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Yuber wrote:

Fayric wrote:To be able to fly out of harms range with a FP, you assume the enemy has crowded all antitank on one spot at the far end of the table.
As it usually (in my experience) only takes one stray krack missile to explode the FP, I find it hard to accept you just zoom 12" and dance out of the missiles.
Fire Prisms can probably do alot of damage on the enemy, but its one of the most unreliable units in the dex. And god knows BS4 is not nearly enough to "almost always hit" the blast.
Disclaimer: I speak from experience not statistics. Sorry about that.

-I pray that you are talking about 6th ed because in sixth, as long as any AV unit is under the template, it will suffer full strength, unlike in 5th. - The reason why I'm saying it's hard to miss with FP.
-If it's krak missiles, then its probably coming from Long Fangs or Dev squads, easily avoided by smart terrain placement, and Unit relocation using eldrad's powers pre game. I dont know how a "stray" krak missiles explodes a fire prism when it has 3 hull points and a perma 5+ cover save. Do the math. 5 missiles will not reliably kill a Fire prism. Are prisms killable? yes. Are they easy to kill? no.
-Im not saying fire prism's are untouchable, but based on your responses, I come out as marketing FPs to be nigh invincible - which I never claimed.

You said FPs are easy targets esp if they are the only vehicles you are bringing, I said they aren't and offered reasonable and realistic arguments. The points I raised are "facts" I dont know why are you trying so hard to prove them wrong =P

I know, Prisms look great on paper, thats why Im so bitter about it Problems with them are the one shot deal and fragile shell.
By the way, hullpoints are not like wounds for vehicles, its a limit saying it can only take so many (so few!) hits before it is wrecked. If you roll a pen, it still explodes on a 6.
Anyway, I was actually planning on giving my two Prisms a spin tonight, but in my mind, wraithlords and war walkers are almost always a better investment as they are far more resilient and/or more flexible on the field. (and theres the problem, I want my elves to be flexible on te field

Yuber wrote:
There are very few things in the game that can reach units 60" away. Then again ofcourse they wont work with footdar list. But I think footdar list will not fare well in 6th.

Do you play many games that feature 60" lanes of fire?

If so, why are your opponents idiots?

Yuber wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

Yuber wrote:^^ but those are hardly units with 48" effectiveness.

The flyers are rarely a problem for me because, if they fail to kill me the moment they come in the board, ill just move them flatout and hide inside their blind spots.

Land speeders are a joke, they never get the 1st shot on my prisms unless they deep strike it and I dont have interceptor units around.

Jetbikes will wither down from 3 large blasts and excruciatingly amount of fire power any decent eldar army will take.

These things are hardly good for punishing prisms. Bottomline is, if they even want a remote chance of killing my prisms, they will have to work REALLY hard for it.

I'm also going to go out of my way and say that having prisms alone in the army is not a bad idea, you just need to add star engine in them.

Not trying to sound rude here, but what does the rest of your list look like where these fire prisms are godly on the field? And what is the level of your competition?

Your either are playing against people who cant focus fire worth crap, or you are extremely lucky and never scatter, or you are really lucky and pass every jink roll.

Like i said, they aren't a bad unit. They are a great take at a 115 price. But they dont have the staying power they used to. A simple drop pod with a few guys who have melta/ plasma can hurt one pretty bad. They just arent the same holofielded beasts that they were in 5th.

-Its hard to miss a scatter if you are bs 4 and the vehicle targets are very big. Its even harder to scatter if your twinlinking your prisms.
-Its a terrible idea to droppod suicide a 115 point unit, especially when that unit will eat an AP3 large blast from another edge of the board next turn. My level of competitions is good enough to do such a thing.
-Im not saying they are ungodly, but they are the best point for point unit eldar has now, so maybe you can show me a more point-efficient unit that I may seem to have missed.
-Im not arguing that 5+ jink is resilient, What im saying is my prisms rarely or never get shot at. And even if they do, they usually fail to kill it as ill just zoom them of to the other side of the board next turn.

Here's a list I'm running ATM @ 1500pts:

-Eldrad
-Wraith Seer
-9x Wraith Guard + Sprit Seer Warlock (conceal)
-9 Guardian Jetbikes + 3 shuricans
-3 Fire prisms
-1 Nigthwing

Missing scatter with a small blast template isn't that hard, a roll of about 6 or 7can do it. Fire prisms get 1 shot per turn so it just really hurts when you miss. Lets say for a small blast template (the S9 AP2 that you shoot at vehicles will scatter off target on the roll of a 7, Meaning a 3 inch scatter) Math says you scatter 2/3 of every shot. Of those rolls that scatter, 21/36 rolls will roll 7 or higher. So you will miss 39% of those shots. In a 5 turn game only shooting the small blasts, you will only get to inflict pain with your prism for 3 turns. On top of that, you need (against AV12) 3's to glance and 4's to penn. So another 2/6 of your shots wont even do anyhting. So now you are down from 39% to 26%. Not that great when you look at it that way. Now I Know there are TONS of other factors that would go into this (scattering over top of other stuff, shooting the large blast marker, linking your prisms, cover saves, intervening terrain, and more), but this is just a simple show of the statistics behind it.

It is NOT a terrible idea to drop a suicide unit anywhere really. If you have a small troop covering your read objective, drop in a pod and blast the troops apart denying you your rear objective. That is well worth the points even if they get shot off the table.

The reason your prisms rearely get shot at is because you have a FW flier and the gosh darn Wraithseer who can carry a D-gun which is amazingly destructive. The wraithseer is a huge threat. And the flier probably scares people too. So the prisms go less noticed.

Your list is a very fun looking list. I love the units that are in it. I love the use of forgeworld units on a regular basis. But a lot of people dont. There are many Tournament organizers who also dont like the use of them as well. So this list is more for a friendly game then a competative game i assume? But in any kind of competitive setting, all the other team has to do is wipe out your jetbike group and then you have no more troops (as 9 wraithguard are not a troop). It would seem you would lose 5/6 of the games do to having only 1 troop choice. A fragile and low leadership one at that. And your list is also not legal if you have all 9 bikes together as you need 2 troop choices.

Dont get me wrong, I do love the wraithseer :-)


******
And I re-read and saw you said about placing your terrain strategically, so i assume if you are doing that then so is your opponent. This would probably negate or hinder your attempted 60" open fire lanes.

Razgriz22 wrote:

Yuber wrote:2 words: Fire Prisms.

These babies just became crazy thanks to the new template rules. And at 115 points they are extremely undercosted.

-Range 60" Str 9 ap 2 is very good against vehicles unlike before.. Its even better if you manage to catch 2 vehicles with 1 blast.

-The Str 10 ap 1 combined beam can insta kill most vehicles thanks to AP 1 adding 2 to the damage table... that means instant death on a 4+ roll in the damage table....

-Ap3 large blasts are very good in the current meta as people will deviate away from bringing to many vehicles and prefer foot slogging.

-Thanks to jink, they will always have cover saves of 5+ assuming that they get shot at in the 1st place....

Fire prisms used to be near impossible to completely kill with holofields. Now they go down quick. They are very much glass cannons. In hybrid/ mech lists I will run them. When I do run them, I take them bare, 115 pts is cheap.

But most foot lists will be better off with Wraithlords. If you only have 2 vehicles in a foot list, they will be the first thing to go. All anti tank shots will be going for them. So unless there are other vehicles to shoot at, I wouldnt take fire prisms.

On the table everyone knows what my fire prisms can do, and they always go down first, thats 230 points down the drain, sometimes without any damage. So I stopped fielding them, people are much less afraid of a transport by nature because for other armies (like SM) a transport is just to get a unit somewhere. A falcon on the other hand has GREAT firepower compared to the other transports in the game, which is what you need in less mech armies.

Razgriz22 wrote:

STUFF

Missing scatter with a small blast template isn't that hard, a roll of about 6 or 7can do it. Fire prisms get 1 shot per turn so it just really hurts when you miss. Lets say for a small blast template (the S9 AP2 that you shoot at vehicles will scatter off target on the roll of a 7, Meaning a 3 inch scatter) Math says you scatter 2/3 of every shot. Of those rolls that scatter, 21/36 rolls will roll 7 or higher. So you will miss 39% of those shots. In a 5 turn game only shooting the small blasts, you will only get to inflict pain with your prism for 3 turns. On top of that, you need (against AV12) 3's to glance and 4's to penn. So another 2/6 of your shots wont even do anyhting. So now you are down from 39% to 26%. Not that great when you look at it that way. Now I Know there are TONS of other factors that would go into this (scattering over top of other stuff, shooting the large blast marker, linking your prisms, cover saves, intervening terrain, and more), but this is just a simple show of the statistics behind it.

It is NOT a terrible idea to drop a suicide unit anywhere really. If you have a small troop covering your read objective, drop in a pod and blast the troops apart denying you your rear objective. That is well worth the points even if they get shot off the table.

The reason your prisms rearely get shot at is because you have a FW flier and the gosh darn Wraithseer who can carry a D-gun which is amazingly destructive. The wraithseer is a huge threat. And the flier probably scares people too. So the prisms go less noticed.

Your list is a very fun looking list. I love the units that are in it. I love the use of forgeworld units on a regular basis. But a lot of people dont. There are many Tournament organizers who also dont like the use of them as well. So this list is more for a friendly game then a competative game i assume? But in any kind of competitive setting, all the other team has to do is wipe out your jetbike group and then you have no more troops (as 9 wraithguard are not a troop). It would seem you would lose 5/6 of the games do to having only 1 troop choice. A fragile and low leadership one at that. And your list is also not legal if you have all 9 bikes together as you need 2 troop choices.

Dont get me wrong, I do love the wraithseer :-)


******
And I re-read and saw you said about placing your terrain strategically, so i assume if you are doing that then so is your opponent. This would probably negate or hinder your attempted 60" open fire lanes.

From codex eldar....A unit of 10 wraitguard may be lead by a spiritseer and be counted as troops. It requires the 10+ spiritseer.

I came up with a 7" scatter missing due to the fact that the blast template is 3". 7" scatter - 4BS = a total of 3" scatter. Just enough to miss.

I was merely claiming that Fire prisms aren't as good as you seemed to make them out to be in standard competitive play. This means standard 40k. Not Imperial armour units. I would love to go off on a huge rant on how I would absolutely love and enjoy if In the main 6th edition rulebook GW stated that IA units are a go and quite legal (Just to clear it up with EVERYONE) so we could all use them and have zero hassle. But until that happens, I dont think everyone out there will like it. Which sucks. But thats not what this topic is about.

What im getting at is that fire prisms are good yes. Everyone knows that. They will focus fire and destroy them as fast as possible for what they can do. In standard games, They are a big threat and get shot first. In non-standard games (games where FW units are ok to use) then they get targeted less due to the fact that there are units on the board that aren't in the normal rulebook. The wraithseer carries a D-Cannon. That gun is stupid scary. Therefor all shots I would assume go toward that first. Leaving your fire prisms to do as they please. In which case I can see how they would be doing more damage and last longer then in most normal games.

This is all I was trying to say. Hope it clears things up.

And I would love to see pictures of that army list you posted. It just sounds like a joy to look at on the board.

^^

-I may have misread that part needing to have 10 wraithguard, if its true I may have to adjust my list then.

-Im pretty sure that IA units are part of the "standard game play", though I cannot back this one up because I forgot where I read this. All I can say is that if a "competitive environment" didnt allow IA units, then maybe that environment isnt competitive afterall....that's just my opinion.

-Depends really on the vehicle, if the vehicle is big enough, say a land raider, even deviating 4 inches away would still register a hit.

-I just cant get my head over the fact that everyone is saying how easy it is to kill fire prisms, because they aren't.

Yuber wrote:^^

-I may have misread that part needing to have 10 wraithguard, if its true I may have to adjust my list then.

-Im pretty sure that IA units are part of the "standard game play", though I cannot back this one up because I forgot where I read this. All I can say is that if a "competitive environment" didnt allow IA units, then maybe that environment isnt competitive afterall....that's just my opinion.

-Depends really on the vehicle, if the vehicle is big enough, say a land raider, even deviating 4 inches away would still register a hit.

-I just cant get my head over the fact that everyone is saying how easy it is to kill fire prisms, because they aren't.

Yea I wish any size unit of wraithguard could be considered troops just by taking a wraithseer. IA units "have the stamp of approval" of GW as listed in the IA books. But that somehow isn't enough for most people. At that really pisses me off. I agree. I think something labeled as competitive should definitely be including IA units. Sadly, IA books are very rare at any wargaming store, so they use the excuse that not everyone has easy access to it. Which makes sense i suppose, as no one ca really study up on any units by paroosing through the codex section of your local store. but at the same time, who actually does memorize all the codex's? So its arguable from both sides.

I am quite sure I would be in the same boat as you, stating my fire prisms go down much less often, if I had the ability to field Eldar IA units. They just aren't the prime target when a D-cannon is on the board. As that thing devastates just about anything. One shot from that can make a group of terminators disappear. Ouch.

So to end this, lets all agree to disagree on the topic. :-)