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JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Where's the Power Fist option?

I, as an homage to Fallout, like to always dub mine "Fisto!", regardless of who's wearing it.

You dirty animal....

"I can't feel my legs"

Ailaros wrote:The problem with the power lance is that they're only worth taking in a VERY narrow set of circumstances. All of the following have to be true for a lance to be better than some other option:

- The model can take a power weapon

- The model can NOT take a power fist

- The model can virtually guarantee getting the charge in

- The model is part of a unit that will likely comprehensively win a close combat in a single phase.

- The model is not attacking terminators (or anything with an Sv of 2+)

- The model is not attacking vehicles.

- The model is not attacking something with Sv4+ or worse.

Like, I keep thinking about this trying to come up with a set of circumstances where you think to yourself "oh, I wish I had a power lance!" The only time I think it is actually the best option is against MSU power armor spam, or on a model with hit-and-run. That's it.

I think most of who like the Lance Agree with you 99% including me. Those of us are not taking it because of some secret that we know will make it better, but because it is the Red-Headed-Step-Child of the Power Weapons and because it will look cool on a Model, now if it did something like gave a +1 or +2 to I, then you would get an augment, but yes it is mediocre at best.

Ailaros wrote:The problem with the power lance is that they're only worth taking in a VERY narrow set of circumstances. All of the following have to be true for a lance to be better than some other option:

- The model can take a power weapon

- The model can NOT take a power fist

- The model can virtually guarantee getting the charge in

- The model is part of a unit that will likely comprehensively win a close combat in a single phase.

- The model is not attacking terminators (or anything with an Sv of 2+)

- The model is not attacking vehicles.

- The model is not attacking something with Sv4+ or worse.

Like, I keep thinking about this trying to come up with a set of circumstances where you think to yourself "oh, I wish I had a power lance!" The only time I think it is actually the best option is against MSU power armor spam, or on a model with hit-and-run. That's it.

I can only assume you share my dread that rough riders will be given these new power lances in 6th guard codex.

I could see them being good on hellions

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Said good stuff

I can only assume you share my dread that rough riders will be given these new power lances in 6th guard codex.

That would be so cool.

Anpu42 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Said good stuff

I can only assume you share my dread that rough riders will be given these new power lances in 6th guard codex.

That would be so cool.

Going from S5 I5, to S4 I3? Really?

Power axe. It may strike last, but it's strength 5 and ap 2.

Power Maul/Force Maul.

Nothing beats every squad leader having a Strength 6 Ap4 Cuncussive I4 Force Weapon.

Testify wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Testify wrote:

Ailaros wrote:Said good stuff

I can only assume you share my dread that rough riders will be given these new power lances in 6th guard codex.

That would be so cool.

Going from S5 I5, to S4 I3? Really?

Going from S5 I5 AP3 Once
To S4 I3 AP3 Every time you charge

That would be cool.

Rough Riders don't charge more than once.

Testify wrote:Rough Riders don't charge more than once.

That’s because after the 1st charge they no longer can hurt anything but Orks and other guard.

More often than not it's because they've been blown to smithereens.

Testify wrote:More often than not it's because they've been blown to smithereens.

I don’t know about 6th, but I always did well in 5th, of course I always went after Combat Squads with a full squad of 10 Rough Riders. I usually had 6-7 left after the initial charge. If I did well none of mine would take any wounds as I would inflict 6 No-Save Wounds. Then the next Combat Squad I hit would hit me first and then make most of there saves, I would get locked in as the Sergeant with his Power Sword would just cut me to ribbons.
With 7 Power Lances, two Flamers, a Power Axe and the Hammer of Wrath, I might just be able to pull off more than one charge vs. MEQs.

My guess is that rough riders will, in fact, get power lances in the next codex, making a unit not worth taking then even less worth taking.

Perhaps if they gave them a special rule allowing them to outflank if they want, and to assault off the board again, I'd consider including them.

... but I don't hold high hopes for RR's in the future...

Power Maul. Nothing quite like a blob of guardsmen with 15 str 6 AP4 attacks on the charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:More often than not it's because they've been blown to smithereens.

Honestly this. They are toughness 3 cavalry with a 5+ save. Once you hit the enemy you have done all you are going to do.

Ailaros wrote:My guess is that rough riders will, in fact, get power lances in the next codex, making a unit not worth taking then even less worth taking.

Perhaps if they gave them a special rule allowing them to outflank if they want, and to assault off the board again, I'd consider including them.

... but I don't hold high hopes for RR's in the future...

I just don't want them to be one trick Bronies. [Yes i did it ]

The only way to make this different would be to give them some serious durability (make them more like bikes), or to give them much greater numbers (being able to take squad sizes up to 30).

That doesn't seem likely. What seems most likely is that they will be kept the same, except hunting lances will be nerfed to power lances, and that their extra initiative and strength bonuses will get nerfed to Furious Charge, or some nonsense.

To make up for them being worse, their points cost will be reduced to 8 per model, and they still won't be worth taking, even at that price...

Anpu42 wrote:

Ailaros wrote:My guess is that rough riders will, in fact, get power lances in the next codex, making a unit not worth taking then even less worth taking.

Perhaps if they gave them a special rule allowing them to outflank if they want, and to assault off the board again, I'd consider including them.

... but I don't hold high hopes for RR's in the future...

I just don't want them to be one trick Bronies. [Yes i did it ]

Except they still will be one trick ponies, just one trick ponies that die the turn they charge in instead of the turn after.

Powerklaws

My general rule of thumb is I4 and less should be taking powerfists; with the primary reason being to deal with MCs and Armor. The assumption is that when fighting MEQs, it is better to have the fist going last to mash whatever your fighting than having a PW going at the same initiative and

I only run power weapons on I5 and higher as the initiative makes them more likely to kill MEQs before they can swing back. The exception is CSM terminators, both of which used to use take out other terminators.

Based on the above, the power sword and power fist are still the kings of the power weapons.

Anyone just said screw it an told their opponent that anything that isn't a fist or lightning claw counts as a power sword?

Barfolomew wrote:My general rule of thumb is I4 and less should be taking powerfists; with the primary reason being to deal with MCs and Armor. The assumption is that when fighting MEQs, it is better to have the fist going last to mash whatever your fighting than having a PW going at the same initiative and

I only run power weapons on I5 and higher as the initiative makes them more likely to kill MEQs before they can swing back. The exception is CSM terminators, both of which used to use take out other terminators.

Based on the above, the power sword and power fist are still the kings of the power weapons.

Anyone just said screw it an told their opponent that anything that isn't a fist or lightning claw counts as a power sword?

Or you know, you could take a power axe on initiative 4 or less, you get +1 strength, same initiative, and costs a bit less. Also, power mauls are frequently useful since they strike at initiative, and for marines they hit at str 6. Honestly power swords are probably the worst, at least power lances/spears get +1 strength on the charge.

I don't know, I still like at-initiative power weapons for I4. I4 still strikes before an awful lot, and usually I4 models also come with things like S4, which means you stand a very good chance of killing off something stuck at I1 with a challenge.

I like powerfists on space marines a lot less for this very reason. Now, you charge a guard squad and the sergeant with his combat knife stands a scary chance to end the space marine sergeant before he has a chance to swing his fist.

That said, there is no reason whatsoever to take a power axe on a unit that can also take a power fist. Same initiative, same Ap, but much more strength on the fist.

Psienesis wrote:1) Take a big-ass glove.
2) Wrap it in a power field.
3) ????
4) Profit!

This ^ is pure awesome. I might have to start an underwear gnome space marine list now.

As for which is best, it kind of depends on who you're giving it to. Is the model a character, or is he a straight trooper? Does he have I4 or I5?

I like to give my Grey Hunters a power sword so they can get a couple swings at MEQ before they die. I give my wolf guard pack leader (ch) a power fist because any character who challenges him probably already has I5. He'd better not miss! But I could also see it the other way too. A power axe in the squad to get that AP2 and save 10 points over a fist. Then the WG gets a power sword (or wolf claw) and a meltabomb.

I actually like the Maul, but I like to run Chaplins, so I learned to like them.

Happygrunt wrote:I actually like the Maul, but I like to run Chaplins, so I learned to like them.

There'is nothing like smacking around Russ's is there.

Oh, and also, at S6, a marine with a maul can ID T3 models at initiative. Yeah, not all that likely to happen, but it's still a tiny plus for the maul.

I like the maul too - we forget that there are lots of armies with 4+ armor!

Violet Wand...

...gets the job done.

I particularly like the power axe for what it can do for my Eldar, as well as the visual dichotomy of willowy Eldar with appropriate-looking axes.

Though for my Eldar in particular, I prefer the Power Lance because my army is a Saim-hann corsair army, so any characters who can take PW like my Autarch are all charging forth on jetbikes. Although the sabre-shaped Dark Eldar power swords and the ones on my 2e Howling Banshees make them look particularly nasty too.

Ailaros wrote:That said, there is no reason whatsoever to take a power axe on a unit that can also take a power fist. Same initiative, same Ap, but much more strength on the fist.

Sure there is. Power axes get +1 attack along with a pistol, while power fists don't. Therefore, a 2 base attack power axe guy fighting against an opponent of equal WS and Strength/Toughness will make 3 attacks, scoring 1.5 hits and 1 wound. A 2 base attack power fist guy fighting against the same opponent will make 2 attacks, scoring 1 hit and 5/6 of a wound. Power axe wins.

The axe is also substantially better against weaker troops. An SM Sergeant with a power axe is 50% better than an SM Sergeant with a power fist against IG, since he wounds on a 2+ with either bonus and the axe/pistol combo grants an extra swing. When you consider that the axe actually costs 10 points less than the fist on most models who can take both, there really isn't a huge argument for the fist unless you want to pull some shenanigans with challenges or use a non-pistol ranged weapon. The axe kills more guys for fewer points, and the fist is much weaker against characters/MCs than it was last edition.