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More Dakka wrote:Question: how does Lumbering Behemoth work in this edition?

MrMoustaffa wrote:My club has been confused about this ruling as well, as we have several guard players, and none of us have found a definite yes or no on the matter. We treated it as a russ that stayed still could fire at normal BS even after firing a battlecannon, but I don't believe this is right.

It works exactly the same 5th. Except you get to also Snap Shot additional weapons.
Lumbering Behemoth: "... can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapons it can usually fire..."
Combat Speed: "... may fire a single weapon using its full BS."
You essentially get to fire the turret for free and then fire one additional weapon using its full BS and the rest using Snap Shots. Seems pretty clear to me *shrugs*

Kirika wrote:All the arty got worse overall because they are less accurate having to fire barrage and scattering the full 2d6 if not a hit even if it has LOS and the new vehicle damage table has only a 1/6 chance of explosion with none of the arty being ap2 or ap1. I found my Manticores missing an aweful lot if there wasn't a parking lot or massed troops when always firing barrage.

What world are you living in? Firstly, please give the page number in the BRB that states Barrage weapons cannot fire directly. Secondly, please explain how a Basilisk S9 or Manticore S10 using full strength for the whole of the Large Blast template and being resolved against side armour is crap at killing tanks?

Kirika wrote:I'm finding that IG has issues putting out enough anti vehicle firepower turn 1 as you have to wait for your vendettas turn 2 or later.

What?! Imperial Guard can spam heavy weapons like no other army can. You're either expecting to achieve the impossible (i.e. take out an entire Mech list turn one) or you have tunnel vision and haven't given any real thought to other units in the codex outside your current list(s).

Peace Out!
Jonny!

Kirika wrote:

Basilisk - In 5th this was outclassed by the Manticore but still not all that good in 6th with a single shot that can just miss scattering the full 2d6 with barrage. You can character snipe in 6th and AP3 kills marines good. Still not all that great vs vehicles especially with the new damage table but Basilisk was always about killing Marines which it does better if it hits since cover is now worse.

Min. range means you'll be lucky to get one shot off with it before most of the enemy army is too close...

Look carefully at barrage rules. Minimum range doesn't exist any more.

Ailaros wrote:Look carefully at barrage rules. Minimum range doesn't exist any more.

Oooh. Good point!

Peace!

Ailaros wrote:Look carefully at barrage rules. Minimum range doesn't exist any more.

I think this is debatable. I believe it means you can only fire indirectly within the min range, which is a big change. Going through various bits of the rulebook it doesn't make it clear what to do with the min. range at all.

Do you read it as it has no effect?

Ugg, is this going to be a repeat of guess weapons? Why is it that the basilisk is always at the forefront of confusion about guard units?

It's spelled out in plain english on page 34:

Barrage weapons can fire indirectly. This means that they can fire at a target that they do not have line of sight to and/or a target that is within the weapon's minimum range (if it has one).

If that isn't clear enough for you, just take out the unecessary extra clauses and you get "Barrage weapons can fire... at a target that that is within the weapon's minimum range".

Mimum range got written out of the game by the 6th ed rulebook, just like guessing ranges got canned by 4th ed. They're gone. Out. Vanished.

Whenever anybody gives you grief, just point to page 34.

It's not completely gone. I took inside minimum range to be a form of indirect firing. This would prevent the weapon from using the firer's BS. Small price to pay, still.

Yes, but ALL barrage weapons lost their ability to use BS to reduce scatter, not just those firing within minimum ranges.

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but ALL barrage weapons lost their ability to use BS to reduce scatter, not just those firing within minimum ranges.

Nope.
If you look at the Barrage rules the first bullet point covers indirect fire. If you're not firing indirectly you ignore the first bullet point.
Direct firing reduces by BS as usual (just to back that up further the rules says "when firing indirectly, the Ballistic Skill of the firer is not subtracted..." so direct fire reduces as normal).

Right, that's what I meant. When you're firing a barrage weapon in barrage mode, then the loss of BS affects them all equally.

Ailaros wrote:Right, that's what I meant. When you're firing a barrage weapon in barrage mode, then the loss of BS affects them all equally

Ah, mis-read your comment. I do apologise.

I am going to run a Demolisher with three Space Wolf Vindicators with a rune priest throwing out storm caller should I pick up a 2nd demolisher?

Rubberjonny
Show me the page that it says you can fire directly. Someone at a tournament said you can't fire directly because it doesn't say you can and the TO ruled in his favor. If this is how it is ruled arty got a nerf for being less accurate. In 5th it specifically said that ordinance barrage can fire direct. 6th no such statement.

Your ranged firepower turn 1 just seems to do less damage in 6th then in 5th. No more getting any wrecked on a 5 damage results so the vehicle kills your first turn shooting does is much less without 3 vendettas around shooting ap2 las cannons. You scoring half as many kills and no stunned/shaken from glances anymore it just seems less effective then in 5th. You end up taking some hull points off and getting shot right back.

valace2
I would recommend against a second demolisher. Even with squadrons are better in 6th then they were in 5th you still need scoring units to win 5/6 missions. How many points are you playing and whats your full list look like? Does it include Quad Gun, allied vendetta, TL auto cannon dreads for dealing with fliers?

Check out the barrage rules. They state that as long as your target is outside your minimum range and in Line of Sight, you can direct fire Barrage weapons at it. You only lose the BS subtraction when inside minimum range or out of Line of Sight.

As for 1st turn damage, the only place I've seen it fall off has been in the increased frequency of Night Fight. Beyond that, the cannons roar, the lascannons hiss, and stuff explodes and dies.

And I'd recommend skipping the allied Demolisher entirely in favor of an LRBT or a pair of Hydras or a Vendetta. Wolves only organic answer to flyers is Prescience and volume of fire so passing up the chance to add Skyfire seems silly.

Kirika wrote:Show me the page that it says you can fire directly. Someone at a tournament said you can't fire directly because it doesn't say you can and the TO ruled in his favor.

This is one of many reasons I don't go to tournaments. Tournaments already break the rules, but having idiot TOs would be too much for me to handle.

Pg. 34. under barrage:

All barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast & Large Blast weapons...

... Barrage weapons can fire indirectly.

1.) barrage weapons CAN fire indirectly. They are not REQUIRED to fire indirectly.

2.) when not using rules for barrage (say, while firing directly, for example), they use the rules for blast and large blast weapons, as normal.

Kirika wrote:Your ranged firepower turn 1 just seems to do less damage in 6th then in 5th.

Well, you just need to retool it. Less single large blasts and more multi-shot fire.

Barrage weapons dont really have two modes of direct/indirect anymore. In 5th, direct fire was treated like regular ordinance/blast, and barrage was its own thing.

In 6th, a barrage weapon is always barrage. It always gets pinning,and it always pulls wounds from the centre of the blast, and it always uses multiple barrage scatter. -indirect- fire only means you cant see the target, or are within minimum range, then you cannot reduce your BS.

Think of it more like accurate barrage, and indirect barrage, rather than direct/indirect (that basilisk is still lobbing shells from above, its not levelling it's gun and shooting like a tank no more).

McGibs wrote:Barrage weapons dont really have two modes of direct/indirect anymore. In 5th, direct fire was treated like regular ordinance/blast, and barrage was its own thing.

In 6th, a barrage weapon is always barrage. It always gets pinning,and it always pulls wounds from the centre of the blast, and it always uses multiple barrage scatter. -indirect- fire only means you cant see the target, or are within minimum range, then you cannot reduce your BS.

Think of it more like accurate barrage, and indirect barrage, rather than direct/indirect (that basilisk is still lobbing shells from above, its not levelling it's gun and shooting like a tank no more).

But this isn't true.

When a barrage weapon is choosing not to fire indirectly, it doesnt' use the rules for barrage. It uses the regular rules for blast weapons. When you fire your basilisk directly, you're using the exact same rules set as if you were firing a missile launcher.

Yes, it's still technically called a barrage weapon, even while firing directly, but there are still two distinct class of rules, depending on how you choose to fire the weapon.

If FW is an option here, keep in mind the Rapier:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Guard/Death-Korps-of-Krieg/GRAIA-PATTERN-RAPIER-LASER-DESTROYER.html

40pts for a T7 W2 model with a gun that's identical to a lascannon but slighty shorter ranged but is Twin Linked and gets 2d6-pick-highest for Armor pen, and you can take 3 per HS slot.

For direct fire AT work, there isn't a much better choice, though it's not doing a whole lot other than AT work.

Ailaros, do you have a page number where it says that barrage weapons can fire directly? My understanding is exactly what McGibs stated.

I normally lurk on here, but I'm done with sitting back when I see completely ridiculous interpretations of the rules.

Ailaros, I first noted your really poor advice when you said blob guard is dead. It's frankly the best form of guard around now for many many reasons. You have a whole thread about it and I weep for people trusting you.

Now in HERE, you're giving really really poor advice again regarding the rules.

According to the rulebook
1. Barrage uses the same exact rules for Blasts and follows those rules, WITH THE FOLLOWING EXCEPTIONS
-Barrage CAN fire indirectly, meaning it can fire at things without line of sight, AND WITHIN ITS MINIMUM RANGE.

That is an exception to the rule of using blast firing mechanic. It did not "do away with minimum range". Minimum range is there and you got a buff because now you can shoot inside of it at the exception that it always scatters a full 2d6.

2. THERE IS EVEN A DIAGRAM at the bottom titled "BARRAGE AND PINNING". In it, the description says soemthing like 'the first shots lands a Hit AND DOES NOT SCATTER'..... the unit then has to check for pinning.

Point. Match. Game.

The rulebook specifically has a diagram showing a barrage NOT scattering 2d6 while simultaneously using the pinning rules associated with barrage.

Barrage is not a "type of shot" to pick from. Your gun is a barrage that shoots EXACTLY like a blast with the exception allowed for units that shoot barrage and have minimum ranges or no LoS to be allowed to shoot at them IF they scatter the full 2d6.

Therein the manticore is still extremely viable, and even got a buff, because not only can you now fire ordnance and barrage while moving, but now you can even shoot inside its own minimum range, though with increased risk to any nearby units of your own.

Case closed.

And I'm sorry for caps and being rude, but stay out of the IG threads if you cannot contribute properly.

Foot guard rules now, and manticore is more rockin' than ever.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also seems people have forgotten what "always scatters" means.
On the scatter dice, on Hit!, there is an arrow. That is the direction the scatter is resolved.
There is an exception in the BRB that says that a barrage firing indirectly cannot reduce by the BS (it then uses a semi-colon, which is English for "to explain"), Unless the scatter dice rolls a hit, it always scatters a full 2d6.
Full scatter refers to not being able subtract BS.
So, when you roll a hit, you can subtract BS from the direction the scatter arrow points, or have people forgotten how the dice work?

Biophysical wrote:Ailaros, do you have a page number where it says that barrage weapons can fire directly? My understanding is exactly what McGibs stated.

As I said...

Ailaros wrote:Pg. 34. under barrage:

All barrage weapons use blast markers and consequently use the rules for Blast & Large Blast weapons...

... Barrage weapons can fire indirectly.

1.) barrage weapons CAN fire indirectly. They are not REQUIRED to fire indirectly.

2.) when not using rules for barrage (say, while firing directly, for example), they use the rules for blast and large blast weapons, as normal.

anyways...

scrambles wrote:And I'm sorry for caps and being rude, but stay out of the IG threads if you cannot contribute properly.

It's not the rudeness, per se, that I'm having a problem with, it's the nonsensicalness. You're just repeating what I said, but then throwing in opposite conclusions and then being rude about it.

We agree that barrage use the regular rules for blast weapons. Then, if you want, you are allowed, but not required (hence the word "can") to fire it indirectly. If you choose to fire the weapon indirectly, then you have to use the rules stated below instead of the ones in the blast section (which is what they use normally).

There are several special rules for barrage weapons that you're choosing to use the indirect fire rules set for. One of them is that it may pick a target that is both out of LOS and within its minimum range. As such, LOS and minimum range restrictions do not apply when firing a barrage weapon indirectly.

I really don't understand why you feel the need to be both personally insulting, and vague about your interpretation at the same time. I furthermore can't help you if you're not taking the rules at face value. I don't see why the choices you make should determine if I continue to be of service to other guard players on this forum.

The barrage rules on page 34 are pretty cut and dry. They use the rules for each of the bullet points. There's nothing there about direct fire using standard blast rules. They are ALWAYS barrage weapons, and use all of those bullet pointed rules, as stated in the "All barage weapons... with the following exceptions".

-They are indirect if target is out of LoS or within min range. That's it. All this does it make it not reduce BS.

-They always wound from the centre of the blast (regardless of indirectness. this is a new bullet point)

-They always pin.

-They always follow the rules for multiple barrages.

They cannot, ever, fire "directly" like they could in 5thed. They always barrage. The only difference being the accuracy. The only thing indirect fire effects is the accuracy, not any of the other barrage rules.
The rules for regular blast templates still wound closest to the firing unit, and multiple blasts are worked out differently. You cannot choose to make barrage weapons act like this.

I think we're trying to agree here.

Yes, barrage weapons are always classified as barrage, every time they fire. All barrage weapons have certain characteristics (pinning, etc.), every time they fire.

However, some times barrage weapons use only the rules for blasts, and the rules for barrage, and sometimes they use the rules for blasts, the rules for barrage, and the rules for indirect fire.

As you say, there are certain conditions required for the indirect fire rule to be used. For the sake of linguistic simplicity, I've been using the phrase "direct fire" in reference to barrage weapons that ignore the indirect fire provision of the barrage rules.

Of course, if you're not firing indirectly, then you don't use that part of the barrage rules set. If you do, then you have certain other rules, like minimum range not mattering.

Interestingly, I guess what this means is that a basilisk only has a blind spot when NOT firing indirectly? Or is that something in the codex?

I'm saying the same thing as you? Hardly.

Let's go over it again:

Ailaros wrote:Yes, but ALL barrage weapons lost their ability to use BS to reduce scatter, not just those firing within minimum ranges.

Nope, barrage weapons fire directly just LIKE blasts, using barrage rules such as pinning and no cover saves allowed, with the EXCEPTION that they can fire indirectly and scatter and lose their BS reduction.

Ailaros wrote:Right, that's what I meant. When you're firing a barrage weapon in barrage mode, then the loss of BS affects them all equally.

When you're firing a barrage weapon indirectly[i], then the loss of BS affects them all equally.
fixed

Ailaros wrote:
But this isn't true.

[b]When a barrage weapon is choosing not to fire indirectly, it doesnt' use the rules for barrage. It uses the regular rules for blast weapons. When you fire your basilisk directly, you're using the exact same rules set as if you were firing a missile launcher.

Yes, it's still technically called a barrage weapon, even while firing directly, but there are still two distinct class of rules, depending on how you choose to fire the weapon.

Nope, wrong again. When it chooses to fire directly, it still uses the rules for barrage, that being pinning and no cover saves allowed, and barrage type scatter (flipping the plates).

Ailaros wrote:Look carefully at barrage rules. Minimum range doesn't exist any more.

Nope, minimum range exists definitely. It's just that NOW when you choose to fire within that minimum range, you use the indirect firing method of scatter.

Wait a minute, I think minimum range HAS been done away with alltogether.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the one and only time the phrase "minimum range" is used in the entire rulebook is in the barrage rules where it says to ignore minimum range requirements.

It's a rule that was killed by omission. Put another way, if I have a weapon that says it has a minimum range, show me where in the rulebook it says that that unit can't fire at something right in front of it?

Ailaros wrote:Wait a minute, I think minimum range HAS been done away with alltogether.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the one and only time the phrase "minimum range" is used in the entire rulebook is in the barrage rules where it says to ignore minimum range requirements.

It's a rule that was killed by omission. Put another way, if I have a weapon that says it has a minimum range, show me where in the rulebook it says that that unit can't fire at something right in front of it?

What other weapon besides has minimum range??
If there are other weapons, you must still follow the codex rules as they supercede.

Secondly, minimum range with barrage just means that you can fire at it now. Before, you could fire indirectly, but not within minimum range, but now, minimum range is also considered indirect fire, instead of impossible.

Well, my point is that the guard codex doesn't define what minimum range means, and neither does the rulebook.

In the case of, say, a basilisk, it just says range 36"-240". In the rulebook, for blast weapons, it only says that you must target a unit that is less than the maximum range. Shooting at something 6" away would qualify as less than 240".

The barrage rules then don't go on to make any special exception about minimum ranges (except to say ignore them), which means, as the barrage rules don't say anything about minimum range, then you would have to fall back to the rules for blast weapons, which also don't mention minimum range.

As such, I'm pretty sure you can just ignore that 36" number in a basilisk's profile, as there aren't any rules governing what that means.

Ailaros wrote:Well, my point is that the guard codex doesn't define what minimum range means, and neither does the rulebook.

In the case of, say, a basilisk, it just says range 36"-240". In the rulebook, for blast weapons, it only says that you must target a unit that is less than the maximum range. Shooting at something 6" away would qualify as less than 240".

The barrage rules then don't go on to make any special exception about minimum ranges (except to say ignore them), which means, as the barrage rules don't say anything about minimum range, then you would have to fall back to the rules for blast weapons, which also don't mention minimum range.

As such, I'm pretty sure you can just ignore that 36" number in a basilisk's profile, as there aren't any rules governing what that means.

The new rulebook says "firing indirectly is how to govern shooting outside of LoS or under minimum range"
There are no other weapons with minimum ranges.
The rules for Barrage say follow the rules for blast UNLESS firing under minimum range (first bullet point), in which case, you must fire using the indirect rules. It does NOT say to ignore minimum ranges in barrage. It specifically says treat under minimum as firing indirectly. The barrage rules are quite explicit on minimum range, not "don't say anything about minimum range", so you do NOT fall back to the rules for blast weapons. That is why this is an EXCEPTION to using blast rules.
You do not ignore anything, it is explicit:
Fire a barrage like you do a blast, but use the barrage rules. If you want, you can fire under a minimum range (for models that have one), or without line of sight. This is called firing indirectly. When firing indirectly, you never subtract BS; unless a hit is rolled, you always scatter a full 2d6.

Very explicit.

At the start it does mention weapons sometimes have a minimum range. It is implicitly implied again at the start that minimum range is the minimum. It just doesn't make it explicit.

Just as in the barrage rules it implicitly suggests barrage weapons can not fire directly within minimum range, but doesn't say it out right.

Firing Barrage directly does not mean treat like a blast weapon. It only means treat as Barrage and reduce scatter(plus also only outside minimum range, but this is not so clear)
[Sorry, I know everyone it saying this, but it bears repeating]

scrambles wrote:The rules for Barrage say follow the rules for blast UNLESS firing under minimum range (first bullet point), in which case, you must fire using the indirect rules.

Right. The only thing that a minimum range appears to do is to tell you when you must use the indirect fire rules.

It doesn't seem to have any other purpose, though.

I mean, I guess if there was a unit out there that explicitly said that it wasn't allowed to fire indirectly as a special rule, then it would behave like in 5th edition, but otherwise...