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Made in us
Willing Inquisitorial Excruciator




Ephrata, PA

I got lucky, I went to school for 3 semester, had to drop out because of financial reasons, but paid cash for my time there. Now my work literally just put in a tuition reimbursement program. If I go to school for anything dealing with my company they will reimburse me for every penny that went towards my education, loans and all. Hopefully going back in the spring to be an electrician.

Bane's P&M Blog, pop in and leave a comment
3100+

 feeder wrote:
Frazz's mind is like a wiener dog in a rabbit warren. Dark, twisting tunnels, and full of the certainty that just around the next bend will be the quarry he seeks.

 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Frazzled wrote:So they were guaranteed by a credit worthy counter. Now try to get an unguaranteed unsecured student loan.


I'm still trying to figure out where this is going after debunking the "no more private loans" thing. Are you saying banks should be forced to give loans to people who aren't creditworthy?

Students often have no or poor credit. By definition, the free market will not provide these risky bets with loans that can be discharged via bankruptcy. What's the problem here?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Ouze wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So they were guaranteed by a credit worthy counter. Now try to get an unguaranteed unsecured student loan.


I'm still trying to figure out where this is going after debunking the "no more private loans" thing. Are you saying banks should be forced to give loans to people who aren't creditworthy?

Students often have no or poor credit. By definition, the free market will not provide these risky bets with loans that can be discharged via bankruptcy. What's the problem here?


I'm saying banks won't give private loans for student support now, not without guarantees. I'm saying the government, instead of a mere guarantee (which they due to SBA, vet mortgages and a variety of programs) which did not historically allow them to get all 1984 like, can now go after social security and all kinds of things, because, well they are the government, and when you owe the government you owe the most powerful loan shark in the world.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker





I don't even KNOW anymore.

Feh. I didn't really expect to get SS anyways. I'm sure that my student loan will be my constant companion until the day I die.
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Frazzled wrote:
Ouze wrote:
Frazzled wrote:So they were guaranteed by a credit worthy counter. Now try to get an unguaranteed unsecured student loan.


I'm still trying to figure out where this is going after debunking the "no more private loans" thing. Are you saying banks should be forced to give loans to people who aren't creditworthy?

Students often have no or poor credit. By definition, the free market will not provide these risky bets with loans that can be discharged via bankruptcy. What's the problem here?


I'm saying banks won't give private loans for student support now, not without guarantees. I'm saying the government, instead of a mere guarantee (which they due to SBA, vet mortgages and a variety of programs) which did not historically allow them to get all 1984 like, can now go after social security and all kinds of things, because, well they are the government, and when you owe the government you owe the most powerful loan shark in the world.


Why do you keep saying things that you know are not true?

Private loans have always been harder to get, because they could be discharged via bankruptcy. As such they were riskier. This is not new and was the policy in the mid-90's, and presumably since students started going to college.

So far as the US government going after people on SSA for Student Loan debts, they've been doing that since 2001, and much much longer for other federal debts. Nothing has changed since the recent revamp.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

When I went to school the government could not touch your social security and government guaranteed student loans could be dischareged in bankruptcy.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Those must have been the days - discharging student loans without fear, no AIDS, no never-ending war, somewhat less rigged elections... but I guess we have internet now, so it sort of evens out.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Chicago

Frazzled wrote:When I went to school the government could not touch your social security and government guaranteed student loans could be dischareged in bankruptcy.

Yes, but when you went to school, there were only 2 classes: Firebuilding 101: How To Make Fire and Mechanical Engineering 305: Round or Square, What Make Better Wheel?

6000pts

DS:80S++G++M-B-I+Pw40k98-D++A++/areWD-R+T(D)DM+

What do Humans know of our pain? We have sung songs of lament since before your ancestors crawled on their bellies from the sea.

Join the fight against the zombie horde! 
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

How about instead of complaining about student loans lets complain about rising tuition costs.

Like, why the hell do I have to be a technology fee for computer labs in the library I will NEVER USE. Why the heck do they even need 8 computer labs when they are never being used!

Or why do I have to pay (with my tuition) to have some pop star come sing on campus at the end of the year, plus a smaller lesser known one every month.

But god forbid we need some new glassware for the chem lab.

   
Made in us
Brutal Black Orc




The Empire State

sparkywtf wrote:How about instead of complaining about student loans lets complain about rising tuition costs.

Like, why the hell do I have to be a technology fee for computer labs in the library I will NEVER USE. Why the heck do they even need 8 computer labs when they are never being used!

Or why do I have to pay (with my tuition) to have some pop star come sing on campus at the end of the year, plus a smaller lesser known one every month.

But god forbid we need some new glassware for the chem lab.


haha

Every year at Binghamton University I had to pay a 300-some dollar "Student Activity fee" every semester (600 a year).

I never noticed this at first until I took a closer look at my bill. I asked the student tuition office what it was.

It was to cover the cost of any equipment I may use or activities I may be a part of on the campus (like using the basketball court, they gym, etc.)

I did none of that. All my activities took place outside of campus (I lived off campus). Ad the fee was not optional. I was forced to pay 600 bucks a year for a serviced I never used.



Then there was the 120 dollar a semester "technology fee" for use of internet/computer and printer ink.

I uses their wifi but not sure it justifies 120 bucks a semester.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/09 15:19:03


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





sparkywtf wrote:But god forbid we need some new glassware for the chem lab.


Why the fething hell would a school waste money on a chem lab? You can't play basketball in a chem lab, and you certainly can't play football there.
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

Chongara wrote:
sparkywtf wrote:But god forbid we need some new glassware for the chem lab.


Why the fething hell would a school waste money on a chem lab? You can't play basketball in a chem lab, and you certainly can't play football there.


Sure you can, we did it all the time! Well the football part at least. Gotta do something while you wait on the UV spec because you only have one in the budget and everyone needs to use it at once.

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

College funding is really wacked out these days. A lot of people actually use the computer labs because they don't have computers of their own, or printers.

Activity fees though are a scam. They know probably about 50-60% of the student body will never use any of the services, so they can charge $300 and keep it all. Same with campus clincs (which are almost exclusively used by female students) and student government, which really just takes money from students and does pretty much nothing with it.

On the PASSHE schools actually did away with its entire Anthropology department; so they could fund an arcade.

My college, rather than replace the dorms from the 1950's that have NO air conditioning or heat control, decided to renovate the 10 year old activities center to have 30 large rooms for events that no one ever uses because there are never any events... Though that one is also on the student union which was just... Idiotic.

OH A god forbid we actually update the school library to have books published after 1988.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/09 16:08:29


   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

hotsauceman1 wrote:Am i the only one who wishes that Higher Education was Free? I mean surely it would be better for our country to have an educated populace with little to no barrier to entry?


You're not the only one, but I'm not with you.

As someone else pointed out, a lot of people go to college who really should be in a trade school or simply just working. Not everyone needs a higher education to be successful. What's more, because of the number of people who are getting college degrees, they're becoming less useful to determine who really knows anything.

My wife, before going to college, worked as a receptionist at an accounting firm. She wouldn't get that job these days, because most places now require their receptionist to have a degree. (In what, making coffee and answering the phone?) There are already too many people getting useless liberal arts degrees and then complaining that they can't get a good job, despite that their only "skill" is a knowledge of 16th century literature.

And these are the people who are graduating. We're not even including the 44 percent of students who cannot seem to graduate in six(!) years. Cited from here. The truth of the matter is that most US high school educations do not prepare a student for the sort of study required at college, and the majority of students are not mature enough to dedicate themselves to their studies, rather than viewing college as a six year "growth experience" (read as party).

I don't think my taxes should support this system. If someone wants to enrich themselves by spending a couple of years reading Chaucer and Byron, let them do it on their own dime.

Now, a system that rewarded people who actually went to college to learn and proved that they did so, I could get behind that. It wouldn't hurt the country to have an incentive for people to maintain good grades in employable majors. Of course, there already is an incentive for these people - they get hired, and get good jobs. I've not met someone who got a 3.0 or better in a science-based program who didn't get hired out of college.

   
Made in us
Brutal Black Orc




The Empire State

Campus Health Clinic is pretty much used for free condoms.

our health clinic had a picnic table on display with 1000's of condoms in glass bowls. It was rather colorful with the different types cf condoms.

but if you want magnum condoms, you are going to have to steal them off campus, like one of my school's basketball players

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/11646504


 
   
Made in us
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine






Frazzled wrote:When I went to school the government could not touch your social security and government guaranteed student loans could be dischareged in bankruptcy.


No, the debt holder could just take you to court for failure to pay, in which case you could end up in jail or losing your house, which are a tad bit worse then losing 100 buck on SS check. I don't see how this is different from a bank foreclosing on a house

H.B.M.C. wrote:
"Balance, playtesting - a casual gamer craves not these things!" - Yoda, a casual gamer.
Three things matter in marksmanship -
location, location, location
MagickalMemories wrote:How about making another fist?
One can be, "Da Fist uv Mork" and the second can be, "Da Uvver Fist uv Mork."
Make a third, and it can be, "Da Uvver Uvver Fist uv Mork"
Eric
 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

LordofHats wrote:College funding is really wacked out these days. A lot of people actually use the computer labs because they don't have computers of their own, or printers.


Oh, the printers! I actually had a job before getting my doctorate, so it wasn't a huge deal to me, but when you're a graduate student (or a serious undergraduate student) free printing is amazing. I have personally killed at least 3 trees during my academic career. That doesn't sound like much, but there is a ton of paper in a single tree.

LordofHats wrote:
Activity fees though are a scam. They know probably about 50-60% of the student body will never use any of the services, so they can charge $300 and keep it all. Same with campus clincs (which are almost exclusively used by female students) and student government, which really just takes money from students and does pretty much nothing with it.


I agree about activity fees* and student government**, but the campus clinic is a lifesaver when you need a condom, or some sweet, sweet Plan B.



*Sort of, if you go to a small private school, you generally get good value for your money. And if you don't, that ~900 USD is nothing against tuition.
**Again, this varies by school. While in undergrad our student government actually did some cool stuff (mostly buy beer), but in grad school the student government did, essentially, nothing. In part its because the student government in undergrad had a lot of leeway, but another part of it was that the student government in undergrad drew from a group of kids that weren't average.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

I second that college tuitions are whacked these days...

A loan is a loan... every attempt must be made to pay it back. It's basic contract law... doesn't matter if it's a private or government loan.

However, tf the student can't find a job based on their degree to pay back the loan, then there must be a better way to settle the debt. Would making it dischargable help? Then we'd back to the mess prior to change. Restructured payment based on income? (there's a lot of angles to attack this).

What i don't understand is this...

You cannot discharge any school loans now... so, why are the banks/gov charging interest? The interest "rate" is typically made to cover admin cost, respectable profit margins and RISKS. (anyhoo that's a diff discussion)

How's this for an idea?

(I'm sure it can be gamed, like any system buuut)

Most private universities have a large enough money in their foundations that could pull this off... instead of charging the student per semester/fees/books/board... the duration of their education, it's free. Once they graduate and start working in the real world, pay a tithe (for lack of better term) from every paycheck for "x" defined years (15-20yrs).

So what this does is place a certain degree of risk back onto the university and forces them to "educate/train" the students, rather than pushing paper diplomas out the door or promoting non-marketable degrees.

Like the previous poster said... I'm not planning on my SS... so, I'll trade my future SS to resolve my current school debt... any takers?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 04:14:48


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






MY community College is getting 2 new building installed. somehow we can afford that, but they cant afford to make it less then 75 dollers a unit?
Thank god i got a fee waiver.
But the mot evil things schools do is force you to buy a book at their book store that is un returnable.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Powerful Orc Big'Un





Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...

As someone who is hitting college next year, I gotta say that between the student loan situation, the ridiculous tuition, the idiots who want to party, and the overabundance of college degree holders, I'm not too excited about it. I am going to a community college 20 minutes from home, so I won't be paying for dorm/food and tuition shouldn't be too crazy. I know of people who have had to pay $1,500 a month just for those first two expenses. And don't get me started on textbook costs.

After I finish my 2 years in community college, I'm probably gonna finish my degree, though trade school isn't out of the question. I really don't know. I see all these kids who get so excited when they get admitted to these big universities, convinced by the media and the public school system that college = automatic admittance to the American "dream". I can only see the mountains of debt and liability that will follow them through their lives, making it nigh impossible to improve their place in life. It's severely depressing.

_Tim?

   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

The best thing my university has going for it is textbook rentals.

I pay an extra 70 bucks a semester in tuition and get all* my books for free

*anything you don't have to write in. workbooks cost extra

I would gladly pay double that a semester to keep doing it, saying they only have to buy the book once.

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

dogma wrote:Oh, the printers! I actually had a job before getting my doctorate, so it wasn't a huge deal to me, but when you're a graduate student (or a serious undergraduate student) free printing is amazing. I have personally killed at least 3 trees during my academic career. That doesn't sound like much, but there is a ton of paper in a single tree.


Yep. People can complain about cutting down forests, but paper is honestly one of the most efficient ways to make use of a tree, cause you can make a TON of paper from a single trunk.

LordofHats wrote:but the campus clinic is a lifesaver when you need a condom, or some sweet, sweet Plan B.


That's honestly kind of my point though. At party schools it certainly works wonders, but at my school there was probably this extremely small minority of students who actually had real medical conditions that required the clinic. Other than that, I was paying so the aholes two doors down could screw their girl friends (and their not-girlfriends) and so the girls could get their pills. It pissed me off that I had to pay $120 so that they could keep me up all night with all their ing .

Extreme statement yes, but I seriously hated that so much. Some of us actually go to school to get a degree. Not get drunk, party all week, and screw girls whose names we'll never remember.

*Sort of, if you go to a small private school, you generally get good value for your money. And if you don't, that ~900 USD is nothing against tuition.


I actually only paid about $150 for activities fees. Most of the activities were actually run by the student union who I paid $150 from. An economics major actually did a survey of the school's funds and found that the Student Union was hording about $50,000 and spending it on things that we still don't know what. It caused a minor stir but most of the student body didn't care.

**Again, this varies by school. While in undergrad our student government actually did some cool stuff (mostly buy beer),


That pisses me off though. Again, I hate paying $150 so the guys down the hall can get drunk as hell and keep me up all night. That said, my student government actually just brought in bands to do concerts about once a month. Concerts I never went to but a fair number of people did and they used them for fundraising. Other than that though I never saw my SG do anything useful. They certainly did nothing to deal with a certain teacher numerous complaints were leveled against for unfair grading practices (you could do the whole test correctly and she'd still give you a D... cause... just cause).

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/08/10 22:38:54


   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

LordofHats wrote:I actually only paid about $150 for activities fees. Most of the activities were actually run by the student union who I paid $150 from. An economics major actually did a survey of the school's funds and found that the Student Union was hording about $50,000 and spending it on things that we still don't know what. It caused a minor stir but most of the student body didn't care.

**Again, this varies by school. While in undergrad our student government actually did some cool stuff (mostly buy beer),


That pisses me off though. Again, I hate paying $150 so the guys down the hall can get drunk as hell and keep me up all night. That said, my student government actually just brought in bands to do concerts about once a month. Concerts I never went to but a fair number of people did and they used them for fundraising. Other than that though I never saw my SG do anything useful. They certainly did nothing to deal with a certain teacher numerous complaints were leveled against for unfair grading practices (you could do the whole test correctly and she'd still give you a D... cause... just cause).


I think most student governments horde tons of money. I know some get paid even for their "service". And the concerts always suck. We had something every friday night in out student union, usually some DJ or something. At most you would see about 40 people in there, 10 of which are working, about 20 that know the DJ, and the rest who just walked in to see what all the racket was. Even the end of the year concert (the big one) is pretty crappy, as its usually aimed towards screaming preteen girls.

   
Made in us
[ARTICLE MOD]
Fixture of Dakka






Chicago

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: so I won't be paying for dorm/food ... I know of people who have had to pay $1,500 a month just for those first two expenses.


Most people pay $1500/month for food and lodging, you act as though that is a big expense. Given that 'dorm' includes water, electric, heating/cooling, as well as cleaning for common areas, landscaping for communal areas, and probably a number of other things that I'm not including, I don't think you can claim that as an exorbitant cost - you would need to pay for shelter and food if you weren't in college too. (Unless mommy & daddy are paying for you, of course).

This picture was taken in 2000 (In San Francisco):
Spoiler:



So, $1500 for a furnished studio + food + utilities 12 years later seems reasonable.


And don't get me started on textbook costs.


The textbook situation is indeed a scam, with publishers deliberately doing "new editions" every semester so that you cannot even get the books used.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/10 22:48:20


   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






And here is something else, They d books that you put in a binder, making it impossible to sell them back.

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Room and board at some schools is exhoborant. Mine for example charged 2,700 a semester, which really isn't that bad when you consider everything you were getting (its actually awesome, way cheaper than most places you can rent). The problem was that there was no AC, making the 100 degree weather for the first 3 weeks of the semester and then when winter came there was no heat so the rooms were freezing at 50 degrees.

Other than that dorm prices are actually pretty good deals, as are the meal plans.

And yes. Text books are a scam. Especially when you realize you honestly can get by with most classes without ever using them! The only classes where I actually used my books were my biology class and my history classes. The rest I skipped on.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/11 00:11:39


   
Made in us
Powerful Orc Big'Un





Somewhere in the steamy jungles of the south...

@ Redbeard: When you think of it that way, $1,500 is not that bad. But when you consider that you will be paying ~$10,000 per school year, it seems pretty high. I know people whose kids got into college w/o having to pay tuition because of scholarships, and they are still struggling to pay for room and board, even with the kid working.

Plus, since I'm from a family roughly the 2nd quintile of income earners (those earning $42,500 a year or less) having to $10,000 a year for room and board is pretty daunting, especially considering that I have 3 other siblings that need taken care of. I really want to avoid student loans, and my family can't have the burden of room and board as well as tuition and other costs foisted upon them so I'm just gonna have to spend my college years going to class, working, and studying. No partying for this boy. Still, I don't want to be a burden on my family, so all the work should be worth it in the end. Or would have been, when college degrees actually make you significantly more employable.

Also, @LordofHats: How do you not use the textbooks? Are you just a really fast note-taker?

_Tim?

   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:Also, @LordofHats: How do you not use the textbooks? Are you just a really fast note-taker?


I've only had a few teachers who don't cover material in the book. By that I mean that there is nothing in the textbook I need to know, that will not eventually be covered in class. On top of that, there's this new thing called The Internet that ends up making textbooks for a lot of subjects kind of obsolete.

Unless you're in a science program or a liberal arts program where reading is vital (Literature, History, etc) I honestly see no reason a capable student can't succeed without the textbook. It takes more work but it saves you $120 on a book you're never going to use again. And note taking skills are vital, textbook or no textbook

Take my creative writing class for example. I could have paid $89 for the book, which was basically just an anthology of short stories by various authors and basic explanation of literary concepts, or I could just recognize most short stories from before 1980 are now available for free or for less than $1 on the internet, and that there are dozens of places to learn the literary definitions of motif, theme, and foreshadowing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2012/08/11 02:20:49


   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Hell, for lower level science classes, sometimes you don't need the books there, either-- bio one and two I didn't need the book for, felt like a waste really...

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

It's especially absurd for computer science courses. Why on earth anyone would pay $200 for a book on C++ when there are at least three dozen sites on the internet that teach you C++ for free is beyond me.

   
 
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