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Earliest (and only) source for the whole webway business Lexicanum cites is HH: Collected Visions.

I think it was just Emperor's life support device before that. The webway affair has not in my knowledge appeared on any main GW publication.

Of course I might be wrong and there could be earlier source.


Oh, and this nicely demonstates why Heresy has to be totally mythologised by 41th millennium. It was ten thousand years ago. We alrady have mythologised publication history in few decades, and cannot agree where certain pieces of information originates.

Kaldor wrote:

redkommando wrote:Yea , Sangiuinus always had literal wings,

He was found by membersof the True Blood, and they wanted to put him to the sword because of the the tiny wings on his back, that grew as he did

Look it up in the Index Astartes on the Blood Angels

True, but given that it referred to an event ten thousand years old, it was much easier to tell myself it was simply a retelling of an evolved myth. It's only an example, anyway.

But I agree with the point you were trying to make, I like to think of the Primarchs as just awesome Space Marine generals, not super-uber-kill everything with a stare guy. I like the old model of Leman Russ. Just is over time, they have become exaggerated within the Imperium to the point of Demi-Gods

Wardragoon wrote:...it ruins some fluff (E.g. Ollanius Pius, I would much rather him be a man like you or me, than a superhuman, too many of those in the series already).

I agree completely, I hate what they did to Ollanius. Lost interest in the HH after that.

Well I’m just happy with the fact, that it is only the minority of people who are discontent with HH series. The HH books are selling like nobody's business and I personally wouldn’t want it any other way.

Redcruisair wrote:Well I’m just happy with the fact, that it is only the minority of people who are discontent with HH series. The HH books are selling like nobody's business and I personally wouldn’t want it any other way.

Ty I' just wanted to write that....

There will always be people who don't like something that other people do (and vice-versa), that's what makes us individual. I'm glad that GW are doing well from the HH series, I am, just it's not to my cup of tea. I'm happy with there being super-human stuff in the universe but I'd much rather focus on the weaker, more fallible humans than some super-humans who lack the full array of emotions that humans are capable of. I'm sure there are elements that deal with humans primarily in the HH, not 'souped up' Illuminati/Sensei humans, but the basic, ordinary fellow who has a gun, some armour & is obeying orders, but I imagine they are few and far between - hence it's not wholly my cup of tea.

Why wouldn't you be interested in the pioneers of the imperium and their tale of epic proportions fighting against their own blood. The most epic thing Marnius Calgar ever did was fight an avatar or fight a swarm lord. PRIMARCHS DIED, FOUGHT EACH OTHER thousands of battle brothers killing each other like.... i dont see how 40k even compares to the heresy... there is no contest i'm sorry. HH is the new religion. Why would i want to read a 40k book, about a bunch of ignorant 40k marines who know nothing of the past and literally are plain stupid. Ive read a crap load of 40k novels and some chapters dont even know what chaos is..... like.. people in 40 are told nothing.. its pathetic. I also dont see why you guys are hung up on the religion part of 40k. Its literally all just corruption and citizen manipulation by the high lords of terra which are corrupt... 40k sucks ass fluff wise. HH or nothing. Why read about some random chapter " who knows nothing about the past or their own founding.. ' because their so old' saving some planet from some random xenos, which has no real threat or danger to the galaxy.. when you can read about Fulgrim dooming the galaxy with every smalll action he makes.. so subtle. Or perhaps the origin of the dark angels... or how the first primarch even died... you guys are wet blankets and completely lame to compare 40k to HH, it cannot be done.

I'd also like to say that in 40k there are cool things. im not totally a HH fanboy. The necrons, and the Tyranids both are extremely cool, and both very unique.

However something that i have noticed is that in 40k; when reading a book they really get interesting and really get that awe factor when something heresy related is brought up, whether its an relic of the legion, or the something from the time of the heresy..
example: In the salamanders trilogy, its pretty dry info, until you realize the book is based on artifacts of the primarch from the heresy.. throughout the trilogy there are mentions of the heresy countless times, and references of it throughout the novels. There is a discovery of a [spoiler] loyalist salamander still alive from Istvan 5.

In the nightlords trilogy ( excellent i might add ) the main reason its bad ass is because ABD tells the story from start to finish of how the night lords became to be, how they fell and why. and it totally kicked ass because of all the heresy related stories etc written in time with a 40k story...

I personally think as the heresy starting from a hundred years before Horus was Warmaster until like M 38...

HH is where its at, and if theres something interesting or cool in a 40k book its heresy related, or from an earlier time.

Frecklesonfire wrote: Why would i want to read a 40k book, about a bunch of ignorant 40k marines who know nothing of the past and literally are plain stupid. Ive read a crap load of 40k novels and some chapters dont even know what chaos is..... like.. people in 40 are told nothing.. its pathetic. I also dont see why you guys are hung up on the religion part of 40k. Its literally all just corruption and citizen manipulation by the high lords of terra which are corrupt...

And that's exactly why 41st millennium is awesome!

Frecklesonfire wrote:Why wouldn't you be interested in the pioneers of the imperium and their tale of epic proportions fighting against their own blood. The most epic thing Marnius Calgar ever did was fight an avatar or fight a swarm lord. PRIMARCHS DIED, FOUGHT EACH OTHER thousands of battle brothers killing each other like....

Exactly. To some people, there can indeed be such a thing as "too many lensflares" or "too many explosions", and characters can be hyped up to such a level where it becomes impossible to identify with them. When the protagonists are put on a pedestral so high that the novel wants to have me worship them as gods, ... yeah, I dunno, maybe I'm missing some gene, but in such cases I'm just plain bored as I cannot take it seriously.

Frecklesonfire wrote:I also dont see why you guys are hung up on the religion part of 40k. Its literally all just corruption and citizen manipulation by the high lords of terra which are corrupt...

Precisely!

I didn't get into 40k because it attracted me with some tale of a million heroic supermen in golden armour beating back an army of cliché supervillains - I got into it because it was refreshingly dystopian; a setting where nobody has the moral high ground, where human lives are worth less than the weapons they're wasted with, and where continued survival has to be purchased with terrible sacrifices, made voluntary or enforced at the barrel of a gun every single day.

I generally prefer grittier settings as they feel more realistic to me, and as such are easier for me to immerse myself into.

No thats why its frustrating and would never happen because a chapter master WOULD'VE stepped in and said : No F - @#$%% you guys your corrupt for the emporer and put a bolt though their heads. And he would have all the support from the other marines chapter masters etc because they all know and dislike the high lords. Its dumb, i'm sorry


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I added more to my OP sorry

Frecklesonfire wrote:No thats why its frustrating and would never happen because a chapter master WOULD'VE stepped in and said : No F - @#$%% you guys your corrupt for the emporer and put a bolt though their heads. And he would have all the support from the other marines chapter masters etc because they all know and dislike the high lords. Its dumb, i'm sorry

*I*'m sorry, but I think you're overestimating the importance as well as the resilience of Space Marines. Probably a result of the aforementioned "over-epic" portrayal in the HH novels.

Likely a topic for another thread, though I vaguely recall people were just discussing that around here the other day.

Frecklesonfire wrote:No thats why its frustrating and would never happen because a chapter master WOULD'VE stepped in and said : No F - @#$%% you guys your corrupt for the emporer and put a bolt though their heads. And he would have all the support from the other marines chapter masters etc because they all know and dislike the high lords. Its dumb, i'm sorry

Never, you traitor! Crimson Templars shall stand for the law and order and not ally with deluded insurectionists who want to start an another Heresy!

And seriously, it is one thing to not like your govenment, and utterly another to commit a treason and start an open rebellion.

What does the resilience of space marines have to do with putting up with corrupt high lords? an honorable chapter, maybe one such as the imperial fists well say, could easily step in and say, okay guys we've had enough we know your corrupt, the emperor isn't a god blamo! in the 40k novels the imperial citizens are shuned and frowned upon and most noble marines spit on them, why? mainly because they worship the emperor as a god and the astartes know better. So why hasn't this stopped? its Ludacris!


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Crimson, its a righteous rebellion!~ JUST LIKE HORRUS did bwaha! cleanse the imperium of corrupt filth! starting at the top!

Crimson wrote:And seriously, it is one thing to not like your govenment, and utterly another to commit a treason and start an open rebellion.

Especially that shortly after Horus tried it.

Guilliman had it right; he was a good man who actually cared about the Greater Imperium and mankind as a whole, and not just his own Marines. There should've been more Chapter Masters like him.

Frecklesonfire wrote:What does the resilience of space marines have to do with putting up with corrupt high lords? an honorable chapter, maybe one such as the imperial fists well say, could easily step in and say, okay guys we've had enough we know your corrupt, the emperor isn't a god blamo!

Apart from me doubting that many Chapter Masters are actually that stupid to not realize this would be a dumb idea, I just think the Chapters attempting such a rebellion wouldn't survive long.
I actually think they might have a good chance offing the High Lords - but then what? Do you honestly think the people of the Imperium would just accept a coup like that, especially when these Traitor Marines - who have just about zero connection to the Imperial citizenry nor its armed force - attempt to forcibly dismantle the religion they've grown up with?

Would you say big blue was doing it for the imperium, or for mankind?

Frecklesonfire wrote:Would you say big blue was doing it for the imperium, or for mankind?

Both. It seems that everyone in the setting pretty much accepts the Emperor's vision that mankind is the Imperium, respectively that the IoM is mankind's only chance of survival in such a hostile galaxy.

I like the Age of Apostasy era that was about halfway between the Heresy and M41. It enables all the modern forces (apart from Necrons and Tau) to coexist, but it was also a major turning point of the Imperium, when things nearly went Heresy-level again. Forces like the Sisters of Battle came out of that time period as well as I think the Badab Uprising, though I could be wrong on that one.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Why wouldn't you be interested in the pioneers of the imperium and their tale of epic proportions fighting against their own blood.

Because I liked it as a mythical piece of legend where no-one really knows what happened. It felt to me like something that truly happened many years ago and no-one is sure of the details - half-forgotten, half-untold. But generally you list why I'm not too interested in Astartes & Primarchs;

Frecklesonfire wrote: The most epic thing Marnius Calgar ever did was fight an avatar or fight a swarm lord. PRIMARCHS DIED, FOUGHT EACH OTHER thousands of battle brothers killing each other like.... i dont see how 40k even compares to the heresy... there is no contest i'm sorry. HH is the new religion. Why would i want to read a 40k book, about a bunch of ignorant 40k marines who know nothing of the past and literally are plain stupid. Ive read a crap load of 40k novels and some chapters dont even know what chaos is..... like.. people in 40 are told nothing.. its pathetic. I also dont see why you guys are hung up on the religion part of 40k. Its literally all just corruption and citizen manipulation by the high lords of terra which are corrupt... 40k sucks ass fluff wise. HH or nothing. Why read about some random chapter " who knows nothing about the past or their own founding.. ' because their so old' saving some planet from some random xenos, which has no real threat or danger to the galaxy.. when you can read about Fulgrim dooming the galaxy with every smalll action he makes.. so subtle. Or perhaps the origin of the dark angels... or how the first primarch even died... you guys are wet blankets and completely lame to compare 40k to HH, it cannot be done.

Yes, yes all very nice but I don't care for super-humans. Never have done, doubt I ever will! Why would I, then, want to read about some super-human when I want to read about some poor Guardsman who is soiling himself in fear but doing his duty? I connect with the Guardsman far more than I could ever a super-human. Yes they can be cool and yes I have moments where I really like Space Marines but generally I couldn't give two hoots. This is why the only thing about the Heresy I really love is Ollanius Pius, the original Imperial Army Pius, who performed a super-human action as a regular human.

As for the 40k setting, it is brilliant. Superb, even. When you look at the Imperium & how it is at the close of 999.M41 it is in a real mess. It is technologically, socially, culturally, religiously backwards by our standards. It is rife with fear, corruption, dictatorial control, outdated dogma, eternal in-fighting, rebellion, strife - but it needs to be to hold it together and it does sort of work. There is no way it can change 'for the better' without the whole lot coming crashing down. As it is I interpret the close of the 41st millennium as humanity clinging on by its fingertips, holding on for all it's worth because the alternative is death, destruction, chaos. Civilians live their whole lives under this blanket of fear, oppression and persecution, no doubt praying to the God-Emperor that things will get better for them, but they won't. They can only hope they get through each day, one after the other, surviving because that is all they can do, the basic human traits keeping them going. It's like a house of cards waiting for a gale to knock it down but clings together anyway in hope that the storm doesn't come.

Could you not find suitable non corrupt lords to bring forth as High lords? surely it can be done. It is quit the overhaul, but how does the Inquisition work, as far as i know they get there orders from the Lords, wouldn't they know there ' bosses' are corrupt. I guess it is depressing and grim to know that the imperium is totally corrupt and we cant do anything about it because well be labelled traitors, and all of our citizens will rebel if we try to stop the corruption. And basically everything the common man knows to be true is a lie, falsified to keep him in line.


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If you want to relate to an imperial guardsman, buy some steel toe boots and be a construction worker, man up and read about real men, space marines.

Frecklesonfire wrote:Could you not find suitable non corrupt lords to bring forth as High lords? surely it can be done.

I'm sure it could. But what you're forgetting is that these guys are sitting there for a reason. They have such an enormous powerbase at their beck and call that any attempt to remove them would trigger extremely volatile repercussions - not to mention that they have already been grooming their successors, who are influential people as well and unlikely to just take a step back.
Ultimately, would it really be worth it? How "corrupt" are the High Lords, even? We know very little about them, and I'm sure they lead a very opulent lifestyle, but from all I've read cases like Vandire are the exception, not the rule. Can you define this "corruption" and how it would endanger the Imperium more than the civil war that would result out of an attempt to depose them?

Frecklesonfire wrote:It is quit the overhaul, but how does the Inquisition work, as far as i know they get there orders from the Lords, wouldn't they know there ' bosses' are corrupt.

The Inquisition actually stands apart from the High Lords and is not subject to their command. Only the Emperor stands above them.
One would think that this would make the Inquisition some sort of a loose cannon, but apparently their internal control and networking seems to result in a comparatively stable web of connections and relations, usually exposing and ending those Inquisitors that are a threat to the greater whole before things get blown out of proportions.

I guess it is depressing and grim to know that the imperium is totally corrupt and we cant do anything about it because well be labelled traitors, and all of our citizens will rebel if we try to stop the corruption. And basically everything the common man knows to be true is a lie, falsified to keep him in line.

Frecklesonfire wrote:If you want to relate to an imperial guardsman, buy some steel toe boots and be a construction worker, man up and read about real men, space marines.

Some would say that Space Marines are not "real men" but genetically engineered and hypno-indoctrinated tools of war that the Emperor planned to discard as soon as the Great Crusade was finished. Of course this begs the question how a "real man" is actually defined. If the moniker applies to bravery, I'm sure it takes more of a simple Guardsman to face a Tyranid or Ork and manage to fire his gun at the creature, than the same deed being done by a transhuman Astartes. This is why some players love the Imperial Guard - it really takes "balls of steel" for its soldiers to do what they do, whereas Space Marines are practically brainwashed into not breaking a sweat. Goes back to the whole thing about what people can relate to.

The Horus Heresy did not need to be turned into books.

That time period is supposed to be all "myths and legends".

Instead we found out it's all the same as 40k just less grimdark and super-super-men were walking about.

There's some folks arguing that 40k is dull because everything is being faught all for naught...

Isn't that the focus of the Heresy? The worst part is that we all know how it ends.

I've read all the HH novels except the most recent. Few were worthy of my time.

The first three were interesting. They had a lot of human characters and established a setting in a pre-40k world.

Remembrancers were great, they finally explained why there is so much art and sculpture in the 40k world.

Legion was awesome, mostly because of the revelation of twin primarchs and the Cabal basically explaining the reason everything is even happening.

Alot of people liked the Thousand Sons/Space Wolf books. IMHO boring.

I'm a massive Ultramarine fanboy and Know No Fear was one of my least favorite books. Fulgrim gets tons of screen time in his book, so don't Magnus, Logar, Horus, Johnson and Alpharius/Omegon.

Gully gets a couple of pages and then gets blown out a window.

He later comes back in a relatively lackluster way and wins the battle by saying "Sorry, had to get some fresh air. Let me just hit this win button real quick here...".

The HH novels have completely disovled the original feelings most people had about their marine armies.

Now the time of myths and legends (which was the greatest sorce of inspiration to create your own characters and themes) is gone. Now there is a set guide/time line that fills that spot.

Frecklesonfire wrote:If you want to relate to an imperial guardsman, buy some steel toe boots and be a construction worker, man up and read about real men, space marines.

Umm... that is, essentially, what I do for a living - I'm a labourer for a small construction company in the South of England which is awesome because each staff member is a tabletop wargamer & each has a deep interest in history - how lucky am I in my work-mates?

The real men are the Guardsmen. They step up to do the job, face xenos & things worse than anything their imagination can create and they hold the line. They know what fear is yet they don't always run. They feel fatigue yet they keep on fighting. They're not equipped in thick ceramite armour or carry boltguns but they still fight & can win. Who are the real men now? The superhumans or the men who fight their instinct for flight, who conquer their fear, who fight on despite exhaustion, who hold the line against overwhelming odds? I'm going with the Guardsmen myself. Plot armour Space Marines are all well and good if you're into them but they're not for me.

Lynata wrote:

Frecklesonfire wrote:Could you not find suitable non corrupt lords to bring forth as High lords? surely it can be done.

I'm sure it could. But what you're forgetting is that these guys are sitting there for a reason. They have such an enormous powerbase at their beck and call that any attempt to remove them would trigger extremely volatile repercussions - not to mention that they have already been grooming their successors, who are influential people as well and unlikely to just take a step back.
Ultimately, would it really be worth it? How "corrupt" are the High Lords, even? We know very little about them, and I'm sure they lead a very opulent lifestyle, but from all I've read cases like Vandire are the exception, not the rule. Can you define this "corruption" and how it would endanger the Imperium more than the civil war that would result out of an attempt to depose them?

Wardragoon wrote:I do believe that the Inquisition still has to bend some knee to the high lords, IIRC the High Lords are considered the voice of the Emperor, much like how papal law works. Sure they 'only' answer to the Emperor, but if the inquisition has any sense of survival it will stick behind the High Lords.

Hmm, that's an interesting notion. Officially (and if one were to go by the GW material), the books specifically state that "not even a High Lord" is beyond the Inquisition's reach. In fact, the Ordo Hereticus was founded specifically to prevent another Vandire. Yet still, with very few exceptions all the Inquisition's power is basically "rented" from other Imperial organisations, whose chain of command ends in the Imperial Senate.
If push comes to shove, it probably depends on whether the Inquisition's target is able to mobilise support from the other High Lords or whether those would lean back.

Lynata wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:I do believe that the Inquisition still has to bend some knee to the high lords, IIRC the High Lords are considered the voice of the Emperor, much like how papal law works. Sure they 'only' answer to the Emperor, but if the inquisition has any sense of survival it will stick behind the High Lords.

Hmm, that's an interesting notion. Officially (and if one were to go by the GW material), the books specifically state that "not even a High Lord" is beyond the Inquisition's reach. In fact, the Ordo Hereticus was founded specifically to prevent another Vandire. Yet still, with very few exceptions all the Inquisition's power is basically "rented" from other Imperial organisations, whose chain of command ends in the Imperial Senate.
If push comes to shove, it probably depends on whether the Inquisition's target is able to mobilise support from the other High Lords or whether those would lean back.

Honestly, this may be why the Special Condition was created was to gun for those with massive political connections.

Wow, i got gang banged on that last post aha, i'm a construction worker and today we had a concrete day and i actually poked my head out of the trench as it was pouring with rain and thought if i had a las carbine and that drug they take i'm pretty much a imperial guardsman right now lol. In my opinion, the imp is just thrown into 40k to make it more believable. I haven't read the Cain novels but from all the books Ive read they do nothing but poop themselves, cry, and die pathetically. except for like a handful..... i cant relate to that. I can relate to being honorable, obeying, completing my duty, manning up man i totally feel like a space marine at work The crappy work days just remind me of how many people really would just give themselves to chaos if the universe was real. Some days i would give myself to Khorne and just slaughter everyone around me. Anyways back on topic, the high lords will be brought back to justice, and i do think the timeline / story of 40k will move on, and they will be replaced, most likely by a primarch. As far as i'm concerned the high lords are just as corrupt as chaos lords, and its no wonder that chapters seclude themselves from Terra and other chapters, and plainly hate one another.. Iron hands, Salamanders to name a few really see the lords for what they are, even Pedro Kantor makes a comment on the corruption in hierarchy in Rynns world, and from what Ive learned the fists are a proud and honorable chapter..

And one day the inquisition will realize they can take the high lords nuts from their mouths and think for themselves, and do what their meant to do, oh ya stop corruption mainly..

Frecklesonfire wrote:Wow, i got gang banged on that last post aha, i'm a construction worker and today we had a concrete day and i actually poked my head out of the trench as it was pouring with rain and thought if i had a las carbine and that drug they take i'm pretty much a imperial guardsman right now lol. In my opinion, the imp is just thrown into 40k to make it more believable. I haven't read the Cain novels but from all the books Ive read they do nothing but poop themselves, cry, and die pathetically. except for like a handful..... i cant relate to that. I can relate to being honorable, obeying, completing my duty, manning up man i totally feel like a space marine at work The crappy work days just remind me of how many people really would just give themselves to chaos if the universe was real. Some days i would give myself to Khorne and just slaughter everyone around me. Anyways back on topic, the high lords will be brought back to justice, and i do think the timeline / story of 40k will move on, and they will be replaced, most likely by a primarch. As far as i'm concerned the high lords are just as corrupt as chaos lords, and its no wonder that chapters seclude themselves from Terra and other chapters, and plainly hate one another.. Iron hands, Salamanders to name a few really see the lords for what they are, even Pedro Kantor makes a comment on the corruption in hierarchy in Rynns world, and from what Ive learned the fists are a proud and honorable chapter..

And one day the inquisition will realize they can take the high lords nuts from their mouths and think for themselves, and do what their meant to do, oh ya stop corruption mainly..

Read Gaunt's Ghost's, occasionally there are guardsmen that huddle and cry, but for the most part they stand their ground against the horror's of Chaos.

Frecklesonfire wrote:I can relate to being honorable, obeying, completing my duty, manning up man i totally feel like a space marine at work

When I'm looking at, say, the Mordian Iron Guard and, say, the Flesh Tearers, I know who is more honorable, obeying, completing their duty and manning up ... and it's not the Marines.
Then again, you did mention how you'd go all Khornate on people, so perhaps you did pick the right side after all.

As for the corruption ... thoughts of sedition and high treason are corruption, are they not?

Frecklesonfire wrote:Could you not find suitable non corrupt lords to bring forth as High lords?

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

They aren't necessarily evil at the start, but with great power comes great responsibility and perks! Like with most things there are good and bad eggs.

Wardragoon wrote:
I do believe that the Inquisition still has to bend some knee to the high lords, IIRC the High Lords are considered the voice of the Emperor, much like how papal law works. Sure they 'only' answer to the Emperor, but if the inquisition has any sense of survival it will stick behind the High Lords.

Maybe it's the other way around? A coin in the palm too turn a blind eye, the last thing a High Lord would want is an Inquisitor sniffing around.

Pilau Rice wrote:Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
They aren't necessarily evil at the start, but with great power comes great responsibility and perks! Like with most things there are good and bad eggs.

As the Space Marines have proven themselves. *nods*