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Anpu42 wrote:It does not differentiate between Transports and Dedicated Transports so it could be taken either way. Because a Dedicated Transport is always a Transport, but not all Transports are Dedicated. It could be taken either way, though I am more inclined to read it your way as now you pointed it out to me.

I see what you are saying. I consider when they say "any transport" they mean both dedicated and regular transports.

RESERVE (page 124)
When deploying their armies, players may choose not to deploy up to half of their units (rounding up) keeping them in Reserve to arrive later.
Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.
Independent Characters count as separate units regardless if they have joined another unit or not.

DEEP STRIKE (page 36)
When working out how many units can be placed in reserve, units that must be deployed by Deep Strike (along with any models embarked upon them) are ignored.
In addition, a unit that must arrive by Deep Strike (such as a Drop Pod) must do so even if you are playing a special mission where the Reserves special rule is not being used.

AERIAL SUPPORT (page 80)
Flyers must begin the game as Reserves - it takes time for a Warlord to organise and coordinate air support.

Things are a little complicated just because the rules are scattered all over the place. It is pretty straight forward once you grab all the rules though:

1. Units that must enter play via Deep Strike are ignored.
2. Any models embarked on a transport, dedicated or not, that must enter play via Deep Strike are ignored.
3. Any unit that must be held in Reserve (such as Flyers) are ignored.

Item 2 is neat. It lets you do things like combat squad a Tactical Squad and put two ICs in their Drop Pod with them and not count any of those 5 units (2 combat squads, 2 ICs, 1 Pod). There is also item 4, which still gets some debate:

4. Any dedicated transports for units that must be held in reserve are ignored.

Some people argue the above point isn't true. I'd argue the second line in the quoted rules above means that it is true, and that seems to be how most people locally are playing it. There was a post a week back or so and a lot of people here think that the above point is not true. But read the sentence again:

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes

To me it seems pretty clear that Dedicated Transports + the Unit they are attached to count as 1 unit, which gets ignored if the Unit must reserve. Honestly, most of the time it won't be much of an issue but it can be a point of contention. So check with your TO or opponent before the game starts.

Where do you get that a unit starting on a non-dedicated transport that must start in Reserves, does not count?

Happyjew wrote:Where do you get that a unit starting on a non-dedicated transport that must start in Reserves, does not count?

Only if they are DS does that apply. That is in the specific DS rules.

Ah, I missed that bit in the deep strike rule about models embarked on things like drop pods or the night scythe. Good to know, thanks.

As for your point 4, it would only count as one unit if the DT also started in reserve, but if the DT starts on the board then the unit would not count towards the limit. As you pointed out in the deep strike rule, it gives you the exact wording for DT's and the units embarked on them, not for Units and the DT's they're embarked on.

Kevin949 wrote:As for your point 4, it would only count as one unit if the DT also started in reserve, but if the DT starts on the board then the unit would not count towards the limit. As you pointed out in the deep strike rule, it gives you the exact wording for DT's and the units embarked on them, not for Units and the DT's they're embarked on.

Um, no. You seem to be misunderstanding (or I'm misunderstanding what you mean)

Point 4 has nothing to do with Deep Strike. Deep Strike has its own rules that override the normal Reserve rules, provided the transport is required to Deep Strike. If the transport is not required then the Deep Strike exceptions don't apply.

An IG Platoon lead by Al'rahem for example is required to Outflank. Which means they are required to Reserve. The units that are purchased as part of the Platoon do not count against you. Those units can also purchase Dedicated Transports. Because the unit is required to Reserve in order to Outflank, the Chimeras can come along too without costing you. That's what Point 4 means.

The alternative is that the Chimeras would still count against you if you wanted to use them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense with a compulsory option. Frankly I don't think it makes sense otherwise, and the two back to back sentences about Reserves I had quoted previously are pretty clear to me. But as I disclaimed, some others here on YMDC disagree...

So is a 100% Drop Pod army legal in 6th edition?

TigerLightning wrote:So is a 100% Drop Pod army legal in 6th edition?

Yes

cowmonaut wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:As for your point 4, it would only count as one unit if the DT also started in reserve, but if the DT starts on the board then the unit would not count towards the limit. As you pointed out in the deep strike rule, it gives you the exact wording for DT's and the units embarked on them, not for Units and the DT's they're embarked on.

Um, no. You seem to be misunderstanding (or I'm misunderstanding what you mean)

Point 4 has nothing to do with Deep Strike. Deep Strike has its own rules that override the normal Reserve rules, provided the transport is required to Deep Strike. If the transport is not required then the Deep Strike exceptions don't apply.

An IG Platoon lead by Al'rahem for example is required to Outflank. Which means they are required to Reserve. The units that are purchased as part of the Platoon do not count against you. Those units can also purchase Dedicated Transports. Because the unit is required to Reserve in order to Outflank, the Chimeras can come along too without costing you. That's what Point 4 means.

The alternative is that the Chimeras would still count against you if you wanted to use them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense with a compulsory option. Frankly I don't think it makes sense otherwise, and the two back to back sentences about Reserves I had quoted previously are pretty clear to me. But as I disclaimed, some others here on YMDC disagree...

I should have said "reserve rule" instead of "deep strike rule" though the wording for both is same (about units and dedicated transports and "must start in reserve").

The dedicated transports for that unit are not required to be in reserves though, they are opting to. Nothing in their profiles states they must, only that they can. They would still count as 1 unit (or however many DT's you purchased). Honestly, I'd probably argue that "only" Al'rahem wouldn't count (he's the model that "must" outflank, right? Which is conferred to the other units?) But, I don't know much about IG and how their list building works, but to me if the units are bought separately and then put together as one big unit they should count as however many units were purchased.

How are Chimera's Compulsory? I'm under the impression that there aren't any DT's that are required to be purchased with any unit.

Anyway, perhaps I'm looking to much into this and they do simply mean anything that must start in reserve doesn't count to the total and it doesn't matter the reason to "why" they "must" start in reserve. *Shrug* Doesn't affect me much honestly, so if the issue ever comes up in games I play I'm sure we'll resolve it amongst ourselves.

I guess you can pretty much just ignore this. Hah.

Kevin949 wrote:The dedicated transports for that unit are not required to be in reserves though, they are opting to. Nothing in their profiles states they must, only that they can. They would still count as 1 unit (or however many DT's you purchased).

See what I mean about that point being in contention? lol I take the following sentences:

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

To mean that Dedicated Transports and their parent unit to count as the same unit for the purposes of Reserves. Since that is put in after the comment about units that "must" reserve, I take it to mean that the DTs would not count either since the parent is. It doesn't make sense to me for them to state the same thing twice, back to back like that, as some people argue.

To put my understanding another way:

A = Dedicated Transport
B = Unit that purchased A
C = A + B

The rules first tell you that B does not count against you if it has to Reserve. It then tells you that A and B count as C. It seems strange to me that C would count against you if B does not count against you.

Why is this strange to me? Because GW could have just kept their mouth shut and had it work the way some people argue. But they opened their mouths, I'm assuming what they had to say was important.

Potentially a bad assumption!

Edit: Should clarify... If GW did not say the sentence "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes." Then C would count as 2 unless unit B did not count aganist you, in which case it would count as 1. Some people argue that's how it works, but that sentence isn't needed at all to make it work that way. It sounds more like you just ignore the Dedicated Transport.

But then why didn't they just say that... Well its GW. See heated threads like the Challenges + Wound Overflow thread to see other examples of GW complicating their own rules. Back to the original:

Kevin949 wrote:How are Chimera's Compulsory? I'm under the impression that there aren't any DT's that are required to be purchased with any unit.

There aren't. I never said they were. Not sure where that is coming from.

Cowmonaut has it, at least how I've read and interpreted the rules.

He raises the great point about the rules being scattered, but once you put them together, it really does make sense.

Unfortuantely, there's enough ambiguity, whether through GW's writing or people wanting to interpret it differently to hinder their opponents that it needs to be clarified in an FAQ.

cowmonaut wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:The alternative is that the Chimeras would still count against you if you wanted to use them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense with a compulsory option. Frankly I don't think it makes sense otherwise, and the two back to back sentences about Reserves I had quoted previously are pretty clear to me. But as I disclaimed, some others here on YMDC disagree...

cowmonaut wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:How are Chimera's Compulsory? I'm under the impression that there aren't any DT's that are required to be purchased with any unit.

There aren't. I never said they were. Not sure where that is coming from.

Maybe I didn't understand what you were trying sayin in the above then?

Anpu42 wrote:

TigerLightning wrote:So is a 100% Drop Pod army legal in 6th edition?

Yes

Except if you don't get first turn, and you have nothing on your side of the table at the start of his turn, the game ends.

Since, while you can reserve all of your units in this case, there has to be something on your side of the table in order for you not to automatically lose the game.

Crazyterran wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TigerLightning wrote:So is a 100% Drop Pod army legal in 6th edition?

Yes

Except if you don't get first turn, and you have nothing on your side of the table at the start of his turn, the game ends.

Since, while you can reserve all of your units in this case, there has to be something on your side of the table in order for you not to automatically lose the game.

It's at the end of any Game Turn if someone does not have any units on the table they lose.

Crazyterran wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

TigerLightning wrote:So is a 100% Drop Pod army legal in 6th edition?

Yes

Except if you don't get first turn, and you have nothing on your side of the table at the start of his turn, the game ends.

Since, while you can reserve all of your units in this case, there has to be something on your side of the table in order for you not to automatically lose the game.

Yeah this is wrong. At the end of the first turn you will have 50% of your army on the board.

Drop pods deploy like daemons, half of them come in first turn. We just don't have to roll for which half comes out first.

Kevin949 wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:The alternative is that the Chimeras would still count against you if you wanted to use them. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense with a compulsory option. Frankly I don't think it makes sense otherwise, and the two back to back sentences about Reserves I had quoted previously are pretty clear to me. But as I disclaimed, some others here on YMDC disagree...

cowmonaut wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:How are Chimera's Compulsory? I'm under the impression that there aren't any DT's that are required to be purchased with any unit.

There aren't. I never said they were. Not sure where that is coming from.

Maybe I didn't understand what you were trying sayin in the above then?

My apologies, that wasn't very clear. The Outflank for Al'rahem is compulsory, not the transports.

Ok heres a mind bender. I have:
Bran Redmaw w/
Pack of 10 GH + WGPL
Rune Priest w/
Pack of 10 Scouts + WGPL
Wolf Priest w/
Pack of 10 GH + WGPL
Pack of Long Fangs.
Pack of Long Fangs.
Pack of Long Fangs.
Thats 9 Units, halfing would give me 4.5, rounding to 5
If I wanted to outflank the 3 packs lead by IC's, could I purchase drop pods for both GH packs, send the pods down empty and also outflank the 2 GH packs. Would the purchasing of these 2 pods take the GH packs away from that 9 total, making it 7 allowing me to outflank 4 units, the scouts and IC's?

insaniak wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:Pg 124. Units that must start the game in reserve are
ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units
may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a
single unit for these purposes.

All that's saying is that if you start the unit in its transport, they are counted as a separate unit. There is nothing forcing you to put a unit in their drop pod.

I see nothing in the rule that references whether or not the unit is in or out of the tranpost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Won't work that way, Mephie is not an IC and cannot join a squad.

Anpu42 wrote:I am going to try it this way with changing some of the units.

Mephiston and an Honor Guard in a Razorback [Counts as 2 Units 1 for the HQ and 1 from the Honor Guard and its Transport]

Sanguinary Guard [Counts as 1 Unit, even though it CAN Deep Strike, it is an option so they still count as 1]

Tactical Squad in a Rhino [Counts as 1 Unit]
Assault Squad [Counts as 1 Unit, even though it CAN Deep Strike, it is an option so they still count as 1]

Rifleman-Dread w/ Drop Pod [Counts as 1 Unit, but because it MUST start in reserve counts as 0]

Predator [Counts as 1 Unit]
Predator [Counts as 1 Unit]

This give you 7+1 Units, of which 3.5 or 4 MAY start in Reserve and 1 that Must start in Reserve for a max total of 5 in Reserves.

Won't work that way, Mephie is not an IC and cannot join a squad. otherwise looks ok.

don_mondo wrote:I see nothing in the rule that references whether or not the unit is in or out of the tranpost.

If the unit isn't in its transport, there is no rule that requires it to start in reserve... so the rule saying that units that must start in reserve don't count towards the total doesn't apply to them.

I just finished up with this. The answer is three.
Page 36 over-rides page 124 with the drop pod. Both the Drop Pod and Dread are not counted.

The army seems to be very weak 1st turn and probably 2nd turn. If the enemy get into cc with you, you're probably gonna be tabled. Long fangs are great but they do tend to die when assaulted.

Vrall wrote:Ok heres a mind bender. I have:
Bran Redmaw w/
Pack of 10 GH + WGPL
Rune Priest w/
Pack of 10 Scouts + WGPL
Wolf Priest w/
Pack of 10 GH + WGPL
Pack of Long Fangs.
Pack of Long Fangs.
Pack of Long Fangs.
Thats 9 Units, halfing would give me 4.5, rounding to 5
If I wanted to outflank the 3 packs lead by IC's, could I purchase drop pods for both GH packs, send the pods down empty and also outflank the 2 GH packs. Would the purchasing of these 2 pods take the GH packs away from that 9 total, making it 7 allowing me to outflank 4 units, the scouts and IC's?

Why purchase the Drop Pods? The Drop Pods don't get counted.

And I'm not sure why you wouldn't want the Rune Priest on the table with the Long Fangs. I'm not a fan of keeping Rune Priests in Reserve, especially with powers that need to be used at the start of your Movement Phase (they can't use those if they aren't on the table). Also 12 models won't survive much shooting. Expect a bad day against Dark Eldar or Imperial Guard

insaniak wrote:

don_mondo wrote:I see nothing in the rule that references whether or not the unit is in or out of the tranpost.

If the unit isn't in its transport, there is no rule that requires it to start in reserve... so the rule saying that units that must start in reserve don't count towards the total doesn't apply to them.

And yet, the unit and its transport still count as a single unit. Whether both are required to start in reserves is irrelevant to how many units they count as when determining reserves count. they count as one. And (part of) that one unit MUST start in reserves, so that means we do not count any of that one unit when determining our reserves count.