forces along with Necrons and IG.

The problem is that for most other armies the anti-flyer options are expensive, inefficient (or both) and by the time you have enough to feel confident when facing the 4-5 scythe or 3-4 vendetta armies that are likely to be the most popular for the forseeable future you will have too little left on the ground to strongly compete.

FWIW I think that any army that relies too heavily on flyers/AA (ie spends more than half their points on them) will lose and as the meta evolves new units, new codices and new FAQs will reduce the proportion of flyer/AA in competitive armies. However this class of vehicle is here for good and everyone will need to come up with some kind of answer.

The default for any army that can take flyers will be to take two at least. These will have one primary use which will be to drop troops onto objectives late game.

You need AA in your army to be competative now, gone are the days of rolling up your tank onto an objective late game.

Now the cheese has duplicated (fly flyer off the board turn 4 and take objective turn 5) and the tactic to take objectives now is even easier than it was.

Everyone will adopt to this tactic as it wins games, especially if you aren't prepared and cant counter it.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:You don't need flyers to compete, but you do need a solution to flyers...

The problem is that for most other armies the anti-flyer options are expensive, inefficient (or both) and by the time you have enough to feel confident when facing the 4-5 scythe or 3-4 vendetta armies that are likely to be the most popular for the forseeable future you will have too little left on the ground to strongly compete.

FWIW I think that any army that relies too heavily on flyers/AA (ie spends more than half their points on them) will lose and as the meta evolves new units, new codices and new FAQs will reduce the proportion of flyer/AA in competitive armies. However this class of vehicle is here for good and everyone will need to come up with some kind of answer.

Calvin, I agree with most of your conclusions, and your analysis is accurate and comprehensive.

Soon, I intend on running a 7 night scythe 2000 point list, and a 9 scythe 2500 point list. With newcrons, every basic Warrior has an anti-vehicle, anti-infantry weapon. For example, in my 2000 point list, I field 60 warriors and 20 death marks. So, even with 7 scythes, that's 80 infantry on the ground. That is plenty on the ground to be competitive.

You are right, in one respect, that if someone was to min/max, yes, then they would not have enough on the ground to fight. Also if they added death scythes [I am not a big fan], then you are definitely right. 8 scythes and 3 doom scythes would be too much...as you would not have enough supporting infantry.

One thing is certain: flyers are part of the game, "here for good," and yes, every army, like most modern armies, will have to be able to address that threat, with counter-flyers being the best choice and AAA a necessity.

Thanks lordybarbo (and congrats on a stunning-looking army there )

The only thing I would wonder about running 7 scythes is this scenario:

You run into a necron opponent who only runs 4-5 scythes (or an IG player with a similar number of vendettas). They have spent less points than you in the air and will therefore have more forces on the ground. However, if they focus their flyers in an anti-air role they neutralise your flyers as follows:

You go first. Top of turn 2 some/all of your flyers come on to the board. Bottom of turn 2 their flyers DS behind you and shoot at your rear armour. You can't turn to return fire, if you jink you can only take snap shots. If you fly off the board, they follow. You will always have them DSing into your rear arc on their turn.

If they go first, they fly on and then straight off again to go into ongoing reserves and you face the same problem.

Obviously you can do this to them too, but then your larger number of fliers are playing cat-and-mouse with a smaller (and more importantly cheaper) number of enemy fliers, whilst their numerical advantage on the ground is grinding out a victory.

This is why I believe 4-5 is the optimum number of flyers in the game, as that many should be able to nullify (they don't need to destroy) 7-9 flyers (which is about the most that points limits will usually allow). Having more troops on the ground can assist by spreading out to have a large footprint (IG are especially good at this) to prevent enemy flyers from DSing in behind you, forcing them to come at you head-on and face thicker armour and return fire.

Obviously as the meta evolves to include more ground-based AA these numbers will change but that is where I see the 'sweet spot' at present.

Thanks for the compliment; I worked really hard on it. I had a jump on it though, because I did have the spiders, soldiers and other stuff from ten years ago.

You raise some interesting points. I will have to see how it plays out, but I appreciate you making me aware of the potential for disaster.

I have had pretty good luck with the warriors, and their placement after disembarking, so we will see.

What do you think about flyer borne death marks? I have not used them yet, but will this saturday.

Can a flyer DS after going to ongoing reserves? If an aircraft moves off the field, they have to zoom back on, right?

I'm 11 all around, but no fighter interceptor wants a bogey on its 6!

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
If they go first, they fly on and then straight off again to go into ongoing reserves and you face the same problem.

You can't go into reserves on the same turn you arrive from reserves.

Green is Best! wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
If they go first, they fly on and then straight off again to go into ongoing reserves and you face the same problem.

You can't go into reserves on the same turn you arrive from reserves.

My sources from GW [though not definitive] say that it is legal. The "resulting [zoom] move" in the movement phase cannot be used to move off the board.

A zooming flyer can use the flat out move, as the model using the flat out move is still considered to be 'zooming,' to voluntarily leave the board in the shooting phase. This difference is important, as a zooming flyer can move off the field; a hovering [fast skimmer-like] flyer cannot. I am sorry, I miswrote; to go 'flat out' is not a move. It is simply a "zooming flyer that goes flat out..."

So, a flyer will be vulnerable to AAA at the end of the movement phase, as long as the AAA has skyfire and interceptor rules. Hence why it cannot avoid flak fire and zoom off the field in the movement phase. Thus being fair and rewarding players who have purchased AAA.

If your opponent did not, shame on him.

My research, both here, with other players, store managers, GW employees, etc., has shown that a zooming flyer can move flat out off the field. You sacrifice shooting with the airplane in order to achieve that.

Flyers are good, but definitely not necessary to compete. We had one guy who brought a flyer to a tournament over the weekend, it was shot down with snap fire 3 games in a row on the first shot that was fired at it.

No i dont think you need them buy boy are they annoying. My cousin loves his doomsythe with deathray......thing kills sooooooooooooooooooooo much every time he fired last game......3 times in total. killed like a squad and a half on its own plus it made a squad of broadsides run before i could blow up his monolith on the turn i could finally see it....

Taubeast wrote:Flyers are good, but definitely not necessary to compete. We had one guy who brought a flyer to a tournament over the weekend, it was shot down with snap fire 3 games in a row on the first shot that was fired at it.

So one guy brought one flyer and was really unlucky?
That's a definitive statement as to why flyers aren't necessary to compete

Chimera_Calvin wrote:

Taubeast wrote:Flyers are good, but definitely not necessary to compete. We had one guy who brought a flyer to a tournament over the weekend, it was shot down with snap fire 3 games in a row on the first shot that was fired at it.

So one guy brought one flyer and was really unlucky?
That's a definitive statement as to why flyers aren't necessary to compete

Lol, he wasn't the only one to bring flyers. we also had a Guard player with 5 Valkyries, a Necron player with a few, a tyranid player with 2 flying monstrosities, and then the guy I mentioned, with his storm raven.

And the guy who won the tourney didn't have any flyers, he used a Deathwing list. Overall, Flyers performed well, but they aren't necessary to win. What I said earlier was just to emphasize that they aren't some super uber unit that is an auto win.

lordybarbo wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
If they go first, they fly on and then straight off again to go into ongoing reserves and you face the same problem.

You can't go into reserves on the same turn you arrive from reserves.

My sources from GW [though not definitive] say that it is legal. The "resulting [zoom] move" in the movement phase cannot be used to move off the board.

A zooming flyer can use the flat out move, as the model using the flat out move is still considered to be 'zooming,' to voluntarily leave the board in the shooting phase. This difference is important, as a zooming flyer can move off the field; a hovering [fast skimmer-like] flyer cannot. I am sorry, I miswrote; to go 'flat out' is not a move. It is simply a "zooming flyer that goes flat out..."

So, a flyer will be vulnerable to AAA at the end of the movement phase, as long as the AAA has skyfire and interceptor rules. Hence why it cannot avoid flak fire and zoom off the field in the movement phase. Thus being fair and rewarding players who have purchased AAA.

If your opponent did not, shame on him.

My research, both here, with other players, store managers, GW employees, etc., has shown that a zooming flyer can move flat out off the field. You sacrifice shooting with the airplane in order to achieve that.

That is kind of circular. It may only go off the table while it is zooming, If it is zooming, then it says it may not go off the table in the same turn. If flat out is part of zooming then one part or the other applies to it. It cant both be it and not be it at the same time.

Leth wrote:

lordybarbo wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
If they go first, they fly on and then straight off again to go into ongoing reserves and you face the same problem.

You can't go into reserves on the same turn you arrive from reserves.

My sources from GW [though not definitive] say that it is legal. The "resulting [zoom] move" in the movement phase cannot be used to move off the board.

A zooming flyer can use the flat out move, as the model using the flat out move is still considered to be 'zooming,' to voluntarily leave the board in the shooting phase. This difference is important, as a zooming flyer can move off the field; a hovering [fast skimmer-like] flyer cannot. I am sorry, I miswrote; to go 'flat out' is not a move. It is simply a "zooming flyer that goes flat out..."

So, a flyer will be vulnerable to AAA at the end of the movement phase, as long as the AAA has skyfire and interceptor rules. Hence why it cannot avoid flak fire and zoom off the field in the movement phase. Thus being fair and rewarding players who have purchased AAA.

If your opponent did not, shame on him.

My research, both here, with other players, store managers, GW employees, etc., has shown that a zooming flyer can move flat out off the field. You sacrifice shooting with the airplane in order to achieve that.

That is kind of circular. It may only go off the table while it is zooming, If it is zooming, then it says it may not go off the table in the same turn. If flat out is part of zooming then one part or the other applies to it. It cant both be it and not be it at the same time.

Not sure how its circular; the exact rule, from page 80, paragraph 6 in flyer section, lines 4-6, reads, "In a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again." No where does it say that a flyer cannot leave the table the turn that it comes on the field; this says when [the turn] it initially zooms in from reserve, the resulting move cannot take it off the field.

If you could point out for me where in the book it says that you can't leave the field the turn that you come onto it, that would be helpful.

So, again, as I have explained, it reads that the "resulting move" would be the move during the movement phase.

And again, it means that the flyer has to stay on the field, at the end of the movement phase, so that AAA have a chance to shell em.

During the shooting phase, the zooming flyer can go flat out and off the field voluntarily. They are distinctly different things; flat out is something you can elect to do in the shooting phase. I have already submitted this, with the argument, to the FAQ boys. Until there is an official ruling, it should be played this way.

Also, if you can show me where it says going flat out cannot be used to take the flyer off the field, that would be helpful.

Thanks!

If you don't load up on flyers, you better load up on some very reliable anti-flyer measures or the game is not going to be fun for you.


All my CSM games in this edition have pretty much been moving my army and doing my turn 6 minutes, then spending 15 minutes watching the opponent play around wth flyers, nuking my expensive stuff absurdly quick. The quad-gun doesn't do much against AV 12 Vendettas and ravens.

Fliers are pretty fragile, with an AV of 10-12 all around, and even with 6's to hit, you'll do some damage. Imagine you blow the death ray off of a doom scythe or the melta from a Storm Raven. Fliers are good, even great, but an air force list can be easily taken out if they aren't careful about deploying their troops and vehicles in cover.

lordybarbo wrote:Not sure how its circular; the exact rule, from page 80, paragraph 6 in flyer section, lines 4-6, reads, "In a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again." No where does it say that a flyer cannot leave the table the turn that it comes on the field; this says when [the turn] it initially zooms in from reserve, the resulting move cannot take it off the field.

If you could point out for me where in the book it says that you can't leave the field the turn that you come onto it, that would be helpful.

So, again, as I have explained, it reads that the "resulting move" would be the move during the movement phase.

And again, it means that the flyer has to stay on the field, at the end of the movement phase, so that AAA have a chance to shell em.

During the shooting phase, the zooming flyer can go flat out and off the field voluntarily. They are distinctly different things; flat out is something you can elect to do in the shooting phase. I have already submitted this, with the argument, to the FAQ boys. Until there is an official ruling, it should be played this way.

Also, if you can show me where it says going flat out cannot be used to take the flyer off the field, that would be helpful.

Thanks!

Do the flat out rules give fliers permission to move off the board? Otherwise they can't do it. I'm away from books right now, but that would be the one hitch in your plan, if it exists.

Ricter wrote:

lordybarbo wrote:Not sure how its circular; the exact rule, from page 80, paragraph 6 in flyer section, lines 4-6, reads, "In a turn in which a flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again." No where does it say that a flyer cannot leave the table the turn that it comes on the field; this says when [the turn] it initially zooms in from reserve, the resulting move cannot take it off the field.

If you could point out for me where in the book it says that you can't leave the field the turn that you come onto it, that would be helpful.

So, again, as I have explained, it reads that the "resulting move" would be the move during the movement phase.

And again, it means that the flyer has to stay on the field, at the end of the movement phase, so that AAA have a chance to shell em.

During the shooting phase, the zooming flyer can go flat out and off the field voluntarily. They are distinctly different things; flat out is something you can elect to do in the shooting phase. I have already submitted this, with the argument, to the FAQ boys. Until there is an official ruling, it should be played this way.

Also, if you can show me where it says going flat out cannot be used to take the flyer off the field, that would be helpful.

Thanks!

Do the flat out rules give fliers permission to move off the board? Otherwise they can't do it. I'm away from books right now, but that would be the one hitch in your plan, if it exists.

Thanks for bringing that up. Nope, the rules simply say that a zooming flyer can go flat-out 12-24 inches in a straight line, and under the Ongoing Reserves rule, it says a zooming flyer (flyer making a zoom move as opposed to one making a hover move) can voluntarily leave the table.

And since the flyer does not stop zooming to go flat-out [ie it still counts as zooming not hovering], it can do so according to the Ongoing Reserves rule.

lordybarbo wrote:

Thanks for bringing that up. Nope, the rules simply say that a zooming flyer can go flat-out 12-24 inches in a straight line, and under the Ongoing Reserves rule, it says a zooming flyer (flyer making a zoom move as opposed to one making a hover move) can voluntarily leave the table.

And since the flyer does not stop zooming to go flat-out [ie it still counts as zooming not hovering], it can do so according to the Ongoing Reserves rule.

Unfortunately, this isn't quite right. Your paraphrase has led to a misstatement of the rules.

While the flyer may or may not still count as a "zooming flier" - the rule says "It is quite likely that a Flier making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flier is said to have left combat airspace..."

What is a "Zoom move"? Let's look a page earlier: "Flyers can usually only make a special type of move called Zoom.. . If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36""

A zoom move is 18 to 36 inch move. Later it says "A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"" However this is not the "Zoom move" as defined earlier in the rules.

In short, a Zooming Flyer can go flat out, but it can only leave the board doing its "Zoom move" - not during "any movement while Zooming."

Allied Guard, which pretty much anyone can take, can be a one stop shop to anti-flyers. You've got the regular Hydra, the Hydra Weapon Platform (superior to the Hyrda flakk Tank IMHO), HW Squads with Orders, the Vendetta, a host of other flyers (that are worse then the undercosted plane mentioned earlier), and I'm sure I'm missing a few things. All armies, with the possible exception of Tyranids can field flyers when you include the approved additional sources, Forge World. Truthfully I feel two or three squads that have skyfire are more then enough or double that in Twin Linked heavy weapons.

Killjoy00 wrote:

lordybarbo wrote:

Thanks for bringing that up. Nope, the rules simply say that a zooming flyer can go flat-out 12-24 inches in a straight line, and under the Ongoing Reserves rule, it says a zooming flyer (flyer making a zoom move as opposed to one making a hover move) can voluntarily leave the table.

And since the flyer does not stop zooming to go flat-out [ie it still counts as zooming not hovering], it can do so according to the Ongoing Reserves rule.

Unfortunately, this isn't quite right. Your paraphrase has led to a misstatement of the rules.

While the flyer may or may not still count as a "zooming flier" - the rule says "It is quite likely that a Flier making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flier is said to have left combat airspace..."

What is a "Zoom move"? Let's look a page earlier: "Flyers can usually only make a special type of move called Zoom.. . If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of 36""

A zoom move is 18 to 36 inch move. Later it says "A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"" However this is not the "Zoom move" as defined earlier in the rules.

In short, a Zooming Flyer can go flat out, but it can only leave the board doing its "Zoom move" - not during "any movement while Zooming."

I do not agree with this interpretation. I have spoken with tournament judges, GW rules guys, store managers, other players, other forums, and we have all came up with the same conclusion. The root of the question is not necessarily a zoom or flat out question; it is can the flyer voluntarily leave the field and when. I know none of these listed sources are definitive or official or even right all the time, but I stand by my interpretation, backed with the analysis of others.

That is why it needs a FAQ. There should be a release of FAQs when they release the boxed set coming up, and the chaos codex (as rumored.) Until then, we will have to agree to disagree.

That section is even titled, "Zoom and Flat Out." Based on the rules at hand, I believe that a "zooming flyer that goes flat out" is continuing to make "a zoom move" by sacrificing its shooting, and can voluntarily leave the field, as there is nothing in the rules that states they cannot.

Unfortunately, the term "Zoom move" is defined and it doesn't apply to Flat Out.

Killjoy00 wrote:Unfortunately, the term "Zoom move" is defined and it doesn't apply to Flat Out.

That is your opinion.

I disagree, as the terms "zoom," "zooms," "zoom move," and "zooming flyer" in any and all cases are almost interchangeable {depending on subject/predicate agreement}; I would point out the specific examples, but after a ten hour day, I would like to relax, have a beer, and paint my seventh flyer.

I think I have already articulated enough, and those in which ever camp have their minds made up.

If we played, we would just have to use the "hand of fate," or if we were at a tournament, we would let them settle it before our match.

However you slice it, airpower is here, and everyone from here on out will have to deal with it.

The FAQs will clean it up some, I am certain.

Hey guys.

Can someone point me to where it says fliers can't leave combat airspace on the turn they arrive because I can't find it for the life of me.

Cheers.

bobman wrote:Hey guys.

Can someone point me to where it says fliers can't leave combat airspace on the turn they arrive because I can't find it for the life of me.

Cheers.

It doesn't.

They can.

Just not with the "resulting move" in the movement phase of the turn they arrive from reserve.

lordybarbo wrote:I do not agree with this interpretation. I have spoken with tournament judges, GW rules guys, store managers, other players, other forums, and we have all came up with the same conclusion. The root of the question is not necessarily a zoom or flat out question; it is can the flyer voluntarily leave the field and when. I know none of these listed sources are definitive or official or even right all the time, but I stand by my interpretation, backed with the analysis of others.

While I'm not sure without looking myself which interpretation I'd agree with, one thing I'd encourage you to realize is that rules are not a popularity contest. There have been many times in the past where groups were playing rules wrong, and it just took one individual to pick up on the mistake.

In the end, it only matters what the TOs say anyways.

bobman wrote:Hey guys.

Can someone point me to where it says fliers can't leave combat airspace on the turn they arrive because I can't find it for the life of me.

Cheers.

pg 6 - models cannot voluntarily move off the board.
general prohibition against fliers moving off the board

pg 81 - a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. If that happens, the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace.
specific allowance for Flyer making a Zoom move to leave the board

pg 80 - In a turn in which the Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again.
even more specific provision prohibiting the Zoom move from allowing the flier to leave the turn it arrives


So - a Flyer can leave the board only under two conditions - a) it is making what is defined as a "Zoom move" and it is not a turn that it arrived from reserved.

It's looking more and more the answer is yes, but not for all armies. A Pure Necron list probably needs flyers and lots of them as their psychic defense is limited to non existent. Adding 3-4 Necron flyers as allies to Grey Knights is just brutal.

There is zero chance to ignore 3-5 flyers and have any hope of winning. Your best bet is to hope the Doomscythes don't come in for a turn or two and your opponent just plops his deployed units in your face to die. No a more active flyer defense is needed, even if you have all foot troops.