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Corax feared to face Kurze, but only because he didn't want to look at a twisted reflection of what he could have been.
Corax also knew that Angron would hand him his ass, and felt that only Sanguinius and Horus could stand a chance.
I would agree with Red Viper's top 3 being Horus, Sanguinius and Angron. I'd probably give 4th place to Fulgrim, and drop Kurze down to 5 with the rest of them. Magnus and Lorgar should probably be asterisks, since they are wild cards.
False, Lorgar outright accuses Magnus of knowing that "Fulgrim" wasn't the real Fulgrim, which Magnus admits, he just chose not to act on it.
3.) Magnus and Horus start to realize something really big is up when some Lorgar’s Psychic abilities are almost a match to Magnus.
Magnus utterly dominates Lorgar telepathically from the other side of the galaxy, while projecting a psychic avatar which takes a not inconsiderable amount of power. He does this the moment he is tired of Lorgar's internet tough guy act.
4.) Lorgar absolutely dealt with the huge Blood thirster (name forgotten but the bigger of them, maybe someone may correct me here) to double this point doesn’t Sanguinius get man handled by a lesser one?? (haven’t read “Fear to Tread” yet)
He actually did this before fighting Corax, when he was still "weak". That does effectively settle the Primarch vs. Greater Daemons argument though.
But yeah, Lorgar is stronger than he was once thought.
Lorgar straight up beats Fulgrim's ass in Aurelian.
Actually, he manages to clear the room and hit him with his mace before Fulgrim can even pull his sword out. He proceeds to psychically toy with the Daemon inhabiting Fulgrim, the same one which mentally enslaved the Laer, and could have killed him at any time.
Perhaps an even more impressive showing is that he telepathically commands Horus, and Horus obeys, despite trying not to.
The last in particular is very impressive, although I'm guessing Horus' Chaos-corruption made him slightly more vulnerable to the now Chaos-empowered Lorgar.
Otherwise, this puts Magnus even more off the scale than he was already.
But again ADB wrote :These discussions… They’re not for me. I find them childish, and I think they miss the point. “Which primarch could beat X, Y and Z?” It’s not that simple. It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That’s why those “Which Primarch Is Toughest?” threads are so worthless. At their peaks, the primarchs are essentially the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. Fights are fights, with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong. They’re not sterile events of “Well, he’s stronger, so he’ll always win.” No race or fight ever plays out that way. Don’t be allergic to nuance. That’s not cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 01:49:49
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
False, Lorgar outright accuses Magnus of knowing that "Fulgrim" wasn't the real Fulgrim, which Magnus admits, he just chose not to act on it.
3.) Magnus and Horus start to realize something really big is up when some Lorgar’s Psychic abilities are almost a match to Magnus.
Magnus utterly dominates Lorgar telepathically from the other side of the galaxy, while projecting a psychic avatar which takes a not inconsiderable amount of power. He does this the moment he is tired of Lorgar's internet tough guy act.
4.) Lorgar absolutely dealt with the huge Blood thirster (name forgotten but the bigger of them, maybe someone may correct me here) to double this point doesn’t Sanguinius get man handled by a lesser one?? (haven’t read “Fear to Tread” yet)
He actually did this before fighting Corax, when he was still "weak". That does effectively settle the Primarch vs. Greater Daemons argument though.
Perhaps an even more impressive showing is that he telepathically commands Horus, and Horus obeys, despite trying not to.
@Void_Dragon; Thank you for clearifying, it has been a little while since I read it.
Garvy wrote: But again ADB wrote :These discussions… They’re not for me. I find them childish, and I think they miss the point. “Which primarch could beat X, Y and Z?” It’s not that simple. It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors. That’s why those “Which Primarch Is Toughest?” threads are so worthless. At their peaks, the primarchs are essentially the same, with things mostly dependent on circumstances. Fights are fights, with all the chaos of emotion, fear, fate, and the thousands of things that can go wrong. They’re not sterile events of “Well, he’s stronger, so he’ll always win.” No race or fight ever plays out that way. Don’t be allergic to nuance. That’s not cool.
@Garvy; Yes, ADB is correct, any could win at any time. They are all awesome. But its soo much fun to think/talk/debate over. These types of threads really break up the monotony of my day. Personally, I love everyones opinions, espicially when siting books I havent read yet (go out and grab some good reads). I think alot of people know that you can never truly tell who would win and all we have is fluff written here and there. IMHO its better then the threads of people wishlisting for 40 pgs on two rumors or when people berate Ultramarine players. I think these threads are very thought provoking and what better way to explore and debate your fav Primarchs.
"Help me seek the truth that lie behind the stars"
-Lorgar
Curze almost choked Lion
Russ broke Magnus in half
Fulgrim decapitated Ferrus and cut Guilly pretty bad
Guilly killed Alpharius (I belive so)
Horus stomped wounded Sanguinius
Wounded Corax toyed with Lorgar
So Fulgrim wins by one goal....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 13:15:54
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Garvy wrote: Curze almost choked Lion
Russ broke Magnus in half
Fulgrim decapitated Ferrus and cut Guilly pretty bad
Guilly killed Alpharius (I belive so)
Horus stomped wounded Sanguinius
Wounded Corax toyed with Lorgar
So Fulgrim wins by one goal....
But was it Alpharius...?
I recall hearing somewhere that the whole ultramarine assault was out of character, and that it could have in face been Omegon and half the alpha legion disguised as ultramarines fighting the half loyal to Alpharius. Coz Omegon actually turned evil heh. Not sure where I heard/read it though, but it would make some sense.
But my top 5 would have to be:
Horus
Sanguinus
Gulliman
Fulgrim
Kurze
Von Chogg
LunaHound wrote:Eldrad was responsible for 911 *disclaimer, because Eldrad is known to be a dick, making dick moves that takes eons to fruit.
tremere47 wrote: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Von Chogg wrote: I recall hearing somewhere that the whole ultramarine assault was out of character, and that it could have in face been Omegon and half the alpha legion disguised as ultramarines fighting the half loyal to Alpharius. Coz Omegon actually turned evil heh. Not sure where I heard/read it though, but it would make some sense.
Where did you read that...?
And on topic, when Dorn said that he will put Angron back in his place I think he actually could do it ( silly I know , but in some way I think it's possible )
Like ADB said : It’s not a matter of Paper always beating Rock, and Rock always beating Scissors.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 13:45:34
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
After five grim days of intermittent fighting we sighted the distinctive blue armour of our Ultramarines brethren advancing down a valley towards us. However, having approached into range our 'rescuers' opened fire. A contingent of the Alpha Legion scum had disguised its heraldry and armour in order to spring a trap.
But the report was from an inquisitor Kravin who was likely an Alpha Legion operative and this is before Omegon was established.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 14:13:02
The whole "Omegon goes evil" idea is a popular forum theory to explain the seeming contradiction behind the Alpha Legion's reasons for rebelling, and their actual actions since.
Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:@Garvy; Yes, ADB is correct, any could win at any time. They are all awesome. But its soo much fun to think/talk/debate over. These types of threads really break up the monotony of my day. Personally, I love everyones opinions, espicially when siting books I havent read yet (go out and grab some good reads). I think alot of people know that you can never truly tell who would win and all we have is fluff written here and there. IMHO its better then the threads of people wishlisting for 40 pgs on two rumors or when people berate Ultramarine players. I think these threads are very thought provoking and what better way to explore and debate your fav Primarchs.
I don't think you can quite go that far. For example, I don't think the Lion could ever defeat someone like Angron or Sanguinius in a straight up fight.
Pilau Rice wrote:
That's the same situation as Curze and Dorn, Fake Fulgrim wasn't expecting to get punched down in a board meeting.
That, and I think at that point Lorgar was already channeling some Chaos. His Legion was basically "chosen" by the Ruinous Powers and they fed him direct information on domination of daemons and the like. The physical punishment he inflicted on the demon is meaningless (as seen in Reflection Crack'd, Primarchs can withstand practically anything), but it was positively withering under his psychic presence. That would explain his man-handling of the Bloodthirster, too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 14:15:46
I don't think you can quite go that far. For example, I don't think the Lion could ever defeat someone like Angron or Sanguinius in a straight up fight.
Which is one of the major issues with these Primarch vs Primarch threads, we don't know who has fought who in what circumstance. The Lion says to Curze that he never faced him in training, but who had the Lion fought and who had he beat. Although not to the death, these would be good indications of their ability.
Omegus wrote:
That, and I think at that point Lorgar was already channeling some Chaos. His Legion was basically "chosen" by the Ruinous Powers and they fed him direct information on domination of daemons and the like. The physical punishment he inflicted on the demon is meaningless (as seen in Reflection Crack'd, Primarchs can withstand practically anything), but it was positively withering under his psychic presence. That would explain his man-handling of the Bloodthirster, too.
Fulgrim and Lorgar are certainly different characters now. Both have or are becoming their Daemon prince incarnation, Fulgrim knows he is becoming something more and Lorgar is now whole.
Well, it does come down to whether or not Fulgrim is Fulgrim or Daemon Fulgrim, I'm hoping the former is the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/22 14:24:29
Omegus wrote: Your inference is not supported by the text. Lucius is convinced that it is indeed his Primarch.
Is he really? There is no difference from the Fulgrim at the start of the book and up to that point, what made Lucius suddenly change his mind to being certain that it was Fulgrim. He only changed his tune when he Fulgrim broke his bonds, Lucius was possibly saving his own ass again much like in the previous fight.
I believe that it is Fulgrim, but there are those that don't and we are not 100% entirely sure that it is. We only have Fulgrims word to go on, and he was definitely possessed by a Daemon.
If humans can overcome demonic possession through sheer force of will, I would think it would be child's play for a Primarch after they got oriented to their situation.
Spoiler:
The primarch swung his legs from the gurney, breaking the bonds securing his ankles and thighs with no more effort than a child might throw back its blankets
upon waking. Julius Kaesoron lunged forwards to hold Fulgrim down, but he was swatted aside with a casual backhanded gesture. Fabius backed away, but Lucius
stood his ground, knowing there would be no point in running.
He saw how blinded they had been, how naïve. How could they have believed that they had the power to subdue a primarch? They had succeeded only because
Fulgrim had desired it, had wanted them to come to this point. The Phoenician had seen the doubts in his warriors and had led them to this place, to this moment, in
order to reveal his true nature.
Fulgrim turned to face him and smiled. In that instant, Lucius saw the truth of everything Fulgrim had said and done since Isstvan. He saw recognition in
Fulgrim’s eyes, and dropped to his knees.
‘Begging, Lucius?’ said Fulgrim. ‘I expected better from you.’
‘Not begging, my lord,’ answered Lucius, with his head bowed. ‘Honouring.’
Julius Kaesoron struggled to his feet, his fist bursting to life with shimmering arcs of purple lightning. Marius Vairosean swept up his sonic cannon, his mouth
widening in preparation of unleashing a barrage of sound and force that would kill everything in the room.
‘You know now?’ said Fulgrim.
‘I know,’ agreed Lucius. ‘I should have always known you would never surrender your will to another. If I would not, why should you?’
‘What is it talking about, swordsman?’ demanded Kaesoron. ‘Have you betrayed us to this daemon-thing?’
Lucius shook his head and chuckled at Kaesoron’s blindness to a truth that was now surely self-evident. ‘No,’ he said. ‘I have not, for I was wrong.’
‘About what?’ said Kaesoron, fist raised to strike.
‘About me,’ said Fulgrim, answering for him.
‘This is Lord Fulgrim,’ said Lucius. ‘Our Lord Fulgrim.’
Lucius tore his gaze from his magnificent primarch and lifted his head to the portrait. Its lines were no less insipid, its colours no less bland, but knowing its truth
now, Lucius saw the ageless pain of an immortal, inchoate being trapped forever in unending stagnation. To a creature of infinite possibility, there could be no
greater torment, and his admiration for his primarch’s brilliance soared anew.
Certainly doesn't sound like he's lying to save his ass.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/08/23 17:31:24
Omegus wrote: If humans can overcome demonic possession through sheer force of will, I would think it would be child's play for a Primarch after they got oriented to their situation.
Spoiler:
The primarch swung his legs from the gurney, breaking the bonds securing his ankles and thighs with no more effort than a child might throw back its blankets
upon waking. Julius Kaesoron lunged forwards to hold Fulgrim down, but he was swatted aside with a casual backhanded gesture. Fabius backed away, but Lucius
stood his ground, knowing there would be no point in running.
He saw how blinded they had been, how naïve. How could they have believed that they had the power to subdue a primarch? They had succeeded only because
Fulgrim had desired it, had wanted them to come to this point. The Phoenician had seen the doubts in his warriors and had led them to this place, to this moment, in
order to reveal his true nature.
Fulgrim turned to face him and smiled. In that instant, Lucius saw the truth of everything Fulgrim had said and done since Isstvan. He saw recognition in
Fulgrim’s eyes, and dropped to his knees.
‘Begging, Lucius?’ said Fulgrim. ‘I expected better from you.’
‘Not begging, my lord,’ answered Lucius, with his head bowed. ‘Honouring.’
Julius Kaesoron struggled to his feet, his fist bursting to life with shimmering arcs of purple lightning. Marius Vairosean swept up his sonic cannon, his mouth
widening in preparation of unleashing a barrage of sound and force that would kill everything in the room.
‘You know now?’ said Fulgrim.
‘I know,’ agreed Lucius. ‘I should have always known you would never surrender your will to another. If I would not, why should you?’
‘What is it talking about, swordsman?’ demanded Kaesoron. ‘Have you betrayed us to this daemon-thing?’
Lucius shook his head and chuckled at Kaesoron’s blindness to a truth that was now surely self-evident. ‘No,’ he said. ‘I have not, for I was wrong.’
‘About what?’ said Kaesoron, fist raised to strike.
‘About me,’ said Fulgrim, answering for him.
‘This is Lord Fulgrim,’ said Lucius. ‘Our Lord Fulgrim.’
Lucius tore his gaze from his magnificent primarch and lifted his head to the portrait. Its lines were no less insipid, its colours no less bland, but knowing its truth
now, Lucius saw the ageless pain of an immortal, inchoate being trapped forever in unending stagnation. To a creature of infinite possibility, there could be no
greater torment, and his admiration for his primarch’s brilliance soared anew.
Certainly doesn't sound like he's lying to save his ass.
Ya know, I really didnt buy that Fulgrim could just all of a sudden not be possessed by a daemon. But re-reading what you put in the spoiler, I get it now.
Good form.
"Help me seek the truth that lie behind the stars"
-Lorgar
Void__Dragon wrote: They did, but similarly Russ has also never been known to be much of a bare-handed brawler Primarch.
That niche tends to be filled more by Vulkan and Ferrus Manus (Get by with raw strength and endurance), Curze, and maybe Corax (If only because his weaponry is a bit more similar to brawling).
So, the dude who got into a fist fight with the Emperor isn't a bare handed brawler?
Void__Dragon wrote: They did, but similarly Russ has also never been known to be much of a bare-handed brawler Primarch.
That niche tends to be filled more by Vulkan and Ferrus Manus (Get by with raw strength and endurance), Curze, and maybe Corax (If only because his weaponry is a bit more similar to brawling).
So, the dude who got into a fist fight with the Emperor isn't a bare handed brawler?
Funny how he blamed alchohol for losing after the fight:-)
ADB: I showed the Wolves revealing the key weakness at the heart of the World Eaters; showing Angron that his Legion was broken and worthless compared to the others; that he was the one primarch who couldn't trust his own warriors, and that they didn't care if he lived or died; showing that loyalty to brothers and sons is the heart of success for the Legiones Astartes, to the point even Lorgar makes a big deal out of saying the World Eaters and their primarch were massively outclassed by Russ, and Angron was too stupid to see the lesson Russ had sacrificed time, sweat, and blood, to teach. We're talking about a battle the Wolves won, by isolating the enemy general through pack tactics, and threatening to kill him, without a hope of defending himself. It was a balance, 50/50 - Angron overpowered Russ, and the Wolves were losing ground to the World Eaters; but Russ and his warriors had Angron by the balls, and barely broke a sweat. They won, no question. Lorgar even says: "The Wolves won, meathead."
Dorn won’t help you either. He’s too busy being the Emperor’s groundskeeper, hiding behind the palace walls. The Wolf is too busy cutting off heads as our father’s executioner, while the Lion holds on to his secrets, and has no special fondness for you. Who else will come? Not Ferrus, certainly. Nor Corax either. Even as we speak, I suspect he flees for Deliverance. Sanguinius?’ Curze laughed cruelly. ‘The angel is more cursed than I. The Khan? He does not wish to be found. So who is left? No one, Vulkan. None of them will come. You are simply not that important. You are alone.’ Konrad Curze to Vulkan
Ya know, I really didnt buy that Fulgrim could just all of a sudden not be possessed by a daemon. But re-reading what you put in the spoiler, I get it now.
Good form.
More straight from the horse's mouth:
Spoiler:
Lucius watched as Fulgrim paused beneath the dull portrait that graced the wall opposite the Phoenician’s Nest, a secret smile that conveyed a lifetime’s meaning
in a slight upward tilt of his lips.
‘You were right to suspect I was not myself,’ said Fulgrim, finally deigning to face them. ‘The killing of the Gorgon was an act that severed my last tie to a lost
life, a past that means nothing to me now. And no act of such magnitude is free of consequence.’
Fulgrim squatted on the stage, as though reliving the moment of Ferrus Manus’s death. His fists clenched as he stared into the middle distance, and Lucius saw the
bloody parade of Isstvan V come alive in his eyes.
‘I was vulnerable,’ said Fulgrim, standing and resuming his pacing of the stage. ‘A servant of the Dark Prince took my flesh for its own amusement. It was an
ancient thing, a needy, capricious thing that revelled in its stolen prize, and for a time I allowed it to retain possession of my body while I learned of it and its
powers. I think it hoped I would be crushed by the death of my brother…’
Fulgrim grinned, staring at his hands as though they were still bloody from the slaying of the Iron Hands’ primarch.
‘It should have known better. After all, it had started me down the road of self-indulgence and a life free of inhibitions or guilt. What did I care for one more
betrayal? Manus was already a fading memory, a ghost who recedes with each passing moment, and everything I learned from it only made me stronger. In time, it
was a simple matter to reclaim my body and cast it into the prison it had crafted for me.’
Lucius tore his gaze from his magnificent primarch and lifted his head to the portrait. Its lines were no less insipid, its colours no less bland, but knowing its truth
now, Lucius saw the ageless pain of an immortal, inchoate being trapped forever in unending stagnation. To a creature of infinite possibility, there could be no
greater torment, and his admiration for his primarch’s brilliance soared anew.
‘So now you know the truth, my sons,’ said Fulgrim, dropping from the stage to walk among them. He spread his hands and touched them all as he walked past
them. ‘It is no easy thing to serve a master who demands so much of us and grants us so much in return. We must go further in our desires than any other,
experience all things, even those distasteful to us. No sacrifice, no degradation and no bliss will exist beyond our reach. I have such sights to show you all, my sons.
Secrets and power thought beyond comprehension, truths buried since the dawn of time and a route to godhood that will see me burn brighter than a thousand
suns!’
Ya know, I really didnt buy that Fulgrim could just all of a sudden not be possessed by a daemon. But re-reading what you put in the spoiler, I get it now.
Good form.
More straight from the horse's mouth:
Oh yes I agree and like I said, I believe it's Fulgrim, hell I hope it's the real Fulgrim as I hated the whole Laer Sword possession arc, but there is still room for it not to be Fulgrim.
We know from previous encounters and stories that Lucius is not a trust worthy character, doing anything to save his ass and achieve his own aims and all that spews forth from a Daemons mouth is lies and falsehood.
Frecklesonfire wrote:1. Which Primarch is the STRONGEST
Guilliman.
2. Which Primarch is the FASTEST
Guilliman.
3. Which Primarch HAS the MOST weapon skills & talent, this may be a power maul wielder such as Horus a swordsman such as Fulgrim or a claw / fist wielder such as Konrad Curze
Guilliman.
4. Which Primarch is the one most likely to just dodge you and stab you in the face aka Curze, Alpharius ??
Guilliman.
5. Which Primarch is an melee underdog that could be really good, aka Mortarion? Khan?
Guilliman
Guilliman is your only god.
I will forever remain humble because I know I could have less.
I will always be grateful because I remember I've had less.
1. Which Primarch is the STRONGEST
Khan
2. Which Primarch is the FASTEST
Khan
3. Which Primarch HAS the MOST weapon skills & talent, this may be a power maul wielder such as Horus a swordsman such as Fulgrim or a claw / fist wielder such as Konrad Curze
Khan
4. Which Primarch is the one most likely to just dodge you and stab you in the face aka Curze, Alpharius ??
Khan
5. Which Primarch is an melee underdog that could be really good, aka Mortarion? Khan?
Russ
1. Which Primarch is the STRONGEST
Russ
2. Which Primarch is the FASTEST
Russ
3. Which Primarch HAS the MOST weapon skills & talent, this may be a power maul wielder such as Horus a swordsman such as Fulgrim or a claw / fist wielder such as Konrad Curze
Russ
4. Which Primarch is the one most likely to just dodge you and stab you in the face aka Curze, Alpharius ??
Russ
5. Which Primarch is an melee underdog that could be really good, aka Mortarion? Khan?
Khan
The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."
-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.
Kharn is awesomely powerful, but then, he would be in a blood rage during the whole fight, meaning any skill would be lessened. He is barbaric in the extreme, and was already as good as berserk before the Heresy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: oh yeah, and Corvus Corax has some inate psychic ability. He can remain unseen in clear sight (see Deliverance Lost).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/08/25 13:57:23
The time for using the knife to remove this cancer is long gone. Bring forth the torch.
- Exarch Quaillindral The mind of the Farseer is utterly inhuman in its depth and complexity. Without mercy or moral feeling, his consciousness stands upon the edge of spiritual destruction. That he does not fall must be a result of constraints and balances that only an Eldar could understand. To a mere Human it is yet another reminder that we are but children in comparison to that ancient and powerful race.
- Inquisitor Czevak - 2010pts
- 385pts
- 383pts
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
5000pts 
6000pts 
3000pts
- 2010pts
- 383pts