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No reason you can't have both, the new fluff doesn't contradict all the old "Tyrant Guard display an almost Black Carapace style defence layer" and have them eat everything.

Having them rampage through the galaxy consuming everything in their path and just keeping the bits they like works, each strand of DNA is evaluated and either incorporated or simply used for it's mass.

There is the issue of critical mass but until they reach the point where they consume the entire galaxy in one fell swoop it's not an issue. The vast bulk of the Tyranid race is in stasis/hibernation and so using minimal energy and only the leading edge will be waking up. We don't know if they can use solar power and if so whether thats enough to keep the hibernators ticking over, we know they use gravitational forces and there is a significant amount of energy to be had in the consumption of a planet. Eventually it will be unsustainable, perhaps the universes ultimate fate is to be devoid of life except untold trillions of Tyranid ships in stasis around stars basking in it's energy until even those go out...
The thing is we don't know how the Tyranid race was created, perhaps the Hive Mind has a greater plan and thoughts for food/energy farms when the prey is exterminated. Perhaps they are a weapon out of control, in which case they wouldn't bother seeking an equilibrium as thats not what they were designed for. In that case perhaps they were never meant to develop space flight, they were released on a world as a weapon, wiped out the populace but were able to adapt and developed space flight at which point they became a mobile threat.

It does sort of go against the noble savage angle but I personally prefer them as a Super Predator, evolution taken to it's bleeding edge so I don't mind that. There are enough races in the setting who spend their time looking down on everyone else. The Nids of the newer fluff are above such things, they feed and replicate, the ultimate simplicity of purpose, each concept used in an enemies defence becomes something to adapt and overcome, eventually replicating them should they prove useful.

That is actually a very interesting perspective on Tyranids, Ailaros.
Definitely peaked my interest in them.

Dunklezahn wrote:No reason you can't have both, the new fluff doesn't contradict all the old "Tyrant Guard display an almost Black Carapace style defence layer" and have them eat everything.

Well, the new fluff actually does contradict the old fluff of creating new bioforms from harvested DNA from out galaxy, from the fact that Tyranids had all of their bioforms from the moment they first attacked in the new fluff. There is no gradual accumulation of new bioforms. Biovores are the only bioform mentioned as being made later, and not from Ork genetic material like they used to. Just as a reaction to enemies with longer ranged weapons.

I actually prefer the new method anyway - there's no way they concquered 12 galaxies without some key bioforms like Zoanthropes, and making a whole new bioform just because they found a new cache of genetic material is weird. They'd strengthen all existing bioforms that would take advantage of it, and continue to make new bioforms as tactics necessitated.

Note that this ties into the ultimate predator thing, Cruddace just never makes mention of that aspect. Like the rules, his effort with the fluff was totally half assed. But making new bioforms based on required strategy than simply 'hey, we can make super psykers based on these pointy eared things that taste like chicken' fits the super predator theme a lot better.

When I justify Tyranids myself, I assume that the fluff is only tangent to how they actually (fictionally) work. Landing on planets to eat biomass for food is so absurdly inefficient that the Hive would kill itself over time. It's like a fire burning green wood for heat. It can happen, but not indefinitely. I can only assume that the purpose for consumption is information consumption, not energy, whether information stored in DNA, or somehow extracted from the thought organs of the consumed species. If all they're after is joules, stars give it out for free. We can reason that Tyranids can do photosynthesis, as it's implied that they use consumed DNA to adapt, and the Hive Mind has eaten a plant or two in its day.

My completely unsubstantiated take is that the Hive Mind the result of some massively advanced and alien culture whose consciousness is centered in the minds Tyranid spacecraft. The bugs that everybody else sees are almost autonomic, taking in information and energy and filtering the useful bits up to the god-minds of the fleet, who might be doing the alien super-being equivalent of playing checkers.

I don't play them, but I prefer to have them as my enemy because:

1. They are as alien as possible.

2. If I lose, my army isn't just beaten, it's completely annihilated and devoured.

3. Being a red Carnifex model that stands only about 4-5inches tall on the table isn't exactly scary, seeing a big red Carnifex that actually stands 5-7 meters tall and can flip tanks over while littler minions eat your firing line is terrifying.

4. Tyrannids are IMO probably the greatest threat to all life in the 40k Universe because their sole purpose is to consume everything in it. Unlike other factions, they are almost entirely united in this goal, and (yes I know there's a few splinters in the fluff) it's represented by being the odd man out in the allies matrix. So no matter what, Tyrannids are a loner army.

Expect no mercy from other races, give none to them, leads to the last point:

5. They're still pretty badass for all the flakk they get for being pricey and somewhat difficult to play / noncompetitive. I've played Tyranids before, both losing to and crushing them just like other armies. It's simply how well acquainted you are with your own army, its tactics, and the armies of others that results in wins at the end of the day. The fact may be that Tyrannids may not have a true meta for "powergaming", but that to me makes them infinitely more exciting to play against, because it almost always guarantees that no two armies are alike. Like Orks, it allows players to literally do almost anything to customize their armies while still retaining the feeling that their army is truly evil and uncaring of how much other people may hate it.

-Loki- wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Rae Ruen wrote:I'm also fond of their sheer scale. If I recall correctly a standard gaunt is about the length of two family sedans. A gaunt, mind you! Just imagining how massive a fex or tyrant is is just terrifying. And then you just know there are creatures even more massive than them. And then you imagine thousands and thousands of these things. It's awe inspiring and mind blowing, personally.

Err, no. Gaunts are about the size of a dog.

I would love a dog cavalry xD

The miniatures are definitely not to scale, and those silhouettes are definitely of models (I own both of those).

That is the exact point of my post. Why would GW take pre existing models, yet modify the size between the 2, and finally making them look like silhouettes?
The only reason would be, that picture from IA is how FW want to depict the size of the gaunt.

Thanks for the comparison shot - I forgot how huge the gaunt models were compared to a guardsmen.

that Forgeworld picture shows what I was talking about. If you remove the oversized devourer, you have a gaunt the size of a well built Rottweiler/German shepherd/other large dog.

So were you posting it to agree with me?

Almarine wrote:

-Loki- wrote:

Almarine wrote:Tyranids always felt pretty pointless and boring to me as did necrons, at least before the new dex.

"Oh they are just so god damn evil you guys don't even understand it. They HATE ALL LIFE."

How boring can you get.

Except they're not evil . There's no morals to depravity or anything else associated with being evil about the Tyranids, mostly because they don't think on such small terms. They don't feel remorse for dumping you in a digestion pool because they exist on such a different plane of intelligence that they really didn't think of you as anything more than, say, a steak on your dinner plate. There's nothing intentionally immorally done, they're just after their next meal just like you are 3 times a day.

That's where the lack of understanding comes from - they're not evil, they're the top of the food chain. Humans just arent used to being so far below something on the food chain, so you naturally see it as intentional wickedness.

Whatever man. They're obviously evil.

Translation, "Whatever man. I don't understand what you're saying."

Ailaros, that's a cool take. I also like that since none of the fluff is guaranteed to be even half true, being written by outside observers who truly knows little of the Hive, the player is free to come up with his own ideas! If you like the top predator looking for challenging prey to improve their genetics idea go for it. All encompassing devourer? Cool. Extra-galactic bioweapon unleashed to weaken galaxies before the hyper intelligent dudes come along to rule? Why not.

Does it specifically say that had the creatures in the form we know and love/hate/fear from day 1?

I mean the roles the creatures play will have been filled but there's nothing saying they couldn't have been modified using DNA found in this galaxy, Eldar being highly psychic could have been like steroids for whatever Zoanthrope precursor they were already using. Outwardly the creature could be identical but still using Eldar DNA. The current generation of Zoanthrope could then easily be said to be made with Eldar DNA.
The genetic templates of Space Marines, Catachan Devils or myriad other species could have been integrated into existing designs creating small but subtle differences. After all those galaxies it's unlikely they are going to need something brand new, they probably have the basics down by now, but small modifications would be required unless we had developed exactly like another galaxy.

It also makes sense that the races of our galaxy would assume they were the template even if they weren't. The original force was likely very bland and general purpose and it wouldn't have been until later when they knew how their prey fought that more specific creatures emerged.

Okay, so I finished reading the current tyranid codex. I agree that, despite having ten times the amount of fluff, the fluff in the codex is much, much worse.

- They got brought down several notches. Most of the fluff in the codex is how tyranid lose to every other army. Lolwhut? I'm trying to think of another codex where that is true. Even the guard codex is almost entirely about guard victories. The tyranid codex seems to be almost entirely devoted to their defeats.

- I don't think Cruddance really understands what the word "gestalt" means, or at least didn't bother reading the previous codex to see its interpretation. The original codex clearly state that the tyranid "mind" is a "brain" made up of a bunch of synapses (excuse the term). Instead of each synapse being connected to each other by chemistry, it's connected to each other psychically. Each brain is part of one large mind just like a processor in a cluster computer.

In the new tyranid codex, the hive mind is almost treated like a separate entity. A hive tyrant is enslaved to the hive mind, but has some degree of initiative? What does that even mean? A hive tyrant is the hive mind, and the hive mind is the hive tyrant. In the old fluff, a hive tyrant was a router, taking in a bunch of information from a bunch of different places, and then passing it along as a single data stream. Its mind being composed of many data streams (rather than just one, like a gaunt), it naturally posessed more intelligence, and, sure, could operate with some degree of self-awareness.

In the old one, a hive tyrant was a nerve cluster, not a separate entity that could be talked down to.

- The hive mind seems a lot more capricious. It's more like a fat man reclining on a sofa poking at things with a stick while demanding that others bring him new stuff to taste. He comes across as like a Nero or a Caligula. A powerful person that just wants to dick with stuff because he can.

- Speaking of tasting, they definitely up-play the idea that the tyranid are on an intergalactic shopping spree, but then its absolutely gutted. Zoanthropes aren't made from tyranid adaptation of eldar. Tyrant guard don't use space marine gene-seed material. Etc. Furthermore, as someone else managed, they can seem to just evolve at will, without regard to genetic material they come across. This almost makes the tyranid sound like they're on a pleasure cruise - going around and sampling all of the local culture (so to speak), but to no real end, and for no apparent aesthetic. They're more like extremely rich, pompous, and self-entitled space tourists, snacking on other people for no apparent reason than that they can.

- The new codex plays up the Malthusian angle. Behemoth failed for no reason other than cold, hard math. Resources in failed to match resources out. End of story. Furthermore, they also mention a few times how Tyranid are now in the game of picking low-hanging fruit. They only attack planets that are rich in bio-matter, as more arid planets won't give them enough of a return on investment, as far as energy is concerned. Also, it mentions that they go for less defended worlds where they can, as it keeps their investment down.

They basically went from hunters looking for the best of the best, to the galaxy's new breed of heyena or buzzard. Vicious and dangerous in a fight, but if you bang a bunch of pots and pans at them before the fight starts, they'll just go scavenge somewhere else.

On an interesting note, this even more reinforces that they don't strip galaxies bare. They pick up the most biomatter at the highest efficiency, and then just go dormant and float somewhere else.

- In general, it seems like the new codex (form, not substance), is very similar to eldar. It's a poorly-developed concept that takes a bunch of disparate yet similarly themed models and crams them into a single codex and hopes you'll figure out how they get along on the table. Fluff-wise, there is very little to go on, and the army itself seems to lack a soul, much less any real unifying purpose. To be fair, GW is bad at writing xeno fluff, and you could make the same complaint about eldar, as mentioned, but also about dark eldar and tau. Really, the only one they seem to get right is Ork.

Unfortunately, this brings me back to where I started. Their fluff is disjointed, occasionally contradictory, is very small in quantity, inspires little imagination, and doesn't fit in with any of the rest of what's going on in the 40k world. The models (those which they've actually managed to produce), are a confusing mishmash of concepts that get painted in clown colors or, like the old DE models, are painted black to hide what they actually look like. On the table, at least at first glance, all of the units are really similar to each other. Like a marine army without vehicles. It's just a matter of fluctuations in the statline, which of a limited pool of upgrades they can take and then perhaps one small special rule to set the different guys apart from each other.

I just really don't get it.

---

The final thing that really strikes me is that people are talking about tyranid in ways where they have to bring in information from outside of tyranid fluff. Someone talked about how they're striving for perfection. Nowhere does it say that. You're just bringing in fluff from Starcraft. Someone talked about how they're a nihilistic alien menace that exists just to kill you from the darkness. Nowhere does it say that. You're just bringing in fluff from movies like Aliens and Predator.

Tyranid fluff appears to be so thin and full of holes, that the way that people are justifying it is bringing in fluff from other, better, bug-based alien stories because there just isn't enough to work with in tyranid itself. Not to say you can't draw inspiration from other things, but other armies stand on their own, rather than being so sketchily plotted out that the user has to straight-up steal work from better writers to make something that's even playable, much less sensical.

Guard players may be attracted by the humanity of the guard, and by the aesthetic of the various guard armies and the models and the stories (especially Abnett). People think that a Cadian or a Catachan army is, itself, something interesting enough to play. The same could be said about several space marine armies. Ultramarines certainly don't need to rely on other stuff brought in from outside of 40k for a player to understand the aesthetic.

Meanwhile, with tyranid, it seems that unless you, yourself are bringing a lot of outside stuff into tyranid, there just isn't all that much to work with once you've arrived.

Perhaps I just need to see a new codex. Perhaps I'll never get it...

Ailaros wrote:Someone talked about how they're a nihilistic alien menace that exists just to kill you from the darkness. Nowhere does it say that. You're just bringing in fluff from movies like Aliens and Predator.

There are many terrifying creatures in the Tyranid Hive Fleets, but one in particular has carved a bloody legend on a thousand worlds. It is a lurker in dark places, a clawed harbinger of sudden and violent death.It is known as the Genestealerand it is a plague upon the galaxy.

Opening paragraph for the Genestealer entry.

Able to move swiftlyand without sound through the densest terrain, and concealed by a chameleonic carapace that renders it all but invisible to the naked eye, a Lictor can remain hidden until it chooses to strike.

Opening paragraph of the Lictor entry.

I wasn't saying they're exactly like aliens. They give you the ability, however, to play like certain alien archetypes from movies. Hidden ambushes like aliens, swarming carpets like Starship troopers, aerial assaults like Pitch Black. Tyranids are like an amalgamation of all that's good in sci fi alien action/horror.

You're right about the new fluff though. Don't judge Tyranids too harshly by it - if we're lucky, Kelly will take the next book and all will be good again.

I've always found the Tyranid to be a poor man's Zerg (which is ironic, considering that Zerg were partially inspired by the Tyranid), personally- mainly for most of the reasons you described. They're soulless. They have no character- no deviation or real narrative. They're just... there.

Ailaros wrote:

Unfortunately, this brings me back to where I started. Their fluff is disjointed, occasionally contradictory, is very small in quantity, inspires little imagination, and doesn't fit in with any of the rest of what's going on in the 40k world.

Welcome to the Robin Cruddace hate club. The guy could not write a good story if he tried.

The models (those which they've actually managed to produce)

Actually, the Tyranids nearly have a full line (just missing the Harpy and the Mysetic Spore).

are a confusing mishmash of concepts that get painted in clown colors or, like the old DE models, are painted black to hide what they actually look like.

Actually, the Hive Fleet is colored to reflect the army they fight (Behemoth is blue just like the Ultramarines).

On the table, at least at first glance, all of the units are really similar to each other.

You know when I look at Guard, you all look the same at first glance, too

It's just a matter of fluctuations in the statline, which of a limited pool of upgrades they can take and then perhaps one small special rule to set the different guys apart from each other.

A lot of them we don't even need. Just give a guy Toxin Sacs and you double his effectiveness. And once you play a game as Tyranids, you understand how big those special rules are. The really cool thing about Tyranids is the special rule, unlike any other army Tyranid can stack special rule.

Example: the Termagant isn't powerful at all but, if we add a Hive Tyrant w/ Old Adversary, a Tervigon w/ catalyst and a Vemonthrope, aswell as replaced their weapon to a Devourer. Now that Termagant is now shooting 3 shots and 18", re-rolling it's misses of 1, it's fearless, has FNP and a mobile cover save....That Termagant is now vary scary.

Great models, great gameplay, fluff is ok imo and I hope they are not going to rewrite it with Mat Ward walking around, they've already competly ruined the feel of Necrons for me. Shallow, simple, deadly, all great.

If you want to be sold on them, install Dawn of War II Retribution, mod it to remove population cap and see the Swarmlord on the move, Carnifex pinning the marine to the ground with scything talons in gayzers of blood, make a massive spore mine assault etc.

What's the point of Tyranid army on the tabletop? Infiltrating, deepstrike, CC, horde, shooty, psychic, all around army that's hard but rewarding to play. Shooting could be better and I'd like more abilities like Doom of Malantai but no complaints, I like mr Cruddace codex - I don't like my army being over powered. Not to mention, if you apply terrain by the book so big LoS blocking piece or 2, they turn much more dangerous and no wonder that with usual few ruins and puny forests on the table they are easier to defeat, that's not how GW and mr. Cruddace meant it though.


Tyranids not scary, matter of paintjob imo - if I only saw Tyranids painted by GW for example, I would never start to play them. Now check this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/71627366@N04/7001913305/

Scary enough?

I think most people have that army that they "just don't get". Sisters would be that army for me. Also, while I get them, I'm not a fan of either Chaos army.

As for Nids appeal for me, I like the idea of the faceless predator, who doesn't care about politics, doesn't care about honor, or glory. They don't care about your religion, or your altruism. At the basic level, they just want to tear down that door and rip you apart limb from limb as they devour you alive. There won't be any contemplation over your death, they won't ever give you a second thought once you are consumed, they just move on to find the next victim. They are about as "xenos" and as far removed from the imperium armies as one can get.

For gameplay, they have a unique gameplay style, and are incredibly diverse in the types of builds you can make.

As for the shifting fluff, and what the Hive Mind is "really about", just like a lot of other fluff for other armies, you take the pieces that work for you and kind of ignore the stuff that doesn't.

On the clown colors...really? Look at Space Marines, they come in every color under the sun, or eldar...they have ACTUAL clowns for christ's sake. I will grant you that tyranid players do seem to suffer the most to "unfortunate paint scheme syndrome." but there are some pretty awesome schemes out there as well (see Plumbumbarum's link)

As for models not having any diversity, you can say the same of a lot of armies. The difference between tac squads, assault squads, devestator squads, sternguard vets, and vanguard vets is almost limited to what they hold in their hands and maybe what color you paint their head and shoulder pads. IG aren't too much better.

The bottom line however, is if you don't get them, you don't get them. Nobody is forcing you to like them. Just play your armies, and we'll be happy playing ours.

BlaxicanX wrote:They're soulless. They have no character- no deviation or real narrative. They're just... there.

And that's exactly what some people want.

Why do I have to have a heroic Hive Tyrant that's triumphed over countless enemy commanders, bedecked in trophies? Why do I need to have a Zoanthrope that sits in his little bio-cubicle, studying the whys and wherefores of the enemies motivations? Why do I need a Tyranid Prime with a bio-mechanical arm that can carry a Heavy Venom Cannon instead of a normal Venom Cannon while the Termagants cheer him on?

Tyranids aren't about individual character or narrative. They're there for people who want to be the xenomorphs from Aliens, the bugs from Starship Troopers, the... bat things from Pitch Black. They're there for people who don't want heroes, or anti heroes, who just want to watch their opponents heroes go down in bloody combat with a beast from their darkest nightmare. They want to be the faceless bad guy who overwhelms the massive personalities of the game, or watch them scrape out a victory against something that wants little else than to tear his face off.

If you don't get that, then you don't get the Tyranids. Which is fine. You don't have to get every race.

 60mm wrote:


In the grand scheme, all the races of our galaxy, eldar, tau, etc. are incredibly young compared to the Tyranids. Considering the closest galaxy is something like 60,000 light years, and Tyranids float through space, they have existed for billions of years and have undoubtedly consumed numerous galaxies to become what they have.

Tyranids are "incredibly old" then? You little bugs are mere kids compared to us Necrons.

 -Loki- wrote:

And that's exactly what some people want.


If you don't get that, then you don't get the Tyranids. Which is fine. You don't have to get every race.

Where did I say that I didn't "get" it? I said that personally I think they're boring. I could care less what you or anyone else wants or doesn't want in a faction- I only care about what I want in a faction, and to me, the Tyranids are a less interesting Zerg because they're basically just an army of 1980's action-movie henchman. They're soulless robo-ants with no underlying motives or characterizations who exist solely to kill and be killed in return, which I find to be incredibly dull- not to play against of course, stomping henchman is fun, hence the point of having henchman in a story for the protagonist to fight- but henchman certainly hold no appeal to me as far as being the protagonist themselves.

The tryanids are basically the unstoppable force and the imperium and other races are the immovable object, either they hold them at bay or one eventually destorys the other. However with the tryanids abilty to evolve and learn they just might eventually overcome the immovable object. The ultimate alien predator with an animal cunning.

True there codex does show a lot of loses but there are also a lot of stories in which they win too. Whenever I have read a story with tryanids in it and how they kill people I aways think that is probably the worst way to go, being melted to sludge by acid, bugs eating you from the inside out getting ripped and pulled apart are all pretty horrific ways to go to me more so then being hit by shrapnal or small arms fire.

I dont see how you can say the models are not interesting pretty much every option looks completely different to the one before, if anything they probably have the most diverse range out there. Colour schemes do vary but that is not the models fault but the owner who decides the paint scheme.
To be honest they are not that hard to get, I don't really know what you find so hard to understand about them, if you have read the codex from all editions and other info then I dont know what you find so difficult to understand about them, they are a pretty simple concept, unless you are deliberately looking for things to critisise about them, which can be done with any army and it's fluff in 40k.

Yep exactly, what OP is doing is imo over intelectualised nitpicking, something 40k fluff in general is unable to withstand.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 60mm wrote:


In the grand scheme, all the races of our galaxy, eldar, tau, etc. are incredibly young compared to the Tyranids. Considering the closest galaxy is something like 60,000 light years, and Tyranids float through space, they have existed for billions of years and have undoubtedly consumed numerous galaxies to become what they have.

Tyranids are "incredibly old" then? You little bugs are mere kids compared to us Necrons.

A bunch of cripples who got their asses handed to them so much they hated everyone for it and sold themselves out to gods only to become slaves.
Also, Necrons having all of their history in a span described in millions of years can't be as old as Tyranids. Traveling between two galaxies alone would make them far older, not counting the time it took to fight through other galaxies and travel between them with no warp travel, literally floating trillions of miles. Necrontyr couldn't even fight their way off their planet or figure out a cure for cancer. The c'tan, they are older. Necrons though, psh. They're still angry for being cripples that got beat up all the time.

Has anyone considered there are only defeats in the codex because, if the other side wins they can note down the victory and record it.

However if the Tyranid's win there are no survivors to the note down the Tyranid victory.

Also, all the other races have a way of communicating to let's say Imperials, where as the Tyranid's are incapable of communicating, or don't want to, after all, all communication is dealt through hive mind is it not?

So the reason for the lack of depth of the Tyranid's (in my head anyway).

1. When the Nids win there are no survivors to detail the victory, whereas a Nid loss would mean it could be recorded.
2. Inability to communicate outside their racial boundaries, or lack of interest in communicating with other races.

As for the mysterious Origin of the Nid's, there would be no records of it because they came from beneath the galaxy if I remember correctly. So they came from a location where there are no survivors (they consumed it), so there are no records to support any idea of how they came to be.

Also isn't the canon of 40k that Imperial records are the fluff in codices? So if the Imperium can't communicate with them, then they wouldn't know what to put in the codices essentially. Hence the lack of fluff for Nids. I have never bought a non imperial codex so I wouldn't know. Maybe I am completely wrong.

But Nid's are awesome anyhow, Starship Troopers and the Alien movies make me want to play the army . Also Space Hulk is awesome and made me want a BA, so Nids are next

Personally I love nids, I love the models and the idea of the super predator, which as said before is helped by starship troopers and the alien films, the only thing I dislike is they have a bad codex and currently do not play how they should, I should be able to take tonnes of grubs and run forward and eat things with my massive bugs at the back casuing fear and terror and ripping men and tanks apart, however at the moment the grubs all die before they get to the enemy and all the big bugs just get bug zapped by a lascannon and die.

Overall cruddace screwed them over with over expensive MC and no invuns or any kind of protection from low AP weps for things like warriors or MC, news flash 3 wounds means nothing when missiles insta kill you.

Now that the rant is over

Nids rock!

Ailaros wrote: The new codex plays up the Malthusian angle. Behemoth failed for no reason other than cold, hard math. Resources in failed to match resources out. End of story.

NO

this is a soft spot for me and it symbolizes why the new codex hurts me, im going to quote the codex here, so please bear with me.

the codex says: Even now, the imperial fleet was outmatched, for the Tyranidsfought fiercly and their numbers were still greater than those of the COMBINED imperial fleet. Only the desperate sacrafice of the huge Dominus Astra, its hull pierced and acid-scored, and its decks overrun with Genestealers, swung the battle in the Imperium's favor. Charging into the heart of the Hive Fleet, the emperor-class battleshi detonated its mighty warp drives, creating a cataclysmic vortex dragging both it AND THE ENTIRE TYRANID FLEET INTO OBLIVION

THE ENTIRE FLEET, this is as my friends and i call it, Cruddace's Tyranid seeking black hole, isn't it funny how a fleet that fights in close quarters with enemy fleets got sucked into a black hole without and imperial vessels being damaged, or even slowed down for that matter? It isn't just the silliness of it, its the laziness of the writing, the WHOLE fleet, every single ship, not the majority that led to a final desperate battle, not most of them, all of them, supposedly the Tyranid fleet had a heart too, some big blob of ships that weren't fighting but just sitting there chatting about all those blue dudes that were on the planet earlier. Then the imperial fleet now unharmed, (i suppose all of the Genestealers Lictors and other Tyranids that boarded the ships were vacuumed out as well), and free of any of the Tyranid ships that were grappling them, turn around go to Macagree and promptly kill all of the Tyranids left, and "win". That is point 2, the Swarmlord wasn't dead, the majority of the Tyranid ground army wasn't dead, and all of the remaining Imperial forces left alive on the planet were hiding on the polar fortresses.
This means
1. All of the civilians and wildlife has most likely been consumed meaning that planet based brood dens and hive spires have most likely been constructed.
2. The Tyranid forces would have consumed all of their own dead and the dead of anything they found and then would have began creating more forces.
3. the polar fortresses would have been assaulted by the entirety of the swarm, with all of it's leadership intact, and the energy of an entire planet behind it, against only 2 fortified positions.
4. they would have at least 24 hours to attack these positions before the battle in space was resolved and the fleets turned around.

Yet Marenus comes back and only has to do clean-up duty, like all of the Nids just spontaneously died, when in reality he would have returned to find a dead planet overrun by and army 5 times the size of his.

Also, this one's just me but the shrine where Robert Guillmans body is held in stasis, would have overrun and that body would have been chowed on for some sweet sweet Primarch genetics.

kanekaneo wrote:
So the reason for the lack of depth of the Tyranid's (in my head anyway).

1. When the Nids win there are no survivors to detail the victory, whereas a Nid loss would mean it could be recorded.
2. Inability to communicate outside their racial boundaries, or lack of interest in communicating with other races.

Well that works if the Tyranid codex is supposed to be an Imperial write up of the Tyranids, but it is instead supposed to be the rulebook by which to play a tyranid army. No Xenos army would make sense if their rules were written from the Imperial perspective...

People just need to accept that some of the codex books are written POORLY. There is no big amazing secret to it or in game reason for it. The authors just did a lousy job. Doesn't stop me from enjoying playing 'nids, but anyone who needs them to "make sense" somehow before they will play them will be sadly disappointed and start up threads ranting about how awful they are expecting people to defend the army to them...oh wait....

Skriker