New Deathmark Stats for friendly games

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**Kevin949**

IHateNids wrote:No, its a sniper. you dont get short range snipers outside of 40k logic.

You know I was commenting on the OP's idea, right? Not on the stats the guy three above me put up.

**McNinja**

chrisrawr wrote:I'm assuming it's a dualbase like the ehavy weapons team. Why does it get S/T4? BS7 is beyond normal human prowess, and also kind of unnecessary.

The problem with making a model like this cost - and do - so much is that when it dies, you're left feeling a little bummed. If it doesn't, it either doesn't make up its points, or goes overboard on the OP end.

Version B is really good for dedicated sniper units, actually. Roll a 6, chance to get good stuff!

Also, in regard to the preamble: The Armourbane rule and the Turbopen both represent the Sniper's ability to hit a weak spot in such a way as you described - remember that in 40K, often the engine is exposed and the walls unangled. We have AM rifles that can go through an angled tankwall and bounce around inside, shattering and killing the crew. Unangled tankwalls shouldn't be much of a problem.

Well, S/T4 because they're Space Marines. It could easily be S/T3 for IG.

BS7 actually represents both models working together, which is why it drops to BS5 when one is killed. Two wounds, two guys. Now, I don't really see why a dedicated sniper by himself is unable to achieve BS7, since Space Marines have access to superior training, cybernetic enhancements, and equipment. While Vindicares have better stuff, I see no reason why a SM who dedicates his life as a Battle Brother to sniping would be less skilled than a Vindicare who has done the same thing, but with a harsher teacher.

**DarknessEternal**

McNinja wrote: I see no reason why a SM who dedicates his life as a Battle Brother to sniping

Space Marines do not have the opportunity to do so. Their 15 minutes of free time a day isn't really enough to become a master sniper.

**McNinja**

DarknessEternal wrote:
McNinja wrote: I see no reason why a SM who dedicates his life as a Battle Brother to sniping

Space Marines do not have the opportunity to do so. Their 15 minutes of free time a day isn't really enough to become a master sniper.

Space Marines spend plenty of time doing drills and training, and that includes on the firing range. They may not have the time to dedicate every second of their time to sniper training, but I would think they have the capacity to become Snipers. Handing out sniper rifles to relatively untrained Scouts is rather dumb when you can have full-fledged marines fill that same role.

**DarknessEternal**

You can have full-fledged marines driving Leman Russes too, but that's a considerable waste of their resources. If the Imperium absolutely needs something sniped, they have snipers for that.

**McNinja**

DarknessEternal wrote:You can have full-fledged marines driving Leman Russes too, but that's a considerable waste of their resources. If the Imperium absolutely needs something sniped, they have snipers for that.

What do Space Marines driving Leman Russes have to do with... anything? And yeah. I know. They suck. Vindicares cannot be everywhere Space Marines deploy. Handing out awful AP6 weapons to BS3 Scouts is fething dumb. We don't hand out Cheytac Interventions to new Marines right out of basic, they have to go through a several month-long school in order to be a sniper, which is what I'm suggesting, except for Space Marines. Is there a problem with this?

**chrisrawr**

To be fair Kevin, Fire Warriors are valued at 7 points and come in at 10. These are being proposed at 23. 18" still isn't great; storm bolters are still better against a range of opponents from 19-24"

**IHateNids**

Kevin949 wrote:
IHateNids wrote:No, its a sniper. you dont get short range snipers outside of 40k logic.

You know I was commenting on the OP's idea, right? Not on the stats the guy three above me put up.

Erm, no, I didnt

But anyway, I think that something should be along the lines of R:60" S:X(3+) AP:3 Pinning, Heavy 1 to even qualify as a sniper.

**Kevin949**

chrisrawr wrote:To be fair Kevin, Fire Warriors are valued at 7 points and come in at 10. These are being proposed at 23. 18" still isn't great; storm bolters are still better against a range of opponents from 19-24"

I hear ya, but you have to factor in all the other things they have over fire warriors. Better stats, can get back from dead, special rules...all those play into the point cost.

That said, I do wish deathmarks had a longer range. 24" is pathetic for a "sniper" unit.

**chrisrawr**

Statline and special rules worth 18 points (GH is 15, minus bolter, -2i, +2ld, -2CCW, +1BS, +wbb, -atsknf, -options), gun worth 5

Though with mcninja's b proposal, gun worth 10ish

**DarknessEternal**

McNinja wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:You can have full-fledged marines driving Leman Russes too, but that's a considerable waste of their resources. If the Imperium absolutely needs something sniped, they have snipers for that.
What do Space Marines driving Leman Russes have to do with... anything? And yeah. I know. They suck. Vindicares cannot be everywhere Space Marines deploy. Handing out awful AP6 weapons to BS3 Scouts is fething dumb. We don't hand out Cheytac Interventions to new Marines right out of basic, they have to go through a several month-long school in order to be a sniper, which is what I'm suggesting, except for Space Marines. Is there a problem with this?

Yes, sniping isn't inside Marines' combat doctrine. The combats they are committed to either don't require such a thing, or would be pointless in the same. Marines are shock troops. They do not encompass every facet of warfare.

**chrisrawr**

For once, I agree with DE on this.

**McNinja**

No, they are Special Forces. While the vast majority of SM Chapters operate like Super - IG Stormtroopers, Space Marines have the capability to cover every facet of warfare, and just because many chapters limit themselves to a certain style of war does not by any means dictate the entirety of Space Marine combat doctrine, nor does it disallow other options.