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omgitsduane wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Engaged is defined on a model-by-model basis (BTB or w/in 2" of a friendly model in BTB), while the UNIT is locked in combat if a single model is engaged.

So what is being said here, is that he couldn't offer a challenge or accept one if he isn't engaged when the fighting begins?

We had a game where My prince charged a warrior at the front of the pack, and the minilord was just behind him, but clearly not in contact with that one, and the rulebook says pile in moves are done at initiative step then that model gets to fight accordingly. If my prince gets to strike first (which he does) and wipes the warriors and the lord (being the next closest model) he's safe or am I missing something?

And on the above point, if he tries to challenge me, he cannot because that lord isn't actually engaged with any models anyway?

Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

Anpu-adom wrote:Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

That's correct. It's worth mentioning, however, that because the Daemon Prince did the charging, the lord would not get MSS off anyways, because the Chaos player could (and should) choose to resolve the MSS before the challenge, meaning that they go off with no one in BTB.

Can someone help me with this MSS correct usage? I have come across them recently and would like a definitive guide to their correct usage?

Questions I have:
1. Are they allowed versus vehicles (specifically walkers)?
2. When is the MSS resolved?
3. Who is it allowed against? (i.e. is it random or is the necron player allowed to pick)

omgitsduane wrote:So what is being said here, is that he couldn't offer a challenge or accept one if he isn't engaged when the fighting begins?

Yes.

We had a game where My prince charged a warrior at the front of the pack, and the minilord was just behind him, but clearly not in contact with that one, and the rulebook says pile in moves are done at initiative step then that model gets to fight accordingly. If my prince gets to strike first (which he does) and wipes the warriors and the lord (being the next closest model) he's safe or am I missing something?

And on the above point, if he tries to challenge me, he cannot because that lord isn't actually engaged with any models anyway?

And no, at least not as you describe it. "Engaged" means in BTB, or within 2" of a model in BTB. If the minilord is "just behind" (in coherency with) the BTB warrior, he's close enough to challenge/be challenged.

Green is Best! wrote:Can someone help me with this MSS correct usage? I have come across them recently and would like a definitive guide to their correct usage?

Questions I have:
1. Are they allowed versus vehicles (specifically walkers)?
2. When is the MSS resolved?
3. Who is it allowed against? (i.e. is it random or is the necron player allowed to pick)

1. You would be able to use MSS on any model that has a leadership score. That would include walkers like a dreadnought.
2. MSS is resolved at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. If more than 1 event happens at the same time, the order is decided by the active player.
3. It is random of those in b2b. In a challenge, only the two combatants are determined to be in b2b with each other.

Anpu-adom wrote:1. You would be able to use MSS on any model that has a leadership score. That would include walkers like a dreadnought..

Walkers do not have a leadership score. I went through the brb. All I could find was the reference that vehicles pass all morale checks. I could find nothing regarding leadership tests one way or another.

Anpu-adom wrote:2. MSS is resolved at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. If more than 1 event happens at the same time, the order is decided by the active player.

OK. So this would be considered before I10 (i.e. hammer of wrath attacks)?

Green is Best! wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:1. You would be able to use MSS on any model that has a leadership score. That would include walkers like a dreadnought..

Walkers do not have a leadership score. I went through the brb. All I could find was the reference that vehicles pass all morale checks. I could find nothing regarding leadership tests one way or another.

Anpu-adom wrote:2. MSS is resolved at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase. If more than 1 event happens at the same time, the order is decided by the active player.

OK. So this would be considered before I10 (i.e. hammer of wrath attacks)?

yeah, it's done before any blows are struck.

and i'm glad to hear about that engaged/unengaged bit! my Tau friend will be relieved that we can't challenge out his Ethereal as long as it hangs out in the back!

Anpu-adom wrote:

omgitsduane wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Engaged is defined on a model-by-model basis (BTB or w/in 2" of a friendly model in BTB), while the UNIT is locked in combat if a single model is engaged.

So what is being said here, is that he couldn't offer a challenge or accept one if he isn't engaged when the fighting begins?

We had a game where My prince charged a warrior at the front of the pack, and the minilord was just behind him, but clearly not in contact with that one, and the rulebook says pile in moves are done at initiative step then that model gets to fight accordingly. If my prince gets to strike first (which he does) and wipes the warriors and the lord (being the next closest model) he's safe or am I missing something?

And on the above point, if he tries to challenge me, he cannot because that lord isn't actually engaged with any models anyway?

Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

Yes, he was right behind, being the next model in the melee to get struck down, so challenge has a range exactly the same as say, a powerfist sargeant trying to strike into the combat, but do IC's get a longer challenge range? If I could assault a unit far enough away from the lord, could I avoid him simply by being too far?

Roboute wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

That's correct. It's worth mentioning, however, that because the Daemon Prince did the charging, the lord would not get MSS off anyways, because the Chaos player could (and should) choose to resolve the MSS before the challenge, meaning that they go off with no one in BTB.

So even if he has nothing to MSS, I could say that he has to do it? Cos this was one of our first (if not the first) 6th ed games and I hadn't really learned much about challenges so I was expecting my two princes to run amuck through warriors squads like they used to, but were stopped dead in their tracks by a single mini lord.

omgitsduane wrote:
So even if he has nothing to MSS, I could say that he has to do it? Cos this was one of our first (if not the first) 6th ed games and I hadn't really learned much about challenges so I was expecting my two princes to run amuck through warriors squads like they used to, but were stopped dead in their tracks by a single mini lord.

You charge princes in unsupported in 5th? I never did. Now you need to multi-charge with a CSM champ to ensure your prince gets to fight who you want to fight. Not exactly difficult.

omgitsduane wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:

omgitsduane wrote:

Janthkin wrote:Engaged is defined on a model-by-model basis (BTB or w/in 2" of a friendly model in BTB), while the UNIT is locked in combat if a single model is engaged.

So what is being said here, is that he couldn't offer a challenge or accept one if he isn't engaged when the fighting begins?

We had a game where My prince charged a warrior at the front of the pack, and the minilord was just behind him, but clearly not in contact with that one, and the rulebook says pile in moves are done at initiative step then that model gets to fight accordingly. If my prince gets to strike first (which he does) and wipes the warriors and the lord (being the next closest model) he's safe or am I missing something?

And on the above point, if he tries to challenge me, he cannot because that lord isn't actually engaged with any models anyway?

Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

Yes, he was right behind, being the next model in the melee to get struck down, so challenge has a range exactly the same as say, a powerfist sargeant trying to strike into the combat, but do IC's get a longer challenge range? If I could assault a unit far enough away from the lord, could I avoid him simply by being too far?

That seems to be the consensus. If the character isn't engaged (within 2" of a model in b2b) then the character cannot issue or accept a challenge that combat.

omgitsduane wrote:

Roboute wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:Was the minilord withinn 2" of the warrior who was in base contact? If so, he's engaged and could have challenged and MSS your Prince. If he's out of the 2" at the beginning of the combat that he wouldn't be able to challenge. Right?

That's correct. It's worth mentioning, however, that because the Daemon Prince did the charging, the lord would not get MSS off anyways, because the Chaos player could (and should) choose to resolve the MSS before the challenge, meaning that they go off with no one in BTB.

So even if he has nothing to MSS, I could say that he has to do it? Cos this was one of our first (if not the first) 6th ed games and I hadn't really learned much about challenges so I was expecting my two princes to run amuck through warriors squads like they used to, but were stopped dead in their tracks by a single mini lord.

That's an interesting thought, but he wouldn't be forced to MSS nothing. Can he MSS once the challenge has started and they've moved into b2b? I think he can. It's still 'before blows have been struck'. He couldn't have used the MSS earlier because there were no enemy models in b2b (effectively avoiding the situation where his opponent gets to choose the order).

I guess that the lesson for Necron players is to keep that minilord (I like the phrase, and I'm going to steal it) with a single warrior bubble wrap from any direction that you are likely to get charged from. The lesson for people trying to avoid MSS is to assault the side of the unit farthest from the minilord.

Anpu-adom wrote:
That's an interesting thought, but he wouldn't be forced to MSS nothing. Can he MSS once the challenge has started and they've moved into b2b? I think he can. It's still 'before blows have been struck'. He couldn't have used the MSS earlier because there were no enemy models in b2b (effectively avoiding the situation where his opponent gets to choose the order).

MSS activates automatically though, doesn't it? As such, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first (MSS or Challenges) and as such chooses the MSS while the (O)Lord isn't in B2B with anyone.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:
That's an interesting thought, but he wouldn't be forced to MSS nothing. Can he MSS once the challenge has started and they've moved into b2b? I think he can. It's still 'before blows have been struck'. He couldn't have used the MSS earlier because there were no enemy models in b2b (effectively avoiding the situation where his opponent gets to choose the order).

MSS activates automatically though, doesn't it? As such, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first (MSS or Challenges) and as such chooses the MSS while the (O)Lord isn't in B2B with anyone.

Exactly. If the opposing player makes the MSS trigger first, it goes off with no one in base to base and therefore is wasted. You can't choose whether or not MSS triggers, it just happens when it happens, and if no one is in B2B them's the breaks.

Keep in mind that the wording of the MSS has been changed, per the FAQ. It's not 'before blows have been struck' anymore, it's 'at the start of the Fight sub-phase.' Same exact phrase as when challenges are resolved. That might be the source of your confusion, Anpu-adom.

Roboute wrote:
Exactly. If the opposing player makes the MSS trigger first, it goes off with no one in base to base and therefore is wasted. You can't choose whether or not MSS triggers, it just happens when it happens, and if no one is in B2B them's the breaks.

Keep in mind that the wording of the MSS has been changed, per the FAQ. It's not 'before blows have been struck' anymore, it's 'at the start of the Fight sub-phase.' Same exact phrase as when challenges are resolved. That might be the source of your confusion, Anpu-adom.

Fair enough.

I know that it takes place before any consolidations, so if the Lord isn't a the very front of the unit it wont have any effect. If he is, you can potentially shoot him out of the unit, or just manuevre so that a grunt touches him. (And as a rule with MSS, you only fail the test when the guy could do a lot of damage!)

OK. So to clarify:

1. MSS only works on units that are in b2b with the lord
2. MSS happens at the beginning of the fight sub-phase. Sequence of MSS and challenges is done my player whose turn it is.
3. If lord is not in b2b at beginning of sub-phase, MSS cannot go off.

Lastly, again I ask: Does MSS work on walkers who do not have a leadership?

MSS does not work on vehicles. Walkers included as they are vehicles.

Kevlar wrote:MSS does not work on vehicles. Walkers included as they are vehicles.

Yes. But how can I back this up? I have a necron player at my FGLS that is adamant it does.

He needs to prove that it does. It says no vehicles, walkers are vehicles, he now needs to prove that it does work. Since he cant, then your dread can ID his warlord.

Plus the part in the BRB that says vehicles auto pass all leadership tests. They don't have zero leadership. They just dont have to test on the stat ever.

Yeah. I made that case and he still would not relent. He pulled out some sort of FAQ that said it did, but I didn't get a chance to see it nor have I been able to find it since then.

I am just trying to get my facts in order for a tournament tomorrow (that he will most likely be in).