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Jihallah wrote:My drop pod dreadnoughts and fast mobile heavy flamers enjoy the presence of large guardian blobs on the field.

Yeah, but I bet they don't like the BL, EML Wraithlords and Avatar that are there with them. I have yet to have a Dread do anything to my guardians. I don't see the CC dreads much, just the riflemen. And those riflemen don't exactly like it when a Warlock starts slicing them up with his witchblade.

Because they understand the above principle well Whilst I've always liked guardians, I gotta say heavy flamers and bolters catching them out of cover is deadly.

Of course. Most anything will kill them outside of cover. So they hug cover, or occasionally bring it themselves (conceal). But the same is generally true of all eldar infantry apart from the few 3+ save units.

Jihallah wrote:My drop pod dreadnoughts and fast mobile heavy flamers enjoy the presence of large guardian blobs on the field.

Arschbombe wrote:In one game in a tournament in May I had an opponent who shot at my Guardians first. It was a little alarming because I thought he had figured it out. Kill my Guardians and I'm looking at a draw at best.

Because they understand the above principle well Whilst I've always liked guardians, I gotta say heavy flamers and bolters catching them out of cover is deadly.

Obviously there are many things that are really good at killing guardians. They die to anytihng really. Point being, guardians are really hurting you. My 10 wraithguard will be. So shooting at them is supposed to seem not really worth it when you are getting shredded by the wraithguard/ wraithlord/ avatar standing by.

And if you are close enough to heavy flame, then im close enough to fire back. Dread front armour they cant hurt but they can shoot the rear if posible. The warlcok standing with them with his singing spear can hurt it pretty bad, as well as charge it and hurt more.

Everything in the game has a counter. So it comes down to how you use your units. And with eldar, it comes down to how you support your units with others.

So far with my Eldar, just friendly games at 2k pts, I run 3x 15 guardians with SL, 2x 8 pathfinders, and 5 gjb w/cannon.

I'm sitting at 8:11 right now, mainly due to those guardians.
just in 6th, these guys have wiped, 9 PAGK squads, 3 GKT squads, more Sobs than I can count, a Logan star, and lots of standard marines.

People just don't think about what they can really do, and severely underestimate them. If you walk a squad into the 12" range, you have a hell of a lot of shots pouring into you, I'll take weight of fire over special weapons anyday, always have.

In short, don't count out the little guys, they'll cut you off at the knees!

Razgriz22 wrote:
Obviously there are many things that are really good at killing guardians. They die to anytihng really. Point being, guardians are really hurting you. My 10 wraithguard will be. So shooting at them is supposed to seem not really worth it when you are getting shredded by the wraithguard/ wraithlord/ avatar standing by.

Doesn't matter. There are going to be units in the enemy army that are invariably only useful at killing other "average" troops, like Tactical Marines. If they have the choice between shooting Wraithguard and Guardians, a smart player picks the Guardians. A Tac Marine squad has a reasonable chance of killing any sized Guardian unit with one turn of shooting (thanks to lackluster Morale).

Between AV-having War Walkers and tanks and impossible to draw LoS to jetbikes and harlequins, most of what Eldar put on the table that can be shot by other base infantry is their own terrible Troops. They're going to get shot at simply because the other infantry killing guys have nothing else to shoot at.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:
Obviously there are many things that are really good at killing guardians. They die to anytihng really. Point being, guardians are really hurting you. My 10 wraithguard will be. So shooting at them is supposed to seem not really worth it when you are getting shredded by the wraithguard/ wraithlord/ avatar standing by.

Doesn't matter. There are going to be units in the enemy army that are invariably only useful at killing other "average" troops, like Tactical Marines. If they have the choice between shooting Wraithguard and Guardians, a smart player picks the Guardians. A Tac Marine squad has a reasonable chance of killing any sized Guardian unit with one turn of shooting (thanks to lackluster Morale).

Between AV-having War Walkers and tanks and impossible to draw LoS to jetbikes and harlequins, most of what Eldar put on the table that can be shot by other base infantry is their own terrible Troops. They're going to get shot at simply because the other infantry killing guys have nothing else to shoot at.

1. Avatar. Guardians are running no where.

2. People who shoot at guardians with infantry weapons deal with a 5+ cover save conceal at minumum. If I know my guardians are in range for a rapid fire shot, I will obviously fortune them the turn prior. 5+ re-roll. Not bad.

If they can rapid fire my guardians, My guardians can also double tap back. Its just smart play to make sure you get the double shot off first. Is it doable everytime? no.

I still think people are looking at the stats and going well obviously XYZ is better. Or XYZ can easily shoot and kill them. You CAN NOT judge guardians but those methods. You just cant.

20 Bodies for 8 points a piece. Quite simple. They score. They have a heavy weapon. The bog stuff down. They are dangerous to move around or through due to high volume of fire. They ARE NOT marines. They dont go toe to toe with Marines. They arent supposed to. Look at them from another view point please.

In any other army guardians are probably not usable. But we as Eldar dont really have many options. So thats why they are valuable to us.

Well actually eldar now have 5 viable troops options if played right. The problem is I think they all have diminishing returns, and do best when not overly spammed.

Razgriz22 wrote:
1. Avatar. Guardians are running no where.

I know, right? It's so awesome. I won a tourney game against DoA BA because of this. The guy dropped in my face and made a big multi assault with his vanguard. He wiped my pathfinders and got stuck in against the guardians and dire avengers. He wanted to break me immediately. They held because of the Avatar who then waded in to turn the tide (along with the wraithlords.

I still think people are looking at the stats and going well obviously XYZ is better. Or XYZ can easily shoot and kill them. You CAN NOT judge guardians but those methods. You just cant.

I think it's this too. I see this with footdar. A lot of people just can't wrap their heads around how an army of T3 5+ infantry survives past turn 2. On paper it doesn't look strong, but it can really work. I think it's a zen thing. Some people just don't get it.

Razgriz22 wrote:[Obviously there are many things that are really good at killing guardians. They die to anytihng really. Point being, guardians are really hurting you. My 10 wraithguard will be. So shooting at them is supposed to seem not really worth it when you are getting shredded by the wraithguard/ wraithlord/ avatar standing by.

Yes, but you're not winning objectives games with no troops fast cheap heavy flamers or a midgame pod plan can sort it out easily. Sure, your going to blow my dread/speeder/monkey with a flamethrower if a run in on the first turn, but If you can't win without troops, smashing my throwaway dread/speeder/purplemonkeydishwasher doesn't bother me too much
Of course, If I don't have a suicidal unit the trade off becomes more balanced, but of course this is a problem say Rangers suffer from as well. More so I'd say- smaller squad, more expensive per model, dies just the same.

Razgriz22 wrote:
1. Avatar. Guardians are running no where.

2. People who shoot at guardians with infantry weapons deal with a 5+ cover save conceal at minumum. If I know my guardians are in range for a rapid fire shot, I will obviously fortune them the turn prior. 5+ re-roll. Not bad.

So you spent 300+ points to make one unit of Guardians slightly less difficult to kill than the game's generic Troop (which is Marines, let's face it), instead of one of your more useful units?

Jihallah wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:[Obviously there are many things that are really good at killing guardians. They die to anytihng really. Point being, guardians are really hurting you. My 10 wraithguard will be. So shooting at them is supposed to seem not really worth it when you are getting shredded by the wraithguard/ wraithlord/ avatar standing by.

Yes, but you're not winning objectives games with no troops fast cheap heavy flamers or a midgame pod plan can sort it out easily. Sure, your going to blow my dread/speeder/monkey with a flamethrower if a run in on the first turn, but If you can't win without troops, smashing my throwaway dread/speeder/purplemonkeydishwasher doesn't bother me too much
Of course, If I don't have a suicidal unit the trade off becomes more balanced, but of course this is a problem say Rangers suffer from as well. More so I'd say- smaller squad, more expensive per model, dies just the same.

Maybe im just used to my eldar dying to everythinggggg. So I just dont get afraid of that stuff. They die, I move on lol. I just try to play as smart as possible. 90% of the time, When I play smart, I win games. When I make mistakes, I lose games.

So as long as i take a balanced list, It comes down to te choices myself and my opposing commander make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarknessEternal wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:
1. Avatar. Guardians are running no where.

2. People who shoot at guardians with infantry weapons deal with a 5+ cover save conceal at minumum. If I know my guardians are in range for a rapid fire shot, I will obviously fortune them the turn prior. 5+ re-roll. Not bad.

So you spent 300+ points to make one unit of Guardians slightly less difficult to kill than the game's generic Troop (which is Marines, let's face it), instead of one of your more useful units?

I would already be spending points on the avatar and Eldrad as it is....So I dont see the problem. What eldar army WOULDNT take a farseer or eldrad. I do include a warlock with conceal with the guardians if I know they will be in the open. But that is only 40 points.

The Avatar isnt bought t "just give one squad of guardians fearless" He is a powerhouse in his own right. He gives EVERYone fearless near him.

You are asking why i spent good points on 2 hq's i would already take no matter what. So that doesnt makes sense.

DarknessEternal
I can't speak directly for Razgriz22, but in my case Fortune goes where it's needed. If I run guardians to shoot from cover they won't be there alone and they won't need fortune every turn. Turns when they don't need it I can cast on Walkers, Rangers or a Falcon.

As for the Avatar, he isn't there just for the Guardians. There are probably more squads of them anyway. All Eldar benefit from his fearlessness. And he provides target distraction, melta and acts as a melee beat stick. All of this goes to the elusive Eldar synergy. The Avatar and a Farseer babysitting Guardians in the backfield would indeed be ridiculous. The Avatar, Eldrad, Guardians, Wraithguard, Harlequins and 3 Wraithlords advancing into enemy territory is a different story altogether.

A few 10 man squds with your heavy weapon of choice and you have a great unit that can just sit back in terrain and shoot at armor all day. With the Eldar army you really have to play off of each units strengths and weaknesses. If you want to keep your gaurdians alive alittle longer, throw in a squad of harlequins with harlequin kisses as a counter attack unit and watch your gaurdians stay alive a lot longer. It really comes down to knowing what and how to use your units.

Off topic but I strongly recommend a Night Spinner also(favorite tank in the game).

As a SM player who happens to play against Eldar all the time, I must say, guardians can be quite the problem to play against.

Since 2/3 of the games are objective based, they already have the leg up on numbers at 20 models to my 10 for a troop choice. Granted, math-wise this may not mean much BUT, with the whole Night Fighting rules being changed and the fact that most players put guardians in ruins with everything else, they're getting 3+ or 4+ saves most games for possibly a turn or more. So that means I have to shoot MORE at them to clear them out.

Then we have the fact that they really don't do much. Eldar players go "Bah, they can't do much, why take them?" And that's the thing, so does every other player out there. They get ignored, because they don't do much. Everyone else is trying to deal with wraithguard, avatars, jetbike seer councils......you name it. The last thing on their mind is the blob of guys why can't shoot at their army halfway across the board. Of course an experienced player will gun straight for them, but then what? I'm getting curb stomped by an avatar that, pretty much without assault termies I have little chance of killing, or getting gunned down by wraithguard hunting me from the other side of the board.

They're not amazing by themselves no. But combined with the fact that they AREN'T a big threat and the fact that they can sit somewhere pretty much all day and be ok, makes them pretty viable.

scrabblez wrote:As a SM player who happens to play against Eldar all the time, I must say, guardians can be quite the problem to play against.

Since 2/3 of the games are objective based, they already have the leg up on numbers at 20 models to my 10 for a troop choice. Granted, math-wise this may not mean much BUT, with the whole Night Fighting rules being changed and the fact that most players put guardians in ruins with everything else, they're getting 3+ or 4+ saves most games for possibly a turn or more. So that means I have to shoot MORE at them to clear them out.

Then we have the fact that they really don't do much. Eldar players go "Bah, they can't do much, why take them?" And that's the thing, so does every other player out there. They get ignored, because they don't do much. Everyone else is trying to deal with wraithguard, avatars, jetbike seer councils......you name it. The last thing on their mind is the blob of guys why can't shoot at their army halfway across the board. Of course an experienced player will gun straight for them, but then what? I'm getting curb stomped by an avatar that, pretty much without assault termies I have little chance of killing, or getting gunned down by wraithguard hunting me from the other side of the board.

They're not amazing by themselves no. But combined with the fact that they AREN'T a big threat and the fact that they can sit somewhere pretty much all day and be ok, makes them pretty viable.

Does this happen to you often :-P

Razgriz22 wrote:

scrabblez wrote:As a SM player who happens to play against Eldar all the time, I must say, guardians can be quite the problem to play against.

Since 2/3 of the games are objective based, they already have the leg up on numbers at 20 models to my 10 for a troop choice. Granted, math-wise this may not mean much BUT, with the whole Night Fighting rules being changed and the fact that most players put guardians in ruins with everything else, they're getting 3+ or 4+ saves most games for possibly a turn or more. So that means I have to shoot MORE at them to clear them out.

Then we have the fact that they really don't do much. Eldar players go "Bah, they can't do much, why take them?" And that's the thing, so does every other player out there. They get ignored, because they don't do much. Everyone else is trying to deal with wraithguard, avatars, jetbike seer councils......you name it. The last thing on their mind is the blob of guys why can't shoot at their army halfway across the board. Of course an experienced player will gun straight for them, but then what? I'm getting curb stomped by an avatar that, pretty much without assault termies I have little chance of killing, or getting gunned down by wraithguard hunting me from the other side of the board.

They're not amazing by themselves no. But combined with the fact that they AREN'T a big threat and the fact that they can sit somewhere pretty much all day and be ok, makes them pretty viable.

Does this happen to you often :-P

Every weekend or so...

scrabblez wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

scrabblez wrote:As a SM player who happens to play against Eldar all the time, I must say, guardians can be quite the problem to play against.

Since 2/3 of the games are objective based, they already have the leg up on numbers at 20 models to my 10 for a troop choice. Granted, math-wise this may not mean much BUT, with the whole Night Fighting rules being changed and the fact that most players put guardians in ruins with everything else, they're getting 3+ or 4+ saves most games for possibly a turn or more. So that means I have to shoot MORE at them to clear them out.

Then we have the fact that they really don't do much. Eldar players go "Bah, they can't do much, why take them?" And that's the thing, so does every other player out there. They get ignored, because they don't do much. Everyone else is trying to deal with wraithguard, avatars, jetbike seer councils......you name it. The last thing on their mind is the blob of guys why can't shoot at their army halfway across the board. Of course an experienced player will gun straight for them, but then what? I'm getting curb stomped by an avatar that, pretty much without assault termies I have little chance of killing, or getting gunned down by wraithguard hunting me from the other side of the board.

They're not amazing by themselves no. But combined with the fact that they AREN'T a big threat and the fact that they can sit somewhere pretty much all day and be ok, makes them pretty viable.

Does this happen to you often :-P

Every weekend or so...

This is why many players in Magic:the Gathering used to pack a 1/1 Flyer in their decks. it was so cheap and small, no one wanted to waste a kill card on it. It's kinda like Reverse target saturation. You put a bad target so it can keep doing damage when good targets are more then capable of absorbing fire.

Tagboard Wizard wrote:

scrabblez wrote:

Razgriz22 wrote:

scrabblez wrote:As a SM player who happens to play against Eldar all the time, I must say, guardians can be quite the problem to play against.

Since 2/3 of the games are objective based, they already have the leg up on numbers at 20 models to my 10 for a troop choice. Granted, math-wise this may not mean much BUT, with the whole Night Fighting rules being changed and the fact that most players put guardians in ruins with everything else, they're getting 3+ or 4+ saves most games for possibly a turn or more. So that means I have to shoot MORE at them to clear them out.

Then we have the fact that they really don't do much. Eldar players go "Bah, they can't do much, why take them?" And that's the thing, so does every other player out there. They get ignored, because they don't do much. Everyone else is trying to deal with wraithguard, avatars, jetbike seer councils......you name it. The last thing on their mind is the blob of guys why can't shoot at their army halfway across the board. Of course an experienced player will gun straight for them, but then what? I'm getting curb stomped by an avatar that, pretty much without assault termies I have little chance of killing, or getting gunned down by wraithguard hunting me from the other side of the board.

They're not amazing by themselves no. But combined with the fact that they AREN'T a big threat and the fact that they can sit somewhere pretty much all day and be ok, makes them pretty viable.

Does this happen to you often :-P

Every weekend or so...

This is why many players in Magic:the Gathering used to pack a 1/1 Flyer in their decks. it was so cheap and small, no one wanted to waste a kill card on it. It's kinda like Reverse target saturation. You put a bad target so it can keep doing damage when good targets are more then capable of absorbing fire.

I really like this explanation.