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 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is poor logic, you haven't shown why. One more weapon than normally allowed is not one more missile than normally allowed.
You can have 4 drinks, a max two of which only two can ever be coke. On a tuesday you can have five drinks.
How many cokes can you have on a Tuesday?

Apparently I really need to spell out the base question that is the crux of my whole argument, is a missile a weapon of the vehicle? The only answer to this is yes, obviously.

To use your example, I can have 4 drinks. I can have a maximum of two Cokes. You tell me I can have one more drink than normal. I take a Coke, because I'm allowed one more drink than normal. I can normally have 2 cokes, but I'm allowed one more drink than normal, there is nothing that specifically limits me from taking another Coke. The one more than normal applies to a 5th drink, and if I want that 5th drink to be a Coke, I'm still allowed to have one more drink than normal. Normal again is 2 Cokes, I have one more than normal it's now 3 Cokes and still limited by 5 drinks total.

Now ignore the 4 weapons max for now, and focus only on 2 missiles. I am allowed to fire one more weapon than normally permitted. Can I fire 3 missiles? Yes, I have a quote from a rule that overrides the 2 missile restriction, since I can fire one more missile than normally allowed. Normally I'm allowed to fire 2 missiles, and one more than normally allowed is 3. The missile rule is a subrule of how many weapons can be fired, and when we are given permission to fire "one more than normal" it overrides the MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF SHOTS WE CAN FIRE. We can fire a maximum of 4 weapons 2 of which are missiles, with PotMS we can fire a maximum of 5 weapons 3 of which are missiles, because we are given permission to "fire one more than normally permitted."

In other words, the "fire one more weapon than normally permitted" can and does apply to more than one rule. It does not say missiles are exempt from it, it gives us a blanket, fire one more weapon than normal. So we ask, is a missile a weapon? Yes it is, and because it is a weapon PotMS can apply to it. If PotMS can apply to it, then we most certainly can fire "one more weapon (read missile because it is a weapon) than normally permitted." In other words because a missile is a weapon (remember, all missiles are weapons, but not all weapons are missiles) the rule can and does apply to missiles as they are a type of weapon. Even the rulebook tells us that missiles are weapons in the same sentence we are already talking about when it says, "they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn."

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is poor logic, you haven't shown why. One more weapon than normally allowed is not one more missile than normally allowed.
You can have 4 drinks, a max two of which only two can ever be coke. On a tuesday you can have five drinks.
How many cokes can you have on a Tuesday?

Apparently I really need to spell out the base question that is the crux of my whole argument, is a missile a weapon of the vehicle? The only answer to this is yes, obviously.

To use your example, I can have 4 drinks. I can have a maximum of two Cokes. You tell me I can have one more drink than normal. I take a Coke, because I'm allowed one more drink than normal. I can normally have 2 cokes, but I'm allowed one more drink than normal, there is nothing that specifically limits me from taking another Coke. The one more than normal applies to a 5th drink, and if I want that 5th drink to be a Coke, I'm still allowed to have one more drink than normal. Normal again is 2 Cokes, I have one more than normal it's now 3 Cokes and still limited by 5 drinks total.

Now ignore the 4 weapons max for now, and focus only on 2 missiles. I am allowed to fire one more weapon than normally permitted. Can I fire 3 missiles? Yes, I have a quote from a rule that overrides the 2 missile restriction, since I can fire one more missile than normally allowed. Normally I'm allowed to fire 2 missiles, and one more than normally allowed is 3. The missile rule is a subrule of how many weapons can be fired, and when we are given permission to fire "one more than normal" it overrides the MAXIMUM AMOUNT OF SHOTS WE CAN FIRE. We can fire a maximum of 4 weapons 2 of which are missiles, with PotMS we can fire a maximum of 5 weapons 3 of which are missiles, because we are given permission to "fire one more than normally permitted."

In other words, the "fire one more weapon than normally permitted" can and does apply to more than one rule. It does not say missiles are exempt from it, it gives us a blanket, fire one more weapon than normal. So we ask, is a missile a weapon? Yes it is, and because it is a weapon PotMS can apply to it. If PotMS can apply to it, then we most certainly can fire "one more weapon (read missile because it is a weapon) than normally permitted." In other words because a missile is a weapon (remember, all missiles are weapons, but not all weapons are missiles) the rule can and does apply to missiles as they are a type of weapon. Even the rulebook tells us that missiles are weapons in the same sentence we are already talking about when it says, "they count towards the number of weapons fired that turn."

You seem to be working off the old POTMS rules. The current one (in the rulebook which everything points to now from the Codexes via their FAQs) is just that the vehicle is able to fire one extra weapon than normal at its full ballistic skill. POTMS no longer just allows the vehicle to fire one more weapon than normally permitted.

So no 3 missiles via POTMS.

 yakface wrote:
You seem to be working off the old POTMS rules. The current one (in the rulebook which everything points to now from the Codexes via their FAQs) is just that the vehicle is able to fire one extra weapon than normal at its full ballistic skill. POTMS no longer just allows the vehicle to fire one more weapon than normally permitted.

So no 3 missiles via POTMS.

The rule actually doesn't make the distinction you're going for. It just says that it can fire one more weapon at its full bs than normally permitted. The wording can easily be read to mean we are allowed to fire extra shots from a flyer.

Here's the relevant quote from page 40 of the 6th edition rulebook, "The vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill, than normally permitted." When it comes to a flyer, they are able to fire 4 weapons when zooming. If it is allowed 4 weapons shooting, and PotMS allows one more, it's a matter of simple math 4 normal weapons plus 1 more weapon (as referenced by the rule) equals 5 weapons. Normal vehicles can always fire all their weapons now, flyers are a different beast altogether. I agree when used by a land raider that moved cruising speed, I can use PotMS fire 1 weapon at full ballistic skill, and the remainder are snap shots. That same land raider moving at combat speed is able to fire 2 weapons at the full ballistic skill, and the rest are snap shots. However a zooming flyer can fire 4 weapons at full ballistic skill at all times. The SR fires 4 weapons at its full ballistic skill, now the PotMS rule kicks in and gives us a 5th weapon that can fire. If that 5th weapon is nominated as being a missile, the PotMS would allow the missile to be fired, as the rules are a blanket statement and would override the only 2 missiles can be fired statement. The reference for "one more" applies to the Storm raven, and if the "one more" is a missile we are told we can fire one more weapon at its full ballistic skill, than normally permitted.

Your applying the rule correctly to the Land Raider, but then misinterpreting it for the SR. The rule applies exactly like you have it for the LR. The SR can fire everything it has. 4 at full BS, rest are snapshot. PotMS is 5 at full BS, rest at snap shot. The missiles still remain 2 max per turn. All PotMS does is change 1 snap shot to a full BS.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 yakface wrote:
You seem to be working off the old POTMS rules. The current one (in the rulebook which everything points to now from the Codexes via their FAQs) is just that the vehicle is able to fire one extra weapon than normal at its full ballistic skill. POTMS no longer just allows the vehicle to fire one more weapon than normally permitted.

So no 3 missiles via POTMS.

The rule actually doesn't make the distinction you're going for. It just says that it can fire one more weapon at its full bs than normally permitted. The wording can easily be read to mean we are allowed to fire extra shots from a flyer.

Here's the relevant quote from page 40 of the 6th edition rulebook, "The vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill, than normally permitted." When it comes to a flyer, they are able to fire 4 weapons when zooming. If it is allowed 4 weapons shooting, and PotMS allows one more, it's a matter of simple math 4 normal weapons plus 1 more weapon (as referenced by the rule) equals 5 weapons. Normal vehicles can always fire all their weapons now, flyers are a different beast altogether. I agree when used by a land raider that moved cruising speed, I can use PotMS fire 1 weapon at full ballistic skill, and the remainder are snap shots. That same land raider moving at combat speed is able to fire 2 weapons at the full ballistic skill, and the rest are snap shots. However a zooming flyer can fire 4 weapons at full ballistic skill at all times. The SR fires 4 weapons at its full ballistic skill, now the PotMS rule kicks in and gives us a 5th weapon that can fire. If that 5th weapon is nominated as being a missile, the PotMS would allow the missile to be fired, as the rules are a blanket statement and would override the only 2 missiles can be fired statement. The reference for "one more" applies to the Storm raven, and if the "one more" is a missile we are told we can fire one more weapon at its full ballistic skill, than normally permitted.

The sentence is completely clear: The vehicle is able to fire one more weapon at its full ballistic skill than is normally permitted. You seem to be under the mistaken impression that zooming flyers can only fire 4 weapons. That is not the case. Flyers are still vehicles and therefore follow the normal rules for vehicles except where noted otherwise.

Zooming flyers are noted as being able to fire 4 of their weapons at full BS while moving at combat or cruising speed. That doesn't change the fact that a vehicle moving at combat or cruising speed can still fire all of its weapons as snap shots. So a zooming flyer is allowed to fire all of its weapons, but only 4 of those are at full BS.

The big exception to that is obviously missiles, which have a limitation on how many can be fired.

But when it comes to the POTMS wording, you can't just emphasize certain words in the sentence in an attempt to change the meaning of the sentence. The sentence is plainly clear: It allows a vehicle to fire one additional weapon at its full Ballistic Skill...it does NOT say that the vehicle can fire an extra weapon on top of what it is normally allowed to fire. So you can't keep quoting 'one more' out of context of the rest of the sentence. POTMS doesn't allow the vehicle to fire 'one more' weapon. It allows it to fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted.