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The rules do not state that you can move off the board, except when falling back due to failing morale checks. Just being able to move is not the same as being able to move off the board. In chess for example you can move any distance with the queen in a straight line, but that does not mean you can move off the board. This is a similar situation.

In chess, the board is a clearly defined playing area. That's the difference... they haven't bothered defining an actual area of play in 40K for any purpose other than fleeing or deploying Reserves.

The rules do no define the board edge as any sort of barrier. There is no statement in the movement rules that defines the board edge, or the area of the room beyond the board, as being in any way impassable. Models are simply allowed to move their movement distance.

Models off-table are not (with the exception of Deep Strikers) defined as destroyed, damaged, or removed from play... they simply award VPs at the end of the game if they are not Vehicles, and if they were Falling Back play no further part in the game.

So within the rules as written, a model is allowed to move straight off the board if it wishes. A skimmer could presumably move off the board and fly around the room for a couple of turns, and then move back on again later... UNLESS you choose to take the rules given in the Regrouping section to apply to any model that touches the board edge for any reason.



Note that the above is merely going by RAW. I'm not advocating that you play that way... merely that it's what is provided by the rules. Common sense should tell you that the board is a defined playing area. But the rules simply don't cover how the models should interact with that boundary.

Posted By Kilkrazy on 03/15/2006 4:38 PM
That's settled then.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?

Heh, that's funny. Never thoght about that! Well, I'ld say they move out of the way. After all, the move required by tank shocking doesn't care if the model being pushed has no movement left (i.e. it moved its max last turn) or if some other rule would prevent it from moving (such as having deepstruck in last turn.) So I say an immobile vehicle would move. That's one way to deal with droppods!

The Tank Shock rules make an exception for vehicles that are immobile, or have equal or higher front AV.
They stop shockers 1" away.

Now, what about tank shocking targets who have no legal move open to them? What happens?

If a model can't move off the board edge or otherwise get out of the way, and fails it's morale check, I say it's crushed. If it passes it's leadership test, it gets a Death or Glory attempt. If that fails it is crushed.

Edit: removed statement concerning vehicles

The Tank Shock rules make an exception for vechicles that are immobile

Actually, they make an exception for vehicles that are immobilised, not vehicles that are immobile.

What's the difference?

So how exactly would a situation arise where the only way a unit can react to tank shock is by going off the table? Is there any way to do it, other than the unit is sitting by the board edge, sandwhiched between two pieces of impassable terrain, which is spaced just wide enough for the tank to get through?

Also, what else would have to have happened for this to allow the tank shocking player to win the game?

Y'know, Turn Signals on a Land Raider did a strip about tank shocking a unit right off the edge of the board once (Waugh!*crash!*) That's a good enough source to prove to me that it can be done.

What's the difference?

Something that is immobile doesn't move.
Something that is immobilised is prevented from moving.

A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobilised.

I see it as:
Something that is immobile can't move.

A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobile.

Furthermore, if a vehicle is "trapped on edge" and it can be pushed off the table, it will be. If it can't be pushed off the edge it will stop the shocker 1" away, as it can't legally move.

Of course none of this is RAW supported, I'm offering it as a possibility.

Edit:

Or more RAW wise. Immobilised vehicles "may not move for the rest of the game". After a pod is placed it may not move for the rest of the game and may be considered an "immobilised vehicle".

But that makes trapped vehicles not count as immobilsed if trapped as they can still move for the rest of the game. I say forcing off edge is possible.

A Drop Pod is immobile.
A vehicle suffering an immobilised Damage result is immobile.

Yes, both of those things are immobile. But only the damaged vehicle has been immobilised.

The rules for tank shock don't deal with immobile vehicles, only with immobilised ones.

Someone who is being pushed is moving. However, someone who is moving is not necessarily being pushed.
In the same way, an immobilised vehicle is immobile. An immobile vehicle is not necessarily immobilised.

Aww man, I give up. I going to go somewhere else for awhile. Good luck!

I'm going to go cheer up!

Edit: On second thought, that link isn't very nice. It isn't bad, it's just not nice. Go here instead.

Posted By insaniak on 03/15/2006 4:38 PM

In chess, the board is a clearly defined playing area. That's the difference... they haven't bothered defining an actual area of play in 40K for any purpose other than fleeing or deploying Reserves.

So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"? Chess is played on a chess board, the board is the area you can place and move your items. I think it is a perfect example of how the board edge is a clear boundary for the area in play.
Don't take lack of further posts as concession to being able to voluntarily move off the board or being able to move off and back on the board.

There's no concrete proof. Either you take the 'Leaving the Table' heading in the Regrouping section to be independent or you take it to be dependent. Since it gets its own heading 'Leaving the Table,' I am inclined to take it as independent. However, that's the crux of the issue right there and only an FAQ is going to clear it up.

Everyone here should understand what that rule is for. Units that have failed a test. That is all it's about. Nothing more and nothing less.

My problem is to understand what happens to a unit (infantry) that is required to move out of the way of Tank Shock, then take a test, but can't move out of the way.

Should it take the test where it stands? If it passes, what happens? Should it just not take the test? Then what happens?

Vehicles are an issue as well.

This is how I see it Kilkrazy,

If units can be pushed off edge, infantry failing its test will be pushed, infantry passing it's test will get a Death or Glory attempt and if that fails it is pushed, smaller mobile vehicles are pushed.

If units can't be pushed off edge, infantry failing it's test will be crushed, infantry passing it's test will get it's Death or Glory attempt and if that fails it is crushed, vechicles will stop shockers 1" away.

Kilkrazy: Where do you stand on "Leaving The Table" does it apply to any unit or only units falling back? How would you interpret the rules for the situation?

snooggums
So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"?

It might do, if it actually said that.

All it says is that "Most players use a 6'x4' gaming board made from chipboard on top of the table to extend their playing area."

Which, you have to admit, doesn't sound that much like a rule defining a playing area. Particularly if your gaming board is made of something other than chipboard

Basically, the rulebook gives a bare mention that the game is played on a board/table/area of floor. But it makes no effort to define the boundaries of that playing area, nor does it define how units interact with that (undefined) boundary, with the exception of units Falling Back or arriving from Reserves.

Kilkrazy
My problem is to understand what happens to a unit (infantry) that is required to move out of the way of Tank Shock, then take a test, but can't move out of the way.

Here's how I read it:
You declare that you are Tank Shocking a unit. You measure the movement distance, and determine the final position of the tank. Any models that would be underneath the tank once it reaches this position are moved out of the way by the shortest distance possible. There is nothing that says that this movement can not be in the direction from which the tank came.

The movement to get out of the way only affects models who would actually wind up underneath the tank when it reaches the end of its move: "If a unit is overrun by a tank, and individual models would end up underneath the vehicle..."

Any models in between the tank's start point and finish point do not need to be moved... only those that wind up under the tank when it has finished its move. Those models can simply be moved behind the tank, with the rest of the unit.

I can't think of any situation where the models would have nowhere to go.

STOP MAKING UP RULES. THERE IS A RULE. You move out of the way the shortest distance and you are unharmed. It's that simple.

Don't ever stop posting, CaptAnderton. I don't think we'd quite know what to do with ourselves!

I throw my lot in with the people who think you can tank shock infantry and vehicles off the board.

STOP MAKING UP RULES. THERE IS A RULE. You move out of the way the shortest distance and you are unharmed. It's that simple.

Who were you replying to? Because that's what I just said...

Posted By insaniak on 03/16/2006 2:23 PM

snooggums
So the beginning of the book where is says the game is played on a table, usually 4x6 or 4x8 doesn't "define the board"?

It might do, if it actually said that.

All it says is that "Most players use a 6'x4' gaming board made from chipboard on top of the table to extend their playing area."

Which, you have to admit, doesn't sound that much like a rule defining a playing area. Particularly if your gaming board is made of something other than chipboard

Basically, the rulebook gives a bare mention that the game is played on a board/table/area of floor. But it makes no effort to define the boundaries of that playing area, nor does it define how units interact with that (undefined) boundary, with the exception of units Falling Back or arriving from Reserves.

Logically, if the area is defined by the players, then whatever they determine to be their playing area would set the boundaries. With a permissive rule set, once you set a playing area you can only play in the playing area unless the rules allow you to do otherwise. All games that have a playing area follow this convention, and have any rules necissary should the boundary have a chance of being crossed. Most have a set measurement for the playing area, but 40k allows the players to set the final amount. This does not keep it from having a boundary at the edge of the playable area, and it doesn't need instructions on what happens if you touch a board edge because all you are doing is reaching the edge of the playable area and then you cannot go any further.

My warm and pleasantly tangy offer still stands, Cap'n.

Logically, if the area is defined by the players, then whatever they determine to be their playing area would set the boundaries. With a permissive rule set, once you set a playing area you can only play in the playing area unless the rules allow you to do otherwise. All games that have a playing area follow this convention, and have any rules necissary should the boundary have a chance of being crossed.

Actually, that's a fair point.

In which case, the only time you can cross the boundary is when specifically allowed by the rules... which would be when Falling Back, or when arriving from Reserves.

Unless, of course, you choose to apply the 'touching the board edge' rule from the Regrouping rules to any situation where a model touches the board edge... which I think is a bit of a stretch.

If a model 'reaches' the board edge it is counted removed and counted as destroyed.

Reserves move on from the board edge, they never touch it.

So if you walk up to it you're gone, baby.

I think that rule applies to every scenario not just falling back. It is a general rule, meant to apply to any of a half-dozen situations where you would be forced to move in XX direction (fleeing, scattering, tank shocking, warp spider teleportation).

For the last damned time, the rule does not say you are unharmed by your movement. It says you are unharmed by the tank shock. It is quite clear. Dangerous terrain, minefields, etc, it's all fair game because the tank shock doesn't do it, the subsequent movement does. It never says you 'move safely out of the way,' it says you 'move out of the way by the shortest route possible.' Period. What it means (reading comprehension powers activate) is that you suffer no other direct effects from the tank shock, that the movement is the only one.

I think that rule applies to every scenario not just falling back. It is a general rule, meant to apply to any of a half-dozen situations where you would be forced to move in XX direction (fleeing, scattering, tank shocking, warp spider teleportation).

Except that if it were a general rule, it would be in the Movement section, rather than in the Moralle section. While it doesn't explicitly state that it only applies to models Falling Back, it is in the section that deals with Regrouping (and failure to do so), which is referring to models who are Falling Back.

There is nothing in that entry that suggests that it applies to any other situation.

There is nothing in that entry that suggests that it applies to any other situation.

Or it can be argued that the only place table edge was mentioned was made purposely broad, as it is the only place it's mentioned.
The rules aren't written as fall back specific. You can't know the designer's intent.

If only they had left a note of some sort...

Or it can be argued that the only place table edge was mentioned was made purposely broad,

But it's not. It's in a section that deals with models who are Falling Back. That's not broad at all.

"But it's not. It's in a section that deals with models who are Falling Back. That's not broad at all."

**serious spelling edit, wow**

That's not accurate at all. This rule is in the general section "Morale" and the subheading "Regrouping". Its not particular to falling back at all, but rather to the morale rules as a set. And Odd is correct that any argument here that plays on the specific location in the book is sketchy at best.

A good counter example: the rules for psychic powers are in the Character section. But you just try and tell a Tyranid player that there aren't rules for non-characters with psychic powers, so his Zoeys go poof. No, book location here is an "argument from designers intent" which is now an officially named Dakka logical fallacy. Keep in mind here that no one really wants tanks pushed off the table, but RAW is what it is.

"argument from designers intent" hmmmm, maybe we should shorten it to AFDI. Yeah YMDC is all about acronyms.

Cheers

That's a damn good point Fenris. Arguing based on subheading/section when in many circumstances things are qualified is kind of beardy.

That's not accurate at all. This rule is in the general section "Morale" and the subheading "Regrouping". Its not particular to falling back at all, but rather to the morale rules as a set.

Really? Can you name a situation in which you would apply the rules for Regrouping to a model that is not Falling Back?

"Really? Can you name a situation in which you would apply the rules for Regrouping to a model that is not Falling Back?"

You missed the point. The rule is in the morale section and the morale section is the most logical place to put any information that has to do with Ld checks, forced movement, ect. You want the fact that the rule appears in this section to obviate it from applying anywhere else. Mostly I put this in because to say "its in part of the rules for falling back" is misleading and not entirely accurate when it is actually partof the morale rules.

This AFDI stuff isn't going anywhere anyway, its like fluff for a list, any fool can come up with a half baked story to support his beardyness. So no, it doesn't matter that the rule appears in the morale section, whats more important is that it's really the only rule that deals with moving of the board edge at all, except for Deep strike, and both of these rules support the idea that you are destroyed if you leave the table.

What you are left with is adjudicating the actual tank shock move and its results. The least bending of the Tank Shock rules have the tank pushed off table, that isn't even really in question. What has happened is that peopple have conflated the murkiness of the "what happens off table" part of the argument, with the relatively simple tank shock part.

There are two major parts to the argument and each one requires some interpretative work:

Position A, where the tank doesn't get pushed off the table. Here you are required to edit the tank shock rules to allow a move that is not the shortest. I almost never get on board with rules readings that require me to add text because its a little to AFDI for my taste.

Position B, where the tank does go off the table, requires us to answer a far more nebulous question - What actually happens at the board edge? Personally, I am more comforatble answering this question from precedent, than I am editing a rule just to avoid answering it. As well, all the precedent indicates that the tank becomes a casualty, as it has left the area in which it can contribute to the battle. It isn't even a silly ruling when you keep in mind that 40K is an abstractive game where actual ground scale means very little.

Anyway, I'm in favour of no editing and sensible interpretation of precedent. The tank gets pushed off table and counts as a casualty.

Cheers

*edit for some goofy grammar