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Anyone have any way of defeating or avoiding MSS besides not just staying out of combat. I keep hearing that taking a sargent with nothing on him, but then when I get charged by anything from another army I'm screwed. So is there a loophole or any way around getting the least damage from it?

There are a few things that might help.

1 - two or more character models in the same squad. You can choose the lesser of the two to challenge and let the killy character go about his business.

2 - Some armies have units/characters that allow rerolls of LD checks. See if your codex has such a guy.

3 - units that have special CC weapons in them may not need a character leader. MSS can't pick out that guy unless he ends up in BTB.

4 - Some character (SM I believe) can auto pass LD checks.

5 - Shoot the lord dead before he gets into HTH.

Use positioning or precision shots to remove the lord is your best bet.

MSS is decided at the begining of the combat round, the same time as challenging. Which one comes first is determined by whose turn it is.

So make sure you get off the charge, put some chump in BTB with anyone who has MSS.
make MSS come first, so it works on the chump.
Then challenge the guy with MSS.
Try to kill guy with MSS.

Or

Attack with weight of numbers. 20 marines charging in with CCW and pistol dont really care about MSS.

DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

Exergy wrote:DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

25% of the time on 3d6? Howd that work out? I havent run the math myself...anyone care to show me?

Since MSS and challenges happen at the same time, and the order is up to whoevers turn it is, get the charge and choose challenge then MSS. If you bring a beast enough CC ch you should wipe the Lord before MSS.

60mm wrote:Since MSS and challenges happen at the same time, and the order is up to whoevers turn it is, get the charge and choose challenge then MSS. If you bring a beast enough CC ch you should wipe the Lord before MSS.

You're advocating very bad strategy here. I assume you've completely misunderstood the Challenge rules and think that it the challenge is somehow fought at the start of the fight sub-phase. It doesn't work like that.

Your scenario means that the Lord is only B2B with the challenging model -> 50+% chance that your challenger will hit himself and after that Lord will use the best non-unique CC weapon in the game and plonk you in the head with Warscythe.

No, the proper way is to have a squad with you when you charge, have only expendable models go into B2B with the Necron Lord while making sure your challenger doesn't get into B2B. Then decide to resolve MSS first so that it hits something expendable while you challenge the Lord and have one player turn of combat without having to fear MSS.

Weight of numbers seems to be my best tactic, covering the lord with enough hurty stuff that it will end in him dying for sure, but its hard to get an army moving around so coherently with other threats taking tolls before I've even looked at the lord.

Shake Zoola wrote:

Exergy wrote:DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

25% of the time on 3d6? Howd that work out? I havent run the math myself...anyone care to show me?

I think he might have thought that cos the chance to pass is 50% initially, rerolling it might half that, but It doesn't really work all that well.

Jayden63 wrote:There are a few things that might help.
4 - Some character (SM I believe) can auto pass LD checks.

I don't know about the ruling on this, but as far as I'm aware you have to take the test always, If fearless characters have to take the test I don't see how a "pass test always" character could be so easily exempt, and if so, I'm boned cos chaos has no such thing I'm certain.

The lord is usually in a barge, I have shot the barge down successfully a bunch of times, then shot frantically at the lord with 2 squads of marines with meltas and only grab a single wound off him more times than my marines should admit, and then he's free to charge me.

The biggest problem is now my princes have lost so much fo their effectiveness against even the basic warrior squads. He has an underlord in every warrior squad, if I charge it, I get shackled and hurt myself, if I pass the test, I'm still stuck in combat and will only kill one thing that turn, as oppossed to flaying 3-5 warriors in a single swipe.

omgitsduane wrote:Weight of numbers seems to be my best tactic, covering the lord with enough hurty stuff that it will end in him dying for sure, but its hard to get an army moving around so coherently with other threats taking tolls before I've even looked at the lord.

Shake Zoola wrote:

Exergy wrote:DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

25% of the time on 3d6? Howd that work out? I havent run the math myself...anyone care to show me?

I think he might have thought that cos the chance to pass is 50% initially, rerolling it might half that, but It doesn't really work all that well.

Jayden63 wrote:There are a few things that might help.
4 - Some character (SM I believe) can auto pass LD checks.

I don't know about the ruling on this, but as far as I'm aware you have to take the test always, If fearless characters have to take the test I don't see how a "pass test always" character could be so easily exempt, and if so, I'm boned cos chaos has no such thing I'm certain.

Fearless still take it because fearless models don't have to take morale tests. Morale test =/= leadership test.

If Calgar does indeed automatically pass LEADERSHIP tests, then he is not affected by it.

omgitsduane wrote:Anyone have any way of defeating or avoiding MSS besides not just staying out of combat. I keep hearing that taking a sargent with nothing on him, but then when I get charged by anything from another army I'm screwed. So is there a loophole or any way around getting the least damage from it?

Not sure why anyone would suggest that since MSS happens before all that. Only real way to try counter it is to manuver so that when you charge the only model that touches the Lord before pile-in is a model that won't really hurt your own unit. And don't give the Lord too much combat power to use against you, just enough to take him on. For instance, what I found work well is Grey Knight Strike Squads. Charge in such a way that only the Psycannon is touching at the start of combat, as he is unlikely to damage your squad much, then before the Lord makes his attacks you get to strike with all your swords and you can hopefully Force Weapon him to death. Of course that was much easier when he didn't get his 2+ save against them.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Not sure why anyone would suggest that since MSS happens before all that. Only real way to try counter it is to manuver so that when you charge the only model that touches the Lord before pile-in is a model that won't really hurt your own unit. And don't give the Lord too much combat power to use against you, just enough to take him on. For instance, what I found work well is Grey Knight Strike Squads. Charge in such a way that only the Psycannon is touching at the start of combat, as he is unlikely to damage your squad much, then before the Lord makes his attacks you get to strike with all your swords and you can hopefully Force Weapon him to death. Of course that was much easier when he didn't get his 2+ save against them.

MSS and Challenges both happen at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Because they occur simultaneously, the player whose turn it is gets to choose the order in which they are resolved. Thus, if the Necron player does the charging, he can choose to resolve the challenge first, allowing the MSS to trigger on the challengee.

One of the better ways to avoid this, at least for a turn, is to position your Sergeant far enough back that he is not engaged at the start of the combat. Challenges can only be issued if there is an engaged enemy character at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Your Sergeant will start the combat unengaged, and then a 3" Pile In at his Initiative step will still let him get engaged and strike. On the following turn, you get to choose the order, so if he issues a challenge you won't need to worry about MSS.

Or, if you're C:SM, you can just Combat Tactics out and rapid fire them.

Shake Zoola wrote:

Exergy wrote:DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

25% of the time on 3d6? Howd that work out? I havent run the math myself...anyone care to show me?

I think he might have thought that cos the chance to pass is 50% initially, rerolling it might half that, but It doesn't really work all that well

Actually, it works exactly that well.

Edit:quote fail

9/18=50% if you roll once
If you can reroll:
9/18+((9/18)*(9/18))=75%

I find it best just to ignore the MSS lord. He has very little impact on close combat. With low initiative and low weapon skill he is only going to add one or two kills to the necron tally, and any assault squad should more than make up for that killing warriors/immortals. You should easily sweep the squad, lord or not.

If he is in a small unit or alone just shoot.

Kevlar wrote:I find it best just to ignore the MSS lord. He has very little impact on close combat. With low initiative and low weapon skill he is only going to add one or two kills to the necron tally, and any assault squad should more than make up for that killing warriors/immortals. You should easily sweep the squad, lord or not.

If he is in a small unit or alone just shoot.

He doesn't do either though, he goes on a barge and gets right in your face.

Calgar doesn't auto pass ld tests, only moral.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevlar wrote:I find it best just to ignore the MSS lord. He has very little impact on close combat. With low initiative and low weapon skill he is only going to add one or two kills to the necron tally, and any assault squad should more than make up for that killing warriors/immortals. You should easily sweep the squad, lord or not.

If he is in a small unit or alone just shoot.

He doesn't do either though, he goes on a barge and gets right in your face.

If he is on a barge he is dead turn 1.

Kevlar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevlar wrote:I find it best just to ignore the MSS lord. He has very little impact on close combat. With low initiative and low weapon skill he is only going to add one or two kills to the necron tally, and any assault squad should more than make up for that killing warriors/immortals. You should easily sweep the squad, lord or not.

If he is in a small unit or alone just shoot.

He doesn't do either though, he goes on a barge and gets right in your face.

If he is on a barge he is dead turn 1.

Night Fighting, Jink, AV13 and the ability to soak hull point damage with Wounds all have something to say about that. If the Necron player goes first, flat-out with Night Fighting ensures a 4+ to 2+ cover save, and if the Necron player goes second, LOS blocking terrain and Night Fighting ensure a similar saving throw.

tedurur wrote:

Shake Zoola wrote:

Exergy wrote:DE - "Gruesome Trophy Rack" allows you to reroll any leadership test, meaning Ld10 only fails 25% of the time. DE cant really take any killy characters anymore but at least you wont hit yourself. Works on allied Eldar as well.

25% of the time on 3d6? Howd that work out? I havent run the math myself...anyone care to show me?

I think he might have thought that cos the chance to pass is 50% initially, rerolling it might half that, but It doesn't really work all that well

Actually, it works exactly that well.

Edit:quote fail

yes that is where I was going. LD 10 fails 50% of the time. With the reroll it fails 25% of the time.

There is a small lord in every warrior squad, and the lords in barges will usually hop out to help the wraiths when they get into combat, basically he has a lord anywhere he wants to. And even throwing all I have at a squad of wraiths, I won't knock em out. Then add a lord. I don't know how anyone could assume that the lord in a barge is as good as dead turn one.

Morale tests use the leadership score, but are not leadership tests. Fearless models can still get MSS'ed.
Accepting a challenge moves those two models into base to base... and the'll only be in base to base with each other (as per the challenge rules). So hiding your character at the back of your unit doesn't work.
Rerolling leadership works.
Being the active player on the first turn of assault (so you can choose MSS to go off on somone before the challenge) works for turn #1.

Anpu-adom wrote:So hiding your character at the back of your unit doesn't work.

Minor nitpick - this does work, as long as your character is not engaged at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Unengaged characters cannot issue or accept challenges.

Roboute wrote:

Kevlar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Kevlar wrote:I find it best just to ignore the MSS lord. He has very little impact on close combat. With low initiative and low weapon skill he is only going to add one or two kills to the necron tally, and any assault squad should more than make up for that killing warriors/immortals. You should easily sweep the squad, lord or not.

If he is in a small unit or alone just shoot.

He doesn't do either though, he goes on a barge and gets right in your face.

If he is on a barge he is dead turn 1.

Night Fighting, Jink, AV13 and the ability to soak hull point damage with Wounds all have something to say about that. If the Necron player goes first, flat-out with Night Fighting ensures a 4+ to 2+ cover save, and if the Necron player goes second, LOS blocking terrain and Night Fighting ensure a similar saving throw.

Night fight is useless in 6th, get a rhino within 36 inches and he's dead.

Kevlar wrote:
Night fight is useless in 6th, get a rhino within 36 inches and he's dead.

Doesn't work. Your Rhino needs to be within 24" (SB Range) or have HK Missile for you to use Searchlight, because if no weapon is in range, you must choose different target.

Roboute wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:So hiding your character at the back of your unit doesn't work.

Minor nitpick - this does work, as long as your character is not engaged at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Unengaged characters cannot issue or accept challenges.

Characters are not separate from their units in 6th. If I've successfully charged your unit, then your character is engaged. Unless I'm missing something in the rulebook.

Anpu-adom wrote:

Roboute wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:So hiding your character at the back of your unit doesn't work.

Minor nitpick - this does work, as long as your character is not engaged at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Unengaged characters cannot issue or accept challenges.

Characters are not separate from their units in 6th. If I've successfully charged your unit, then your character is engaged. Unless I'm missing something in the rulebook.

You are. Engaged is defined on a model-by-model basis (BTB or w/in 2" of a friendly model in BTB), while the UNIT is locked in combat if a single model is engaged.

Thanks. I'll have to keep that in mind!

Luide wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
Night fight is useless in 6th, get a rhino within 36 inches and he's dead.

Doesn't work. Your Rhino needs to be within 24" (SB Range) or have HK Missile for you to use Searchlight, because if no weapon is in range, you must choose different target.

Mine get by fine with their havoc launchers.

Kevlar wrote:
Night fight is useless in 6th, get a rhino within 36 inches and he's dead.

Even with just a 5++ Jink save and AV13, it's pretty hard to kill a freaking CCB. Glances do basically nothing, as the Lord can take a wound to save a Hull Point. You have to blow it up via a pen.

Just to establish a baseline, a BS4 Lascannon has a 14.8% chance to penetrate, and thus a 7.4% chance to kill the damn thing. Once you get one pen through, it's a lot easier, but remember that you're probably facing two, plus you also might have to deal with 15 or so Wraiths.

Janthkin wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:

Roboute wrote:

Anpu-adom wrote:So hiding your character at the back of your unit doesn't work.

Minor nitpick - this does work, as long as your character is not engaged at the start of the Fight sub-phase. Unengaged characters cannot issue or accept challenges.

Characters are not separate from their units in 6th. If I've successfully charged your unit, then your character is engaged. Unless I'm missing something in the rulebook.

You are. Engaged is defined on a model-by-model basis (BTB or w/in 2" of a friendly model in BTB), while the UNIT is locked in combat if a single model is engaged.

So what is being said here, is that he couldn't offer a challenge or accept one if he isn't engaged when the fighting begins?

We had a game where My prince charged a warrior at the front of the pack, and the minilord was just behind him, but clearly not in contact with that one, and the rulebook says pile in moves are done at initiative step then that model gets to fight accordingly. If my prince gets to strike first (which he does) and wipes the warriors and the lord (being the next closest model) he's safe or am I missing something?

And on the above point, if he tries to challenge me, he cannot because that lord isn't actually engaged with any models anyway?