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MFletch wrote:At the start it does mention weapons sometimes have a minimum range. It is implicitly implied again at the start that minimum range is the minimum. It just doesn't make it explicit.

Just as in the barrage rules it implicitly suggests barrage weapons can not fire directly within minimum range, but doesn't say it out right.

Firing Barrage directly does not mean treat like a blast weapon. It only means treat as Barrage and reduce scatter(plus also only outside minimum range, but this is not so clear)
[Sorry, I know everyone it saying this, but it bears repeating]

Yes, you are correct. The current argument is really nitpicking. Minimum range is the first number. I don't know why the BRB would have to write this out, it's obvious, though you're right, not 100% explicit.
ANd again, you're right, firing barrage doesn't mean treat it like a blast weapon, it means the shooting is resolved like a blast weapon.
However, it is explicit about this point saying
Use the rules for blast weapons with the following exceptions
....all barrage weapons have pinning.
....to determine cover saves, and wound allocation, assume the blast comes from the center of the marker.

Therefore, use explicitly use blast rules in addition to the barrage bonuses. Again firing indirectly is a bonus as well. Blast weapons can't shoot outside of LoS unless specifically stated.


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Ailaros wrote:

scrambles wrote:The rules for Barrage say follow the rules for blast UNLESS firing under minimum range (first bullet point), in which case, you must fire using the indirect rules.

Right. The only thing that a minimum range appears to do is to tell you when you must use the indirect fire rules.

It doesn't seem to have any other purpose, though.

I mean, I guess if there was a unit out there that explicitly said that it wasn't allowed to fire indirectly as a special rule, then it would behave like in 5th edition, but otherwise...

Yes, but there's no other need for it. In 5th you could not fire under minimum, in 6th, you can, but just indirectly. This is a huge boost imo, to units that had large minimum ranges like the basilisk. It's indirect under 36", but hey, at least you can shoot it now.

Almost all weapons cannot fire indirectly, because of the way the wording of shooting requires Line of Sight. Indirect is a bonus. I don't believe there are any weapons though that specifically say they cannot, for whatever reason. It's just understood that without LoS, you can't fire.

The confusion with minimum range is that in the barrage rules, it says it -CAN- fire indirectly at targets under minimum range. Not that it MUST fire indirectly at targets under minimum range. It states nowhere else in the rule book that minimum range means you cannot fire at a target. Ergo, a unit can fire at a unit within it's minimum range, but choose not to fire indirectly. So, yeah by RAW, minimum range is basically irrelevant because you would never choose to fire indirectly (unless forced, like the griffon).

Frankly, this is just dumb writing on GW part. It should have either been "the unit MUST fire indirectly at targets out of LoS, or within minimum range", or just faqed all barrage weapons to no longer have a minimum range (im not sure if they intended for minimum range to still be a thing or not).

The only big change I see, that I could take argument with, is the wording about "Unless a hit is rolled". For whatever reason, the BRB doesn't point out the arrow on the Hit! marker. It could be argued that when rolling a hit, you still scatter, reducing BS in the direction of that arrow, but the BRB is not explicit about it. It would coincide with the term "ALWAYS scatters" but again, it's not explicit what always means. 5th edition did make that specific distinction, pointing out the arrow and using the exact wording, but 6th doesn't, so it's debateable.

On one hand, if it doesn't use the arrow on the Hit! picture, then one can understand the rule as 'if a hit is rolled it doesn't scatter a single inch and everything else scatters without BS reduction' and on the other hand if the arrow is used, it would mean 'if a hit is rolled, scatter in the direction but subtract BS, and everything else scatters without reduction'.

Logically, it makes more sense to scatter on a hit and reduce, than to hit perfectly and scatter full 2d6 on everything else, because the aforementioned means the artillery is always a bit imprecise, whereas the latter says it will each hit perfectly or scatter.

Also, I tried looking up 6th edition dice to see if they had a scatter so that I could look at the hit dice and see if there was an arrow, but no such luck.


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McGibs wrote:The confusion with minimum range is that in the barrage rules, it says it -CAN- fire indirectly at targets under minimum range. Not that it MUST fire indirectly at targets under minimum range. It states nowhere else in the rule book that minimum range means you cannot fire at a target. Ergo, a unit can fire at a unit within it's minimum range, but choose not to fire indirectly. So, yeah by RAW, minimum range is basically irrelevant because you would never choose to fire indirectly (unless forced, like the griffon).

Frankly, this is just dumb writing on GW part. It should have either been "the unit MUST fire indirectly at targets out of LoS, or within minimum range", or just faqed all barrage weapons to no longer have a minimum range (im not sure if they intended for minimum range to still be a thing or not).

The entire book is full of cut and editted sentences to save space. However, on this point I must disagree. It doesn't say "it can fire indirectly at targets out of LoS, or within minimum range". That is close to what it says, but a bit too vague.

Instead, it says "a barrage weapon can fire indirectly. This means that it can fire out of LoS or inside of minimum range."

One wording (yours) seems to be giving it an option, whereas mine (direct quote) confers additional rules to indirect firing. I don't think I'm making myself clear T_T, umm ok, in yours, the qualifier "can", gives the option of firing indirectly or firing directly at targets out of LoS or within minimum range, whereas the qualifier in my wording gives the option of firing indirectly or directly, with the exception that if you choose to fire indirectly, you can fire at things which are out of LoS or inside minimum range.

It depends

I like the gryphon and hydra to be cheap and keep points for other FOC choices S6 large templates and a damper on aircraft are good. For what 300 points you have two of each.

If you want to go mechanized, lehman russ on the flanks really protect your chimera flanks with their paper thin 10 AV.

Medusa is good for the firepower versus real dollar cost. Albeit you are a prisoner to the d3 templates roll.

BARRAGE!
CONTINUING THE PROUD TRADITION OF GW NOT REALLY DOING IT GOOD! TWENTY YEARS OF GUESS RANGE, MINIMUM DISTANCE, AND NOW.. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WTF. SCREW IT.

McGibs wrote:BARRAGE!
CONTINUING THE PROUD TRADITION OF GW NOT REALLY DOING IT GOOD! TWENTY YEARS OF GUESS RANGE, MINIMUM DISTANCE, AND NOW.. I DON'T REALLY KNOW WTF. SCREW IT.

I don't know what you have against impassable terrain, but it's done nothing wrong, sir.
hardyhar

Perhaps the discussion of barrage weapons should be moved to YMDC. Also, has anyone thought to call gw and ask them? Just an idea.

McGibs wrote:Frankly, this is just dumb writing on GW part. It should have either been "the unit MUST fire indirectly at targets out of LoS, or within minimum range"

Right, because that's apparently what they actually did write, except found a really confusing way to say it.

That you have the option to fire indirectly, even at targets that you can see, or are outside of minimum range is, practically, ridiculous, as you get no bonuses along with a penalty. If they got rid of the option to fire indirectly at targets you can see or are outside of minimum range, that would make the rule a lot clearer.

Furthermore, it really doesn't make sense. I think what they were possibly trying (and failing) was to say that you can shoot barrage out to a certain range just fine, but if you shoot it in adverse conditions (like not being able to see it, or if the shot is too far away), then you can't use your BS to modify the shot. Of course, as written, it's the opposite - a basilisk has a harder time hitting its targets the closer they get. Them's the breaks I suppose...

DAaddict wrote:It depends

I like the gryphon and hydra to be cheap and keep points for other FOC choices S6 large templates and a damper on aircraft are good. For what 300 points you have two of each.

If you want to go mechanized, lehman russ on the flanks really protect your chimera flanks with their paper thin 10 AV.

Medusa is good for the firepower versus real dollar cost. Albeit you are a prisoner to the d3 templates roll.

The only problem is that hydra is now really bad against troops. A hydra is 75 points with 2 autocannons @ 4 shots.
A squad of autocannon heavy weapons is also 75, or an infantry squad with 3 will only run you 30 points for 3 of them. This will give you 6 shots, on top of being able to twinlink them with bring it down.
AGainst a flyer, the hydra will hit more, but there are far more ground targets than flyer targets, and the hydra will have a very difficult time hitting those.

All in all, I'd say that instead of a hydra, pick up an aegis defense line with quad gun, and put creed behind it for BS5 shooting. Not only do you get to shoot the reserve model as it comes in, it's much higher BS, and comes with 4+ cover saves for a lot of guys (22" worth), it also has wounds instead of hull points, so it cannot be stunned.
Maybe one aegis and one hydra? I think that's better than 2 hydras.

Griffon is nice too though. Great for two for 150 and being able to drop those pie plates at S6.

Lastly, a vendetta with hull heavy bolters is 140, can shoot aircraft at full BS, is twinlinked and has S9 guns instead of 7. It's cheaper than 2 hydras and much harder to kill, and great against both ground and air.

scrambles wrote:


or an infantry squad with 3 will only run you 30 points for 3 of them.

You're neglecting to mention the 150pts in infantry squads you need to buy in order to get those 3 autocannons for an additional 30pts.

However, I do agree with your overall assessment of our anti-air options. The Hydra certainly got brought back in line as a solid, yet specialized unit. Once the meta settles (namely after a few 6th ed codices have been released) we might re-evaluate the Hydra if fliers become more prevalent. The Aegis + quad gun combo is truly a great bargain, and with a vendetta or two, it'll be all the anti-air you really need in medium sized games.

Has anybody played enough of the arty options we have to get a feel for which one feels the best, or is it still mostly speculation and trial'n'error?

scrambles wrote:

DAaddict wrote:It depends

I like the gryphon and hydra to be cheap and keep points for other FOC choices S6 large templates and a damper on aircraft are good. For what 300 points you have two of each.

If you want to go mechanized, lehman russ on the flanks really protect your chimera flanks with their paper thin 10 AV.

Medusa is good for the firepower versus real dollar cost. Albeit you are a prisoner to the d3 templates roll.

The only problem is that hydra is now really bad against troops. A hydra is 75 points with 2 autocannons @ 4 shots.
A squad of autocannon heavy weapons is also 75, or an infantry squad with 3 will only run you 30 points for 3 of them. This will give you 6 shots, on top of being able to twinlink them with bring it down.
AGainst a flyer, the hydra will hit more, but there are far more ground targets than flyer targets, and the hydra will have a very difficult time hitting those.

All in all, I'd say that instead of a hydra, pick up an aegis defense line with quad gun, and put creed behind it for BS5 shooting. Not only do you get to shoot the reserve model as it comes in, it's much higher BS, and comes with 4+ cover saves for a lot of guys (22" worth), it also has wounds instead of hull points, so it cannot be stunned.
Maybe one aegis and one hydra? I think that's better than 2 hydras.

Griffon is nice too though. Great for two for 150 and being able to drop those pie plates at S6.

Lastly, a vendetta with hull heavy bolters is 140, can shoot aircraft at full BS, is twinlinked and has S9 guns instead of 7. It's cheaper than 2 hydras and much harder to kill, and great against both ground and air.

And I say take creed because foot is Really really where IG is at now. It's dumb not to take him at this point. The 24" range of orders is great, and honor of cadia has helped me keep troops in CC with wolves for many turns. A good tactic is holding him at the back and ordering troops in front to ground (like flamer spec squads), giving yourself some really nice bubblewrap.


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Blacksails wrote:

scrambles wrote:


or an infantry squad with 3 will only run you 30 points for 3 of them.

You're neglecting to mention the 150pts in infantry squads you need to buy in order to get those 3 autocannons for an additional 30pts.

However, I do agree with your overall assessment of our anti-air options. The Hydra certainly got brought back in line as a solid, yet specialized unit. Once the meta settles (namely after a few 6th ed codices have been released) we might re-evaluate the Hydra if fliers become more prevalent. The Aegis + quad gun combo is truly a great bargain, and with a vendetta or two, it'll be all the anti-air you really need in medium sized games.

Has anybody played enough of the arty options we have to get a feel for which one feels the best, or is it still mostly speculation and trial'n'error?

I've played games with single manticores, and other games with double basilisk.

The list I've settled on is a single manty with a demolisher (depending on enemy, outflanking), with a ton of guardsmen out front. Three flamer spec squads in the front in some, and going to ground every turn, sometimes with the incoming order. 2 squads of PCS one with 4 squads of lascannon/plasma broken up into squads of 2 or 4, the other with three squads of autocannons and flamers, two vendets with melta spec squads, and an LRBT, and a psyker, and also creed squad.

Just fill the first 24 inches with guys. Wrap in key spots with flamer troops and just nuke. Manticore is phenomenal. So destructive against vehicle lists (which people are still running for some reason) and horde alike, as well as marine squads (enjoy your 13 saves and pinning).
Basilisk is also amazing, but really depends on your deployment. On a long table, it's great, but in that 36" minimum, it's very difficult to hit.

Medusa is also nice. I played one game with a proxy and complements the demolisher very nicely. I just put them side by side, demolisher in front, and wait.

I mean, one of the only things we really have to watch out for now, is termies, since they got a huge buff in CC. But their landraiders got crappier. What this means is that unless they're deepstriking, you need lots of hits at high strength at long range to make them slog. The best heavies for this job are manticore, LRBT with lascannon, and lascannon teams (also vendetta). Basilisk and medusa don't really do that job effectively enough, but that's what your endless foot guard squads are for!

Also to answer your post, yes, it costs 150, nay 180 for 3 squds, then another 30 for autocannons, but you really cannot beat foot guard now.
I like to outflank the autocannon squad using creed. Show up behind them with 3 autocannons in MSU, flamers, and a pcs with 3 meltas. Anything in the far corner is going to be gone within two turns.

scrambles wrote:And I say take creed because foot is Really really where IG is at now. It's dumb not to take him at this point. The 24" range of orders is great, and honor of cadia has helped me keep troops in CC with wolves for many turns. A good tactic is holding him at the back and ordering troops in front to ground (like flamer spec squads), giving yourself some really nice bubblewrap.

Firstly, how did you use honor of cadia to keep something in close combat for several turns? Orders only last until the end of the player turn, which means that in your opponent's close combat phase, they can just walk all over you with morale.

Secondly, I don't know if creed is any more worth taking than before. Taking two CCS is still more durable, still gives you a much more flexible range, and still throws down the same number of orders. All for a fair bit cheaper.

Perhaps orders themselves became more valuable (which I rather question), but I fail to see how creed is the best way compared to 2x CCSs. Unless, I guess, if you REALLY wanted something else for your other HQ slot...