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What personally made me re think my approach to the nids is instead of thinking of the hive mind as a slavering beast trying to devour the galaxy think of it as a loving mother just trying to feed its children and help them grow and make them stronger and evolce them to be her personal children and friends and doesentt realize the pain it inflicts on others

Cheese that is... slightly disturbing in some way I can't quite identify

Hey Sandant, did you read the Ender series?

Ailaros wrote:Is it really just people who fell in love with Jurassic Park when they were younger and eventually decided to play 40k?

i was playing my genestealer cult long before Critchton even wrote Jurassic Park and even longer before they made a movie out of it. The early tyranid models were gaaak. Now the model line looks very interesting to me. Either way I like 'nids, but don't see the point in trying to rationalize my interest in them to someone who obviously thinks they are awful despite the claim at the end of his starting post that he really is being open minded about it. All of your denigrating comments about 'nids and their players in your post are not absolved by saying you are really open minded, because what you posted makes it pretty darn clear you are not open minded. With that said I really don't care if you like them or not and am not going to waste time proving to you that an army you dislike is worth playing. Play them or don't I really don't care.

Skriker

As a hoard army I find them fun. I like the aesthetic that they live to further the hoard and the hoard is served by feeding. Conflict brings about change and they improve by conflict.

In the game I love the synergy that is forced on you by hive mind. 1000 fleshborers - no problem they are going to lurk a lot and will break easily. Have a hive tyrant and you will be swarmed!

I originally thought that bugs got nerfed heavily in 6th edition but I saw the power of them in a tournament last week. 2 flying hive tyrants provided the air cover necessary. A single tervigon provided the hoard. Between zoanthropes, tyrants and tervigons, he had something like 14 psychic powers available to him and he switched most for biomancy.
Needless to say he won the tournament!

I took a 3 tervigon list against a deathwing army and the terminators were eventually swamped by hoards of fleshgaunts. They have a number of ways to play too. From a genestealer incursion, a hoard, to the big bug assault.

(3 carnifexes in a group backed up by a tervigon casting catalyst and perhaps a venomthrope with regen can be quite intimidating...)

Bottom line bugs are fun definitely in a different way that a Grey Knight or Deathwing army but nonetheless fun as a change of pace.

I like nids I think partly because they do resemble dinosaurs, and for some reason I find them simply adorable. I'm a big fan of the current models, especially the Lictor in all its Lovecraftian glory.

Fluffwise... The codices were written (4th &5th edition anyway) from the point of view of the imperium, meaning we the players know as much about the tyranids as they do. I've never been terribly sold on the idea that these are mindless slobbering beasts existing just to consume. They do seem to have some form of sentience, that creatures like the swarmlord can retain memories from previous battles throughout every 'birth' it is given is incredibly interesting given that we know that after every battle all the nids are digested back into goo. The fact that they know enough to avoid tombworlds, and will go out of their way to do so, I find interesting as well. And their goal, they aren't so much eating for the sake of eating. Their goal is to be the most evolutionary perfect being, and with each world consumed does the hive obtain countless new dna information that the hive then decides where to evolve its forces from there. I do like the idea that the hive mind is a mother out there wanting to be sure her children are fed... Though just what is it that's being fed if it isn't the creatures we know of?


I'm also fond of their sheer scale. If I recall correctly a standard gaunt is about the length of two family sedans. A gaunt, mind you! Just imagining how massive a fex or tyrant is is just terrifying. And then you just know there are creatures even more massive than them. And then you imagine thousands and thousands of these things. It's awe inspiring and mind blowing, personally.


That said, if you don't like them you don't like them. I know I wouldn't want to force anyone to play an army they don't enjoy playing. I'm not a particularly great player, and I chose a rather tricky army to stick with that has many nuances I haven't quite grasped yet, but I'm going to keep playing them because I really like them.

Rae Ruen wrote:I'm also fond of their sheer scale. If I recall correctly a standard gaunt is about the length of two family sedans. A gaunt, mind you! Just imagining how massive a fex or tyrant is is just terrifying. And then you just know there are creatures even more massive than them. And then you imagine thousands and thousands of these things. It's awe inspiring and mind blowing, personally.

Err, no. Gaunts are about the size of a dog.

What that other dude said " Starship Troopers".

Playing something which is mostly completley different to most other armies.

Playing Nids is hard, it's not a forgiving army.

You can paint your dudes how ever you see fit in what ever colour scheme you wish.

It's nice to not be part of the SM or equivilant gang and play something unique/different.

Ailaros wrote:If you instinctually fear it. I instinctually fear a thousand spiders, I don't instinctually fear this:

A 20 foot tall, slavering monster covered in chitin and spitting death? You don't instinctively fear that?

Are you kidding?

Tyranids always felt pretty pointless and boring to me as did necrons, at least before the new dex.

"Oh they are just so god damn evil you guys don't even understand it. They HATE ALL LIFE."

How boring can you get.

However, there is one concrete thing that really turns me on about nids, and that's the termagant illustration on p39 in the 5e codex. He actually looks like just an alien grunt. He's got his gun that fires crystal spikes and he looks like he looked around before stepping up on that stone and he even looks a little happy.

It always makes me think of them more like the goofy evil cartoon aliens that never manage to get it right, and then I want to start an IG army with termagants in hats and helmets.

The tyranids have always appealed to me because I like the amorality they bring. The Hive Mind is just an animal. None of it is personal. It isn't evil. It isn't malicious. It just knows it has to feed, so it does. I don't know why the hive fleet is incapable of finding an equilibrium with its environment, which is decidedly unanimal, but I'm torn as to whether I'd want to see it elaborated on in the same way that the Necrons got fleshed out.

As for carnifexes not being scary, elephants are largely docile creatures but walking along next to one still instilled a very primal awareness of how small and vulnerable I actually am. The idea of something that large trying to harm me is particularly worrisome, especially if it happens to (unlike real elephants) be extremely resilient to small arms fire.

I really wouldn't describe most elephant guns as "small arms"



Just for an example. These are all ridiculous rifle rounds and are all pretty much made for elephants/large african (read dangerous) game. Purpose built to do that mind you. Now I loved my M-16 while I was in and you could take plenty of game with it's 5.56 round. But against African big game it might as well be a spit wad launcher unless you're the genetic combination of Vassili Zaitsev and Carlos Hathcock and can put the round into to the critter's brain through the eye every single time, which isn't the best idea because Cape Buffalo and the other large herbivores over there apparently have a couple minute window to stomp your guts out even from a perfect head shot, so in a perfect world you want to put the round through the shoulder (a mobility kill) preventing it from exacting revenge upon you before it's death.

From what I'd understood, the G3 spent decades as the weapon of choice among ivory poachers, replaced by things like the RPK and Mk43, fired from an old Land Rover or HiLux since they do great double duty shooting at anyone trying to interdict them.

But it's not like you need a Bushmaster or a Javelin to bring one down, whereas a Carnifex takes a decent volume of anti-armor fire.

I do not think of them as bad guys, any more than I think of sharks as bad guys.

With bad guys, it's personal; with sharks, it's lunch.

I think the idea of the Hive mind is important. Tyranids are not mindless killers, heck I doubt it even thinks of itself as a killer. It thinks/exists on such a scale that its probably dealing with most other races like people deal with mold.

That's part of what I find fun about collecting and playing them. Building and creating things that will be able to deal with each "flare up" and then implementing it.

Its fun to look at things like the Imperium and laugh at its small scale efforts.

Also, for whatever reason I am generally more of a Fantasy person, when comparing Fantasy and Sci-Fi. So when I started 40k (before Fantasy, obviously!) I went with the least "Tech" army.
Unless you count Biology as "Tech", which I did not really.

Almarine wrote:Tyranids always felt pretty pointless and boring to me as did necrons, at least before the new dex.

"Oh they are just so god damn evil you guys don't even understand it. They HATE ALL LIFE."

How boring can you get.

Except they're not evil . There's no morals to depravity or anything else associated with being evil about the Tyranids, mostly because they don't think on such small terms. They don't feel remorse for dumping you in a digestion pool because they exist on such a different plane of intelligence that they really didn't think of you as anything more than, say, a steak on your dinner plate. There's nothing intentionally immorally done, they're just after their next meal just like you are 3 times a day.

That's where the lack of understanding comes from - they're not evil, they're the top of the food chain. Humans just arent used to being so far below something on the food chain, so you naturally see it as intentional wickedness.

-Loki- wrote:

Almarine wrote:Tyranids always felt pretty pointless and boring to me as did necrons, at least before the new dex.

"Oh they are just so god damn evil you guys don't even understand it. They HATE ALL LIFE."

How boring can you get.

Except they're not evil . There's no morals to depravity or anything else associated with being evil about the Tyranids, mostly because they don't think on such small terms. They don't feel remorse for dumping you in a digestion pool because they exist on such a different plane of intelligence that they really didn't think of you as anything more than, say, a steak on your dinner plate. There's nothing intentionally immorally done, they're just after their next meal just like you are 3 times a day.

That's where the lack of understanding comes from - they're not evil, they're the top of the food chain. Humans just arent used to being so far below something on the food chain, so you naturally see it as intentional wickedness.

Whatever man. They're obviously evil.

i enjoy turning up to play my opponent and he's brought a ton of tanks and a fancy gunline and seeing his face smile when he hears i've brought nids.

I Turn up with Flying Tyrants, big Trygon snakes and Tyrannofexes and Tervigons. He laughs at first, but when i'm up in his face with the Close Combatty ones, and the Tervigons have Shat out tons of little Gants to tie up his Guard. I LOVE That feeling when he goes, "Oh... Oh gak. I don't actually know what to do now...."

Our MC's are awesome. We can field the biggest and best MC's in the game and at pretty cheap point costs too.


And they don't need motivation.

They just wanna omnomnom your Imperial face off

The conversation intrigued me so I had to weigh in. After my first love the Eldar, Nids are my favourite race to play.

In terms of fluff they aren't the bad guys. Chaos are the bad guys, they want to make the Imperium suffer, world domination and all that "bad guy" stuff. The Tyranids are a force of nature, a species of unknown origin, driven my some kind of hive mind that have left whole galaxies stripped bare behind them. You can't appeal to their vanity, get them monologueing or lull them into a false sense of security.
Their character comes from the fear they instil in the enemy, their story will always be written from the point of view of the species desperately standing against them as they try to hold the line. Guardsmen who find themselves staring down a 20 foot bulletproof monster still dripping with the blood of their friends, the chittering of millions of tiny claws as they lay bleeding with ripper hordes cleansing the planet and only a matter of time until they get to them.
The Fall of Malvolion is one of my favourite 40k stories, I hate the guard (and in fact all the "human" factions, I find them dull) and it's told entirely from their viewpoint but it's very much a Tyranid story.

On the battlefield I really don't play them as a shooting army, I advance into the heart of the enemy lines with Ymgarls popping out of the trees, units coming out of pods as the main bulk of the army gets closer with a little Devourer lead support fire and Termagants being hurled into enemy firebases to tie them up. Every game is a siege, it's rare my opponent gets to even take a step forward and is fighting on the back foot the whole time. It always feels like a last stand, they tried to draw the line there, perhaps just off board civilians huddle in their bunkers hoping the defenders will keep them safe, but they never do
Add in the new psi powers and the enemy finds itself weakened with fear as the Nids feel no pain and refuse to die as they enhance their own potency with their abilities.

Aesthetically I love the look, part insect, part lizard, the Tyranid warriors are some of my favourite models. They tower over standard rank and file troops, armoured death machines that overwhelm even the highly skilled Aspect Warriors or big Astartes "Super Soldiers" Devourer arms are a bit piddly at MC level but the Scything Talons look great, they they could just rip through whole squads and not even slow.

Thats why I love em, they are the great enemy, they are here to kill you and eat your family and your whole world, either you kill them or you die, there is no grey area.

-Loki- wrote:

Err, no. Gaunts are about the size of a dog.

I apologize. My memory stemmed from an old discussion about the topic on The Tyranid Hive, having just reread that thread I've remembered wrong. It would appear that yes the general consensus was that they are dog sized. From some of the artwork I would hazard a guess that they are still fairly large though, like around the size of a mastiff or other large dog breed. It's hard to tell.

Still, seeing thousands and thousands of really angry dogs is still pretty dang scary, in my book.

Yeah, definitely not Westie sized. The size of a large Rottweiler (same body mass as well) would fit a Hormagaunt.

Hahah, I want a westie sized 'gaunt now

Space roaches................Burn it with Fire

Almarine wrote:Whatever man. They're obviously evil.

No, they're just the top of the food chain. Is the lion evil for eating the gazelle? Is the shark evil for eating the seal?

I'd say that terran sharks are an excellent comparison to 'nids at least on a predatory level. Perfect hunters within their environment. While the Nids adapt to EVERY environment.

-Loki- wrote:

Rae Ruen wrote:I'm also fond of their sheer scale. If I recall correctly a standard gaunt is about the length of two family sedans. A gaunt, mind you! Just imagining how massive a fex or tyrant is is just terrifying. And then you just know there are creatures even more massive than them. And then you imagine thousands and thousands of these things. It's awe inspiring and mind blowing, personally.

Err, no. Gaunts are about the size of a dog.

I would love a dog cavalry xD

LunaHound wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Rae Ruen wrote:I'm also fond of their sheer scale. If I recall correctly a standard gaunt is about the length of two family sedans. A gaunt, mind you! Just imagining how massive a fex or tyrant is is just terrifying. And then you just know there are creatures even more massive than them. And then you imagine thousands and thousands of these things. It's awe inspiring and mind blowing, personally.

Err, no. Gaunts are about the size of a dog.

I would love a dog cavalry xD

The miniatures are definitely not to scale, and those silhouettes are definitely of models (I own both of those).

Those are from IA

So, I just went and read a PDF of the old codex, and my biggest take away from what little fluff they have is that... and bear with me here... the Tyranid are the Native American (especially plains indian) of the 40k world.

- Indians were largely animist. Every living thing had a consciousness. Has a soul. All tyranid are psykers, and can not only commune with each other like the wind communes with the grass, but can sense all the spirits that they encounter.

- Plains indians were nomadic, following the herds. Pretty clear point of commonality there. Nomads who follow where there is food and living off the land (well, in this case, "land" is both literal, and in reference to people).

- Indians who were warriors didn't see those two things as separate. A warrior WAS a warrior - a distinct kind of being from a human or a tree. They were infused with an animal spirit (here, biomorph) to become a new kind of creature for whom killing was the reason that they existed. It wasn't just societal, it was spiritual. No, it was existential.

They did what they did not because it was who they were, but because it was WHAT they were.

- Likewise hunting (especially among plains indians) had a similar thing to it. You roamed around "shopping" for the exact prey you were to take, and then you took it. Not just because you were hungry, but because the hunt itself was existentially sacred. They weren't merely consumers of meat, they were hunters of game.

It was a real shock to me to see this in the Tyranid codex. It's apparently not just a matter of eat, then reach for the next closest thing, then eat it, repeat. They're not just looking for food, they're looking for the next thing to HUNT. It is rather implied by the old codex that tyranid would be just fine skipping over worthless worlds that had crappy life on in. The food there is just that... food. They can get that anywhere. What the tyranid are looking for is something more.

Interestingly enough, this does sort of imply that the idea of the tyranid consuming an entire galaxy of literally all possible organic material is a lie. Like the plains indians, they likely show up at a galaxy, kill off all of the best prey to incorporate into their bodies, and leave all the weak and sickly behind - not even worth their effort to take down.

Furthermore, it alleviates the "peak biomass" problem I've always had with tyranid. If they literally consumed anything and everything, eventually they would hit a point where the amount of energy required to consume more would outpace the amount of energy they received from their conquests. This would imply that the last tyranid organism (far from having enough energy to escape to a new galaxy) would simply starve to death as the last piece of bio-matter was consumed.

Instead, tyranid are more like how we see animals in the wild - growing with plenty and shrinking with scarcity. Yes, they're always looking for the next huntable herd to exploit, but, in a strange way, they're sort of in tune with nature, rather than a producer or an exploiter.

American Indians were big on that.

- When the hunters returned in Native American society, most of the activity was peaceful. Food was prepared by non-hunters, and, so awful stereotype goes, they would use every part of their game. Needless to say, the latter is certainly true here, what with drinking the seas and breathing in all the air. What was most interesting, though, is that story near the end where the tyranid are going about the work of gathering up the world's resources.

It seemed almost... serene?

- And then, of course, there is the twist. Instead of all of this being destroyed by plague, and the remainders getting blown away by technologically superior foes, it's the opposite. Instead of the white man being the invader, it's the indians who are invading from incalcuably far away, landing in a more "civilized", yet highly factionalized land, that they then destroy with plague and start killing stuff. Imagine if Hiawatha had showed up with 100,000 braves and invaded Europe in 1250 AD. The threat would be just about as incomprehensible as it would be total.

Of course, if you wanted, you could say that it was the Golden Horde instead of Soix and Ojibwe, but I dont' know as much about that, relatively speaking, being American myself.

In any case, the Tyranid show up as the ultimate spoilers. They are so aloof from the happenings of the galaxy, that they put necron and eldar to shame. They hear the languages of the lesser races like the animal noises that they are, and, like a proper "noble savage" race out onto the plains in their sacred hunts.

Far from the comprehensive, industrialized eating machine the Imperium claims.

Ah the conflicts of new and old fluff. Consuming an entire galaxy wouldn't jibe with the old fluff, but the new fluff explicitly states they not only would, but have. A dozen times. So it's not really a 'lie', just newer fluff retconning older fluff.

I do agree though - the old ultimate predator fluff was much more interesting.

to take a line from Starship troopers here....


I would like to know more