Switch Theme:

Tank shocking things off the board edge.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Table edge = death. Death is bad. Harm is bad. Unharmed is good. Being on the table is good. So no pushing things off the table. If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME. The rule does not support that you can push things off the table. Stop trying to find loopholes in the rules. I've been telling the stores near me what you guys think and there is a big anti-dakka movement going on. It's looking at rules like this that make you guys look bad.

The world is not flat.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Anderton, if you are badmouthing the website because you disagree with a few people on it, you're the coward. And you're asking to be banned.

Get a better argument and a better attitude.

You have been warned.

-The Management.

Adepticon 2015: Team Tourney Best Imperial Team- Team Ironguts, Adepticon 2014: Team Tourney 6th/120, Best Imperial Team- Cold Steel Mercs 2, 40k Championship Qualifier ~25/226
More 2010-2014 GT/Major RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 78-20-9 // SW: 8-1-2 (Golden Ticket with SW), BA: 29-9-4 6th Ed GT & RTT Record (W/L/D) -- CSM: 36-12-2 // BA: 11-4-1 // SW: 1-1-1
DT:70S++++G(FAQ)M++B++I+Pw40k99#+D+++A+++/sWD105R+++T(T)DM+++++
A better way to score Sportsmanship in tournaments
The 40K Rulebook & Codex FAQs. You should have these bookmarked if you play this game.
The Dakka Dakka Forum Rules You agreed to abide by these when you signed up.

Maelstrom's Edge! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




All I'm saying is going over rules like this is one reason people don't like this site. Some people are trying to take advantages of rules so that they can win games. It's up to people like me to call them on it. The rules do not support pushing units and vehicles off the table in any way. Now if someone comes in here and sees this and has support for doing it then they are taking the FUN out of a game.

Say my unit of Space Marines regrouped next to the table edge and I get tanked shocked. I roll my leadership and make it. You are going to tell me that I have to lose my unit because going off the table is the shortest distance. Come on people this shouldn't be a hard thing to figure out. UNHARMED is just that.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I believe the actual wording of models leaving the table edge is "counted as destroyed" but they are not actually destroyed.

So you are out of the game and unharmed.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME.

So do your opponents generally have much fun when you're branding them a 'coward' for having a different interpretation of a rule to yours?


All I'm saying is going over rules like this is one reason people don't like this site. Some people are trying to take advantages of rules so that they can win games.

See, the problem here is simply that, even after it has been explained to you on numerous occasions, you still don't understand what YMTC is all about.

We're not interested in taking advantage of rules. We are all fully aware that it's a game, and the main point is to have fun.

What you consistently ignore is that for some people, the game is more fun when they actually understand how the rule are supposed to work. What we discuss here is what the rules actually say. Not so that we can take advantage of loopholes... but simply so that when something weird happens mid-game, we know what the rules actually say about it. If you go back through the various rules discussions here, you'll find numerous cases where the concensus fell one way, but many players choose to play otherwise.

But, whatever. I have no doubt that you'll completely ignore what I've just written and continue your little crusade to right the 'wrongs' of Dakka culture. So I'll just go back to hiding under the couch, coward that I am. Somebody please protect me from the scary toy soldiers... Oh please no, God, the rules! The rules!

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





All I'm saying is going over the rules like this is the reason I like this site.

If anyone wants to argue intent, fairness, or fluff they can post somewhere else.
I was looking at Warseer and they were arguing how warp scream affects models in cover. One guy was giving rules quotes and examples and the others were totally ignoring him and saying he was wrong without saying how.
This site is the one that is most technical and that makes it the best to me.

That said, I think vehicals can be destroyed by tank shock. They move "the shortest distance", are unharmed by the tankshock, and end up off the table where they can't come back, and that's the way I'm going to play it.

Table Edge = Danger = Stay Away.


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in jp
The Hammer of Witches





A new day, a new time zone.

Posted By Mannahnin on 03/14/2006 5:47 AM
Anderton, if you are badmouthing the website because you disagree with a few people on it, you're the coward. And you're asking to be banned.

Get a better argument and a better attitude.

You have been warned.

-The Management.


It's not like Airman Anderton is a real person anyway.  My vote is he's either an ALT for Mauleed, or Yakface's evil secondary personality.

"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..."
Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

Actually I think his quote about it being unharmed is a sticking point here. Your claim that because the unit isn't taking wounds means that it's unharmed doesn't exactly hold water.

It specifically says "otherwise the unit is unharmed" -- any harm caused by the actual move itself -- e.g., being chased off the table -- doesn't apply.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

It's not like Airman Anderton is a real person anyway. My vote is he's either an ALT for Mauleed, or Yakface's evil secondary personality.


Ooh. An alt for Ed? Unlikely. Intriguing, certainly. But unlikely. I like the idea of Yakface's evil secondary personality though. The mild-mannered, fight-stopping, problem-solving mod of YMDC has a sinister alter-ego: The Captain!

That's fun.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Posted By CaptAnderton on 03/14/2006 5:40 AM
Table edge = death. Death is bad. Harm is bad. Unharmed is good. Being on the table is good. So no pushing things off the table. If you honestly believe this is a goo tactic to use you are a coward. Whats the number 1 rule in 40K? To have fun playing a GAME. The rule does not support that you can push things off the table. Stop trying to find loopholes in the rules. I've been telling the stores near me what you guys think and there is a big anti-dakka movement going on. It's looking at rules like this that make you guys look bad.

The world is not flat.
 
Actually, for starters, the warhammer world IS flat. i find it amusing that you use so many real world analogies for this game.
 
Pssssst ...... THIS ISN'T REAL!
 
And secondly, if your units are so close to the board edge that this happens to you then you deserve it and YOU are the coward, as clearly stated in the rules.
Repeat after me capt, hugging board edges is for cowards, The BBB says so,hugging board edges is for cowards The BBB says so ........
 
 



The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance -- it is the illusion of knowledge 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Careful... he'll send the anti-dakka movement after you...

 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





Posted By Mannahnin on 03/14/2006 4:02 AM
Eh. I am loathe to add text like that.

If you're going to do that the rule could just as easily be read as" if="" overrung="" a="" tank="" and="" individual="" models="" would="" end="" up="" underneath="" vehicle="" they="" must="" be="" moved="" out="" of="" way="" by="" shortest="" route="" possible="" but="" otherwise="" unit="" is="" unharmed="" (place="" them="" into="" the="" nearest="" open="" space)[/b="">

That would be more in keeping with the meaning of the word "unharmed". Forcing a unit off the table (by means of a failed Morale test) is clearly one of the main uses of Tank Shock, and it would be silly to think that the designers didn?t think of that as harm.



I'm not adding text so much as I am examining sentence structure.

If the unit is overrun by a tank they must be moved out of the way by the shortest route possible, but otherwise they are unharmed.

The meaning is clear. They are not harmed by being run over by the tank. One cause and one effect, and one explanation of what other effects do not occur as a result of the cause. The cause in this case is purely 'being run over by a tank.' This cause cannot bring about any results other than forcing the unit to move out of the way.

The 'forcing to move out of the way' can cause other effects not brought about by the tank shocking.

If you're forced to move into a minefield or a dangerous terrain area you are still moving (.. forced to move ..) and suffer the consequences of moving (which are not consequences of being tank shocked). If the text said "place the models out of the way of the tank" I would be convinced, but it says they are forced to move and as such are subject to the limitations and consequences of movement.

And honestly, I'm not looking for loopholes to win games, because I don't play but one army that uses tanks (and that only infrequently). I'm looking for an answer to the 'board edge forcefield' tactic people use on their rear armor, which I find to be just as ridiculous and just as UN FUN as having my crap shocked off the board edge. So far this seems like a pretty legitimate tactic. There's no reasoning against it other than 'it says unharmed' but as I think Insaniak pointed out, they're not even harmed! They're 'counted' as destroyed but they really just left the battlefield and were not harmed (see the text on fleeing troops for this - it says they've left the battlefield to go tell stories of woe and defeat to their pals).




   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

I agree with Longshot. But it doesn't fully satisfy the problems with Tank Shock as we still don't know what happens to units (Infantry or Vehicle) which are not pushed off the board edge but are either pushed into impassable terrain or enemy units.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Rampaging Carnifex





In the case of impassible terrain, you walk around it, as you can't move through difficult terrain or within 1" of an enemy unit (and you are directed to move by the rules).

The only question that remains is whether you can move off he board edge outside of fleeing or deviation. It has been established that the board edge is not the same as impassible terrain due to the way that fleeing models treat them (they move around difficult terrain, but off the board edge). The rules seem to support being forced to move off the board edge by a variety of means but the bone of contention is (in my mind) whether or not this is limited only to specific cases (fleeing, deviation) or to any sort of involuntary movement.

My tendency is to say that any involuntary movement off the board edge counts as leaving the battle since the game mechanics are so consistent on this. However, I wouldn't mind if some more folks went over it for things I've missed or threw the question at the GW rules folks who will be doing the main rulebook FAQ soon.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Two things will remain in my mind.

1. Deepstriking can take you off the board.

2. Failing moral checks can take y ou off the board edge.

If you do not deepstrike and you make your moral check you can't be forced off the table. No matter how many fluffy words you use to say you can tank shock them off you can't. You have a - responce and a + responce to Tank shock. You can't have both. No cake and eat it also.

I'd like to see you pull this on someone and see if they play you again.

"Hey man sorry. You have to go off the board in the shortest distance and that takes you off the table."

"WHAT?"

"Yep it's in the rule book and Dakka supports it."

"I don't what you have read if I make my test I'm good to go."

"Not by RAW."

"So do you want to play a game or is winning by coming up with bs rules your way of having fun?"

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Captain, what do you say happens to a unit that gets Tank Shocked and its only available path is off the edge of the table? Does it bounce back from the edge?

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Until I see in black and white.

"UNITS THAT PASS MORAL CHECK AND VEHICLES CAN BE TANKED SHOCKED OFF THE TABLE."

It will never happen in a game I play.

Again don't play like a coward. Even trying this in my store will get you laughed at. Might even get you pulled out back for an attitude ajustment.




I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





You have a - responce and a + responce to Tank shock.

Right, your models can run off the board edge or they can walk off it.

A morale check is for determining if a unit is "falling back" and will need to rally at the start of their next turn.
If they pass, you maintain control of their movement.
If they fail, they continue to fall back.

If they have to move off the board edge it doesn't matter if they did it in an orderly fashion or not.
Either way they are off the board and out of the game.

It will never happen in a game I play.

If that's your choice it's yours to make and the reason you shouldn't get bent out of shape over a rules interpretation. Even if it's one no one else is choosing to apply.

Anderton, answer Kilkrazy's question. What does happen in that instance?


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

Captain, how do they play it at your store? I am interested because the rules do not fully support the conclusion that a unit can be pushed off, but they do not fully support any other conclusion either, as far as I can tell.

I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






I would move them behind the tank that is now at the board edge. Since it does not state at what point during the charge they are moving, only that they end up the shortest distance possible, They could move up and out of the way before the tank comes in. I can't see any other way to play it without breaking rules, it may sound illogical but at least the rules are bing followed.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lets see...hmmm....Moves to the shortest unharmed place to go. So you'd move down the board edge away from the vehicle.

But wait.

I'll start modeling my units with red capes. This way when your tank come to shock me at the board edge I can pull it out of the way and watch your tank go off the edge and never return.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By Odd the Quiet on 03/15/2006 7:00 AM

Right, your models can run off the board edge or they can walk off it.

A morale check is for determining if a unit is "falling back" and will need to rally at the start of their next turn.
If they pass, you maintain control of their movement.
If they fail, they continue to fall back.

If they have to move off the board edge it doesn't matter if they did it in an orderly fashion or not.
Either way they are off the board and out of the game.

 

Actually, the rules only give the opportunity to go off the table when falling back to your own deployment edge after losing a morale check. The rules do not ever allow you to voluntarily walk run or tumble off of any of the other sides.


   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Posted By snooggums on 03/15/2006 9:52 AM
Actually, the rules only give the opportunity to go off the table when falling back to your own deployment edge after losing a morale check. The rules do not ever allow you to voluntarily walk run or tumble off of any of the other sides.



Actually, thats not quite true as of 4th edition.

If a model simply touches the edge, it is removed from play. You don't have to actually move off of the board, you simply have to touch the edge and you are gone.

Since any model can make a legal move up to the edge of the board, any model can now cause itself to be removed from play.

Basically:

P1: Any model can move anywhere on the board within its movement/assault phase, taking into account terrain, special rules, and that model's movement characteristic.

P2: The area up to the board edge is valid area for this movement.

P3: There is no rule stating that you cannot move up to the board edge and touch it (without crossing it).

P4: When a model touches the board edge, that model is removed from play.

P5: A model can touch the board edge without crossing it.

C: A model which makes a legal move ending in that model touching, but not necessarily crossing, the board edge is removed from play. Since this is a legal move, it need not be compulsory. I.E. the model can accidentially remove itself from play by touching the board edge.


"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




So by the edge logic you would never get units from reserves. Why? Because they start at the board edge and have to be removed from play. Man this game is getting easier to play by the Dakka rules. Man this saves so much time setting up models.

Any model touching a board edge is lost. Next time I play I'll move all my models to the board edge to give my opponent the fastest victory ever.

I know the rules. Do you? 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*

Now, does "reserves" state that they begin the turn on the board touching the edge, or does it say that they move on from the edge on the turn they arrive?
If its the first one, then that is an obvious rules contradiction and you'd have to use common sense to work it out.
If its the second, then placing the models on the board before the movement phase is an unofficial gaming-convention (in addition to giving you an illegal basewidth of extra movement). As the models are not yet on the board, they cannot touch the edge.

Either way, if you fail to move the reserves units away from the board edge during the movement phase on the turn they arrive, they they are definately destroyed.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*


Designer's Note: This is a purposefully harsh ruling to discourage players hugging table edges too closely with their forces instead of getting into the thick of the action.

Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By blue loki on 03/15/2006 10:39 AM
Hey, I didn't write the rules, I just read 'em. The designers explicitly say that if you touch the board edge you are gone. *Poof*


But can you quote them? I know about the one that is explicitly written with the example of keeping people from hugging thier own table edge to get a second leadership test to keep from running all the way off the table like they did in 3rd. Can you quote the rule(s) where you can touch any table edge voluntarily and be removed?

   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Sorry, no book on me. It looks like odd might have it with him. Odd could you post the bit before that designers note?

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The BGB doesn't specify which board edges.

It says:

LEAVING THE BATTLE

"Once a unit reaches the table edge it is cosidered to have left the immediate battle and may not return. Note there is no need for individual models in the unit to move "off" the table - once a model reaches the edge that unit has gone! The unit takes no further part in the battle and is removed, doubtless spreading tales of the unstoppable nature of the foes they were facing to their compatriots behind the front lines."


Nothing Can Kill The Grimace

Any conversation about composition scoring on DakkaDakka is the blind leading the blind.
Or the evil leading the blind, more accurately. - xtapl 
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






That chunck is pretty out of context. Does it say when falling back "once they reach the table edge" they are destroyed? Is it in the section for falling back and only talk about falling back when it has this line?

   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: