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pretre wrote:Heh. How dare we pay for rules once every 4 years!

Hmm… let me think in over 30 years I have only had to buy rules for Monopoly once. Some people find it more important to find a set of rules that they enjoy regardless of how old they are. The “most important rule” in all editions is to have fun not to WAAC against noobs in the local tournaments with the new shiny cheese.


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AegisGrimm wrote:
-VDR rules
-Killteam games
-Deathwatch Squads
-Cursed Company space marine armies
-Space Wolves 13th company
- Eldar "Ulthwe Strike Force" armies
-Kroot Mercenaries
-Feral Orks

Amen to playing for fun

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:Heh. How dare we pay for rules once every 4 years!

Hmm… let me think in over 30 years I have only had to buy rules for Monopoly once.

That one doesn't quite work, as there's multiple editions you can buy with different rules:

Monopoly Jr.
Monopoly Revolution
Monopoly Here and Now
Monopoly City

Plus Monopoly Build and the Monopoly card game.

As well, the standard version now actually contains two sets of rules: Standard and Fast Play(which introduces a new die type).

We own 6 different versions of the game(my wife LOVES Monopoly), plus an official dog themed money/house/playing piece swap expansion.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:Heh. How dare we pay for rules once every 4 years!

Hmm… let me think in over 30 years I have only had to buy rules for Monopoly once. Some people find it more important to find a set of rules that they enjoy regardless of how old they are. The “most important rule” in all editions is to have fun not to WAAC against noobs in the local tournaments with the new shiny cheese.

Yeah, but chances are you don't play as many hours of monopoly as you do of 40k (I know I didn't). The amount of enjoyment I get out of 40k is certainly worth $50-80 for a rulebook every 4 years.

pretre wrote:Yeah, but chances are you don't play as many hours of monopoly as you do of 40k (I know I didn't). The amount of enjoyment I get out of 40k is certainly worth $50-80 for a rulebook every 4 years.

When the mood strikes us to play Monopoly or Risk our games can last for a week or so. That aside, the key there is"enjoyment". If you enjoy an older ed and all your mates are cool with it then you really did get your $$ worth out of that initial $50 investment. Nobody has to play a game they don't like.

Sure, sure. But there are also a pretty big set of people who get bored with an edition of 40k and want a shake-up. Just look at all the posts of people who thought 5th was stale so put aside their armies until 6th came out. Same thing happened with 3rd and 4th.


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Also, how does a game of Monopoly or Risk last for a week?

pretre wrote:Sure, sure. But there are also a pretty big set of people who get bored with an edition of 40k and want a shake-up. Just look at all the posts of people who thought 5th was stale so put aside their armies until 6th came out. Same thing happened with 3rd and 4th.


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Also, how does a game of Monopoly or Risk last for a week?

When you have good players that know the rules its easy. Our longest game on Monopoly lasted 8 days and risk 10 and those games were usually for 4-6 hours a day.

Most of the people that get bored are the same old WAAC tournament crowd that all play the same internet lists over and over again. If somebody is getting board it is due to a lack of imagination. There are 14 different armies, numerous supplements, campaigns, FW books, plus the really good groups make up their own scenarios. The possibilities are endless. I have found that the majority of people who sit out between editions do it out of frustration with the power creep and the tournament crowds that tend to take over local game stores

That's assuming a lot about people and levelling some nasty labels. Feel free to demonize people who play differently than you though.

pretre wrote:That's assuming a lot about people and levelling some nasty labels. Feel free to demonize people who play differently than you though.

Didn’t you do the same thing by insisting that we should all be ok with paying for a new rule book every 4 years

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Didn’t you do the same thing by insisting that we should all be ok with paying for a new rule book every three plus another one years

Sorry couldn't help myself

Vaktathi wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:
Didn’t you do the same thing by insisting that we should all be ok with paying for a new rule book every three plus another one years

Sorry couldn't help myself

"some beans and that one make four" nice one

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:That's assuming a lot about people and levelling some nasty labels. Feel free to demonize people who play differently than you though.

Didn’t you do the same thing by insisting that we should all be ok with paying for a new rule book every 4 years

I didn't label you as LAAC or Fluffy Bunny or Luddites though. There's a difference between making a silly comment like 'How dare we have to buy a new book every 4 years?' and saying that people who get bored with the game are obviously WAAC with no imagination.

pretre wrote:I didn't label you as LAAC or Fluffy Bunny or Luddites though. There's a difference between making a silly comment like 'How dare we have to buy a new book every 4 years?' and saying that people who get bored with the game are obviously WAAC with no imagination.

Insinuation is the fruit of the tree of sarcasm.

Some people may think that 80 dollars for a new rulebook every three to four years isn't that big a deal, but I see it as 80 dollars plus the complete and utter invalidating of all the additional money I spent on codexes and specialty armies in that time period. Some of that material I even have to buy all over againin a slightly different form just to keep up with the current rules.

Why should I buy all the rules and supporting material for a current edition if I will end up having to replace it later to keep playing?

For one thing, I really like playing my Kroot Merc army and my Legion of the Damned cursed founding army. I spent lots of money and time painting and modelling them. To bad I can never again play them if I want to play in the current public scene. Or my scratch-built Nuadhu Fireheart on his Viper platform for my Eldar that I can only play in home games now because he was deleted from the latest codex, while all the Space Mehreens got a bunch of nifty new toys at the same time.

And that's what leaves the biggest nasty taste in my mouth. It's not that the latest edition of the rules changes things around, it's that GW outright deletes things with every new ruleset that I have spent good hard-earned money on and shouldn't be banned from using if I want to keep playing.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

pretre wrote:I didn't label you as LAAC or Fluffy Bunny or Luddites though. There's a difference between making a silly comment like 'How dare we have to buy a new book every 4 years?' and saying that people who get bored with the game are obviously WAAC with no imagination.

Insinuation is the fruit of the tree of sarcasm.

CSB.

I'll just go off and be a WAAC gamer with no imagination now and leave you to your business.

AegisGrimm wrote:Some people may think that 80 dollars for a new rulebook every three to four years isn't that big a deal, but I see it as 80 dollars plus the invalidating all the other money I spent on codexes and specialty armies in that time period. Some of that material I even have to buy all over againin a slightly different form just to keep up with the current rules.

For one thing, I really like playing my Kroot Merc army and my Legion of the Damned cursed founding army. I spent lots of money and time painting and modelling them. To bad I can never again play them if I want to play in the current public scene. Or my scratch-built Nuadhu Fireheart on his Viper platform for my Eldar that I can only play in home games now because he was deleted from the latest codex, while all the Space Mehreens got a bunch of nifty new toys at the same time.

And that's what leaves the biggest nasty taste in my mouth. It's not that the latest edition of the rules changes things around, it's that GW outright deletes things with every new ruleset that I have spent good hard-earned money on and shouldn't be banned from using if I want to keep playing.

CAN I GET AN AMEN FROM THE CONGRAGATION
Preach on brother preach on

AegisGrimm wrote:Some people may think that 80 dollars for a new rulebook every three to four years isn't that big a deal, but I see it as 80 dollars plus the complete and utter invalidating of all the additional money I spent on codexes and specialty armies in that time period. Some of that material I even have to buy all over againin a slightly different form just to keep up with the current rules.

It is rare that you will have an army completely invalidated with a new edition. This is especially true if you have a broad collection for an army.

For one thing, I really like playing my Kroot Merc army and my Legion of the Damned cursed founding army. I spent lots of money and time painting and modelling them. To bad I can never again play them if I want to play in the current public scene. Or my scratch-built Nuadhu Fireheart on his Viper platform for my Eldar that I can only play in home games now because he was deleted from the latest codex, while all the Space Mehreens got a bunch of nifty new toys at the same time.

The great WD codex purging would be the exception to that rule and this did not occur in the move from 5th to 6th.

And that's what leaves the biggest nasty taste in my mouth. It's not that the latest edition of the rules changes things around, it's that GW outright deletes things with every new ruleset that I have spent good hard-earned money on and shouldn't be banned from using if I want to keep playing.

What was deleted with 6th?

The major problem that a lot of people have, myself included, is that it is $80 for the rule book, then $35 for your new army book. This is coupled with the fact that once a new Ed comes out people don’t want to let you use older chapter approved/codex’/FW in the local GW, which people spend a lot of money to build an army around. Even every 4 years or so a minimum of $115 to keep playing the same army is a lot to ask people to do when in the past 8 years the cost of living has risen and wages have stagnated if not fallen.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:The major problem that a lot of people have, myself included, is that it is $80 for the rule book, then $35 for your new army book. This is coupled with the fact that once a new Ed comes out people don’t want to let you use older chapter approved/codex’/FW in the local GW. Even every 4 years or so a minimum of $115 to keep playing the same army is a lot to ask people to do when in the past 8 years the cost of living has risen and wages have stagnated if not fallen.

How many hours of play/enjoyment do you get for $115? Even if you only play 10 games in 4 years (which is crazy low), that's 20 hours of enjoyment for $115. Compare that to 20 hours worth of going to a movie theatre, DVDs or video games. And considering most of us will play a lot more than 10 games in 4 years, it is certainly a bargain.
(I would say probably closer to one game every 2-3 weeks for me, so 70-100 games (140-200 hours) in 4 years. Not many fun things you can do for ~$0.50/hour.)

The great WD codex purging would be the exception to that rule and this did not occur in the move from 5th to 6th.

Nope, but it certainly kept me from going past 4th very effectively by telling me I can't use some of my stuff anymore. If anything, all along White Dwarf could have been updating old Chapter Approved items to each the current ruleset, instead of telling me the latest greatest thing I should be buying, like the magazine used to do in it's better years.

What was deleted with 6th?

Who knows.... yet?


The other problem I have with new rules editions are all the leapfroging piecemeal updates that come along with them. One or two best-selling armies(usually Space Marines and EQ) will get a codex re-vamp along with a boost in power, and everyone who doesn't play them has to struggle to catch up until someday they get updated- maybe even before the next rules edition comes out.

At least when you go backwards, it's easy(er) to gather together a level playing field among the codex editions(that are current with that rule edition) all at one time, and I feel that the end of 4th edition was when the biggest shift over to "tournament gaming" versus "home gaming" was made, but that's just my opinion.


I always thought the rules editions should be farther apart, but maybe with every other rules incarnation have all the main codexes be updated within that calendar year.

How many hours of play/enjoyment do you get for $115?

In the case of my Kroot Mercenaries? Absolutely none, now. And for twice that price.

AegisGrimm wrote: with every other rules incarnation have all the main codexes be updated within that calendar year.

I completely agree with this.

So far I think 6th has actually made a more even playing field between codices. Eldar, for instance, are much better now than in 5th.

While I agree that it's extraordinarily annoying to have a favourite character or unit removed from the game, or even just made sub-par by new rules (which is more common and actually seems to happen in a lot of games, I think that in most casual games you could explain your character and their rules and folk would let you play him (especially if you were careful to point out any rules that would make him especially nasty in the new edition). Or it would be possibly to use him as a 'counts as', which should be perfectly legitimate in GW shops -- the rulebook has a section where they say they don't mind old models being used in that way. Only in competitions would you run into a problem, I think.

pretre wrote:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:The major problem that a lot of people have, myself included, is that it is $80 for the rule book, then $35 for your new army book. This is coupled with the fact that once a new Ed comes out people don’t want to let you use older chapter approved/codex’/FW in the local GW. Even every 4 years or so a minimum of $115 to keep playing the same army is a lot to ask people to do when in the past 8 years the cost of living has risen and wages have stagnated if not fallen.

How many hours of play/enjoyment do you get for $115? Even if you only play 10 games in 4 years (which is crazy low), that's 20 hours of enjoyment for $115. Compare that to 20 hours worth of going to a movie theatre, DVDs or video games. And considering most of us will play a lot more than 10 games in 4 years, it is certainly a bargain.
(I would say probably closer to one game every 2-3 weeks for me, so 70-100 games (140-200 hours) in 4 years. Not many fun things you can do for ~$0.50/hour.)

I agree with this here. I've seen dudes burn 100 bucks at a bar in ONE NIGHT. I get more enjoyment out of a $80 book over multiple years than I will out of spending $100 in one day at a bar, or Dave & Busters's, or Ceder Point or whatever.

When I tell people about my hobby, I'm sure to include "Yeah, I know it's expensive. But I love it so I put money into it."

pretre wrote:How many hours of play/enjoyment do you get for $115? Even if you only play 10 games in 4 years (which is crazy low), that's 20 hours of enjoyment for $115. Compare that to 20 hours worth of going to a movie theatre, DVDs or video games. And considering most of us will play a lot more than 10 games in 4 years, it is certainly a bargain.
(I would say probably closer to one game every 2-3 weeks for me, so 70-100 games (140-200 hours) in 4 years. Not many fun things you can do for ~$0.50/hour.)

That is the GW training sales pitch that they teach all retail employees. It was complete BS when they started it around 2001 and is still BS now, nobody is going to tell you that you can't play your DVD or video game in 4 years. Isn't it more practical to use the same edition you like for 10 or so years, then how many hours of enjoyment are you getting?

Isn't it more practical to use the same edition you like for 10 or so years, then how many hours of enjoyment are you getting?

In fairness, most wargames go through editions fairly quickly and old units have to be revamped. Even WRG did this in the good old days.

Nothing stops you from playing an old edition of any game, except the fact that most people will play the newest edition. But that's surely common for all miniature wargames. Where GW is different is that it gives you a place to play for free (or rather for the price of buying and adapting to the newest edition).

Nobody is going to tell you you can't rewatch your DVD 500 times and no one is saying you can't play your previous edition for the next hundred years.

To say that it is BS that we're getting a good value out of the $115 we pay every four years for a ruleset and codex update that is used for hundreds of hours of enjoyment is just crazy though.

Also, it is very possible that someone will tell you you can't play your DVD in 4 years. In fact, the movie industry has switched formats quite a few times and made people re-buy movies if they wanted all of the newest features and support.

Good point. When VHS died a commercial death, I had to rebuy most of my tapes on DVD. Doubtless when DVD dies I will instead have to pay to download them. Bloody commercial enterprises always trying to find new ways to get me to pay for old things. Swines.

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Good point. When VHS died a commercial death, I had to rebuy most of my tapes on DVD. Doubtless when DVD dies I will instead have to pay to download them. Bloody commercial enterprises always trying to find new ways to get me to pay for old things. Swines.

You don't have to re-buy anything as long as your player works. Replacing things because you have to and replacing because you want to are two different things.

Mmm. But sadly video players don't last forever.

Points still stands regardless. The wider industry moves on regardless of those who hug older 'technology'. And you may play your old codices and editions happily while others around you embrace change. You just fnd there are fewer people doing what you do. Which matters less with films, I grant you, but multi-player computer games it matters a lot (yes, you can find people who still play old games online, but it's easier to find those who play the latest).

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Blood and Slaughter wrote:Good point. When VHS died a commercial death, I had to rebuy most of my tapes on DVD. Doubtless when DVD dies I will instead have to pay to download them. Bloody commercial enterprises always trying to find new ways to get me to pay for old things. Swines.

You don't have to re-buy anything as long as your player works. Replacing things because you have to and replacing because you want to are two different things.

Exactly my point. No one has to rebuy 40k. Replacing 40k because you have to and replacing it because you want to are two different things. I never said that you had to upgrade to 6th, I just said that it was silly to complain about $80 after 4 years of play when you got more than your money's worth.

Just as I didn't think it was a big deal to buy a new DVD player and get some movies I already owned on a new medium. I had already gotten my money's worth out of my VHS.

You can continue to watch VHS tapes and play 4th edition as long as you want. Some people don't mind getting the new edition or the new technology though.

Back on topic, favorite by far was early days original first edition, when it was just the RT book and a few additions in white dwarf once in a while. More of a skirmish feel with a touch of an RPG flavor to it without going into RPG continuation of characters. So much flavor, so much fun, so many good memories. Not much in the way of balance issues, almost everyone had access to almost everything, and all points were calculated off of formulas.

Yes, some rose colored glasses here too, but hey, that's life!

Of the editions since then, sixth is rapidly shaping up to be my second favorite, I am impressed so far. We will see where it goes with time...