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I looked in the BRB but cannot find a direct answer. So would like a reference in the book please if available (Reserve same as Outflank?). What I am asking is if I elect to have the SR come in hovering and move it only 6" on my deployment zone is it legal to fire all weapons at BS, disembark and assault with the troops?

I am pretty sure the answer is "NO" but would like to get a book reference for this so I can highlight and add this to my personal reference sheet. Trying to figure out a Alpha Strike defense. If its a codex thing please specifiy reference as well either GK or BA.

Thanks

Deleted. Was thinking Storm Talon.

Rulebook page 125. Units cannot assault the turn they arrive from reserve.

First off, based on how big the StormRaven model is you're going to have to move more than 6" to get the entire vehicle onto the table, that in itself makes the rest of it useless. However if one were able to move less than 6" to get it onto the table here's what you could do. Fire 2 of the missiles, mindstrike or bloodstrike, then fire everything else since it is still a flyer and you can only fire 2 missiles per shooting phase. You could disembark, but could not assault because while the assault vehicle overrides the no assaulting from a vehicle rule, it does not override the cannot assault from reserves rule.

So the SR gets enter from reserves in hover mode, fire all weapons at BS, disembark troops additional 6", Troops can fire but NOT assault. No penalties other than that correct?

 mikeoif1 wrote:
, fire all weapons at BS,

Subject to it's own rules limitations regarding how many weapons (missiles) it can fire.

Except it's physically impossible for it to only move 6" onto the board as the model is more than 6" long and wide so normal disembarkation can't happen.

Lone Dragoon and blood and slaughter I have not built the models yet so I wasnt tracking that the model could not physically achieve that. I appreciate your input. Thanks

A fully loaded SR can't shoot all of its weapons at full BS unless it did not move. Flying mode you have 4+1 POTMS, hover mode you have 2+1 POTMS. a full payload is 2x sponsons, top fire point, front fire point and 2 missles. Thats 6 so flying you'll miss a missle or sponson no BFD but just saying.

Your not going to find this in any one place. But the answer is yes you can do that. the only exception is you can only fire two missiles in a shooting phase and you can assault the turn you come in. they only unit that can do that is the BA vanguard veterans

Bishop99 wrote:
Your not going to find this in any one place. But the answer is yes you can do that. the only exception is you can only fire two missiles in a shooting phase. you can enter the battle field in whichever speed you wish, is you only move 6 in you can disembark and since you have assault ramps you can assault.

it is physically impossible to move a stormraven only 6" onto the table.




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 Goat wrote:
A fully loaded SR can't shoot all of its weapons at full BS unless it did not move. Flying mode you have 4+1 POTMS, hover mode you have 2+1 POTMS. a full payload is 2x sponsons, top fire point, front fire point and 2 missles. Thats 6 so flying you'll miss a missle or sponson no BFD but just saying.

A 'full payload' is 4 missiles. Though of course only two may fire in any given phase unless one is PotMS'd.

 Goat wrote:
A fully loaded SR can't shoot all of its weapons at full BS unless it did not move. Flying mode you have 4+1 POTMS, hover mode you have 2+1 POTMS. a full payload is 2x sponsons, top fire point, front fire point and 2 missles. Thats 6 so flying you'll miss a missle or sponson no BFD but just saying.

en
in correct if you move 0-6inches in a fast skimmer you can fire all. a Storm Raven counts as a fast skimmer in hover mode


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 Blood and Slaughter wrote:

Bishop99 wrote:
Your not going to find this in any one place. But the answer is yes you can do that. the only exception is you can only fire two missiles in a shooting phase. you can enter the battle field in whichever speed you wish, is you only move 6 in you can disembark and since you have assault ramps you can assault.

it is physically impossible to move a stormraven only 6" onto the table.

believe you only have to get the base onto the table which is just under 6 in
if thats not the case you could still get it in by moving 6in in and turning around for you free pivot

I moded my stormraven as I despise the tail, I lost like less than an inch cos of it. (Don't worry it looks cooler now so nobody minds.)

Even with that I cannot make the raven all the way onto the table with a 6" move.

Also I don't think POTMS allows you to break the 2 missiles only rule. It is a more specific limitation than the general limit on firing weapons.

For most people hurricane bolters aren't a great option as they are going to be used maybe once per game these days so with your firing 4 weapons you'd be sorted to fire 4 at one target or fire 3 at target A and 1 at target B.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I moded my stormraven as I despise the tail, I lost like less than an inch cos of it. (Don't worry it looks cooler now so nobody minds.)

Even with that I cannot make the raven all the way onto the table with a 6" move.

Also I don't think POTMS allows you to break the 2 missiles only rule. It is a more specific limitation than the general limit on firing weapons.

For most people hurricane bolters aren't a great option as they are going to be used maybe once per game these days so with your firing 4 weapons you'd be sorted to fire 4 at one target or fire 3 at target A and 1 at target B.

Remember, with PotMS you can fire 5 weapons, and fire the 5th weapon at a second target. This actually overrides the missile rule, since PotMS wording is "the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic skill then normally permitted." If the controlling player chooses to fire a missile, you are firing one more weapon than is normally permitted. Normally permitted is 2 missiles, this allows 3 missiles while allowing 5 weapons. The rule can actually override 2 separate rules for the shooting of a flyer.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I moded my stormraven as I despise the tail, I lost like less than an inch cos of it. (Don't worry it looks cooler now so nobody minds.)

Even with that I cannot make the raven all the way onto the table with a 6" move.

Also I don't think POTMS allows you to break the 2 missiles only rule. It is a more specific limitation than the general limit on firing weapons.

For most people hurricane bolters aren't a great option as they are going to be used maybe once per game these days so with your firing 4 weapons you'd be sorted to fire 4 at one target or fire 3 at target A and 1 at target B.

Remember, with PotMS you can fire 5 weapons, and fire the 5th weapon at a second target. This actually overrides the missile rule, since PotMS wording is "the vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic skill then normally permitted." If the controlling player chooses to fire a missile, you are firing one more weapon than is normally permitted. Normally permitted is 2 missiles, this allows 3 missiles while allowing 5 weapons. The rule can actually override 2 separate rules for the shooting of a flyer.

It only overrides the Ballistic Skill limitation. Not the limitation on amount of missiles you can fire in a turn.

Fragile wrote:
It only overrides the Ballistic Skill limitation. Not the limitation on amount of missiles you can fire in a turn.

Reread the PotMS rule. I'll even make it easy.

Power of the Machine Spirit wrote:In a turn in which the vehicle neither moves Flat Out nor uses smoke launchers, the vehicle can fire one more weapon at it's full Ballistic Skill than normally Permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.

It allows us to fire an additional weapon at our full ballistic skill. Let's take a zooming storm raven as our example, since that happens to be what we're discussing. We can normally fire 4 weapons at full ballistic skill, of which 2 can be missiles. Now with PotMS, we can fire an additional weapon at our full ballistic skill, making it 5 weapons we can fire. Now, normally we can fire 2 missiles, but PotMS allows us to fire "one more weapon at it's full BS than normally permitted" so we fire 3 missiles because we are firing one more than normally permitted (again normally 2 missiles) and it is fired at full ballistic skill, and can be done at a different target. The PotMS has a double bonus built into it for firing missiles, since we can apply the rule to both the amount of missiles that we can fire in a turn, which makes that missile the extra weapon we are firing. The storm raven has 2 weapon limitations put on it, firing 4 weapons when zooming. The second is a maximum of 2 missiles can be fired per shooting phase, this is still limited by the 4 weapons. PotMS will apply overall to the storm raven, we can fire 5 weapons since we can fire one weapon more than normally permitted, and that extra weapon can be a missile since again we are firing one more than normal, which is 2.

Your taking this as exception to the Missile rule. A stormraven can fire every weapon when it comes on. Some at Full BS, some Snapshots. So PotMS does not give you an allowance to fire more weapons that you have, since you can already fire all your weapons. It gives you an allowance to fire another weapon a Full BS rather than a snapshot. Missiles state 2 per turn, nothing in PotMS says it allows you to fire +1 missile.

Yup the whole 'subject to normal rules for shooting" thing means you can only fire 2 per turn. As that is a shooting rule concerning flyers.

Nope. 'Subject to the normal rules of shooting' applies only to ' In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons', not to the other sentence. it's why they're in different sentences.

Fragile wrote:Your taking this as exception to the Missile rule. A stormraven can fire every weapon when it comes on. Some at Full BS, some Snapshots. So PotMS does not give you an allowance to fire more weapons that you have, since you can already fire all your weapons. It gives you an allowance to fire another weapon a Full BS rather than a snapshot. Missiles state 2 per turn, nothing in PotMS says it allows you to fire +1 missile.

A zooming storm raven can fire 4 weapons total and are at full BS, 5 with PotMS since it's "one more than normally allowed." 4 normally allowed plus 1 more, in other words 4+1=5. A hovering storm raven that doesn't move is allowed to fire all weapons at full BS, but is limited to 2 missiles. On the hovering stationary storm raven I use the PotMS rule, which allows me to fire one more weapon than normal. I've fired everything on the SR at full BS 2 missiles, An assault cannon and a heavy bolter say, that means I can choose to fire one more weapon, and that weapon must be a missile (or one of the weapons already fired could have been done at another target) since I cannot fire a weapon twice. One more than normally allowed overrides the total amount of weapons I can fire, and if I chose that to be a missile, the PotMS will override the 2 missiles, because I can fire one more than normally allowed, in other words 2+1=3

First0f0ne wrote:Yup the whole 'subject to normal rules for shooting" thing means you can only fire 2 per turn. As that is a shooting rule concerning flyers.

You're trying to apply the rule incorrectly to the first sentence when it is a modifier to the second sentence. The weapon may be fired at a different target, subject to the normal rules for shooting which means the target must be in line of sight, and must be a valid target for the shot to be fired. Additionally it means that when targeting separately you must still roll to hit, to wound/armor penetration, and any saves available.

why dont you just fly it on the edge and get your people out then go zoom zoom away

If its a flier it must enter w/ a zoom move.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

Fragile wrote:Your taking this as exception to the Missile rule. A stormraven can fire every weapon when it comes on. Some at Full BS, some Snapshots. So PotMS does not give you an allowance to fire more weapons that you have, since you can already fire all your weapons. It gives you an allowance to fire another weapon a Full BS rather than a snapshot. Missiles state 2 per turn, nothing in PotMS says it allows you to fire +1 missile.

A zooming storm raven can fire 4 weapons total and are at full BS, 5 with PotMS since it's "one more than normally allowed." 4 normally allowed plus 1 more, in other words 4+1=5. A hovering storm raven that doesn't move is allowed to fire all weapons at full BS, but is limited to 2 missiles. On the hovering stationary storm raven I use the PotMS rule, which allows me to fire one more weapon than normal. I've fired everything on the SR at full BS 2 missiles, An assault cannon and a heavy bolter say, that means I can choose to fire one more weapon, and that weapon must be a missile (or one of the weapons already fired could have been done at another target) since I cannot fire a weapon twice. One more than normally allowed overrides the total amount of weapons I can fire, and if I chose that to be a missile, the PotMS will override the 2 missiles, because I can fire one more than normally allowed, in other words 2+1=3

First0f0ne wrote:Yup the whole 'subject to normal rules for shooting" thing means you can only fire 2 per turn. As that is a shooting rule concerning flyers.

You're trying to apply the rule incorrectly to the first sentence when it is a modifier to the second sentence. The weapon may be fired at a different target, subject to the normal rules for shooting which means the target must be in line of sight, and must be a valid target for the shot to be fired. Additionally it means that when targeting separately you must still roll to hit, to wound/armor penetration, and any saves available.

This is like the restriction on assaulting after coming onto the board. So you put vanguard vets in a SR, they deepstrike and can assault because they have both the ability to assault out of a vehicle cos of the assualt ramp and to assault after DS. If it was an assault squad then no assaulting if they deepstrike cos the ability to use the assault ramp doesn't get around the no assault after leaving a vehicle that deepstrikes that turn.

POTMS gets around the limit on number of guns so if you have the hurrican launchers you can shoot all the guns and 1 missile but it doesn't effect the second restriction. You need a permission for every restriction or a specific blanket permission. In this case it is not so.

I appreciate all the input. My question has pretty much been answered by the fact that the model is to large to come in 6" on the board. Its a new model for me and I havent build them yet. PG 81 bottom corner in the BRB the way I read and understood is you must choose hover or flying when it enters from reserve. I wanted to have a back up tactic in case of an alpha strike on my side of the board as most of my better units are in reserves and my squisher units are deployed (something my OP would most likely take advantage of). Choosing to enter from reserves in hover I was trying to maximize my options with it. Again thank you for your input. I did learn that PotMS is pretty darn good.

 mikeoif1 wrote:
I wanted to have a back up tactic in case of an alpha strike on my side of the board as most of my better units are in reserves and my squisher units are deployed (something my OP would most likely take advantage of).

I'll echo the previous advice to take Vanguard Veterans. Not only are they the only unit (that I can think of) that can assault the turn they arrive from reserves, but having those jump packs gives them the DoA reserves reroll. So they're much more likely to turn up when you need them.
Of course, if you DON'T get alpha-striked, they're still a useful unit against almost any foe, especially supporting your other reserve units.

...wait... here's me, assuming that you're Blood Angels. If you're Grey Knights, assaulting on arrival is out of the question so you need a shooty unit that can do a number on a unit on arrival via shooting. Without the Codex to hand the only units I can think of are Interceptors (not that great for the role) and Terminators (will need to take shooty upgrades like the gatling).

Boss Zagstruk and his Stormboyz can assault the turn they arrive as can Ymgarl Genestealers because both have special rules saying they can just like Vanguard Vets.

doktor_g wrote:
If its a flier it must enter w/ a zoom move.

No such rule exists.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is like the restriction on assaulting after coming onto the board. So you put vanguard vets in a SR, they deepstrike and can assault because they have both the ability to assault out of a vehicle cos of the assualt ramp and to assault after DS. If it was an assault squad then no assaulting if they deepstrike cos the ability to use the assault ramp doesn't get around the no assault after leaving a vehicle that deepstrikes that turn.

POTMS gets around the limit on number of guns so if you have the hurrican launchers you can shoot all the guns and 1 missile but it doesn't effect the second restriction. You need a permission for every restriction or a specific blanket permission. In this case it is not so.

However the quote I've made, In addition to what can normally be fired, eases the restriction on missiles. A flyer can normally fire 4 weapons, 2 of which can be missiles. A PotMS flyer can fire 5 weapons, 3 of which can be missiles. The reason for this is that the "one more than normal" is applied to the weapon as well as the vehicle. It has to be as the PotMS also allows the weapon to fire independently of the other weapons on the vehicle, and we work out each weapon on a vehicle as if it were a separate shooting unit. So we have the PotMS affecting the weapon as well, thus if we choose a Bloodstrike missile on a BA SR, the line in the rule, "fire one more than normally permitted" allows us to BOTH fire one more missile than normally permitted, and this is the extra weapon for the SR so we get one extra missile that can fire, so long as it is taking up the slot of the weapon the PotMS is firing.

@nosforatu1001. I stand corrected. Reread the rule this morning.

 Lone Dragoon wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
This is like the restriction on assaulting after coming onto the board. So you put vanguard vets in a SR, they deepstrike and can assault because they have both the ability to assault out of a vehicle cos of the assualt ramp and to assault after DS. If it was an assault squad then no assaulting if they deepstrike cos the ability to use the assault ramp doesn't get around the no assault after leaving a vehicle that deepstrikes that turn.

POTMS gets around the limit on number of guns so if you have the hurrican launchers you can shoot all the guns and 1 missile but it doesn't effect the second restriction. You need a permission for every restriction or a specific blanket permission. In this case it is not so.

However the quote I've made, In addition to what can normally be fired, eases the restriction on missiles. A flyer can normally fire 4 weapons, 2 of which can be missiles. A PotMS flyer can fire 5 weapons, 3 of which can be missiles. The reason for this is that the "one more than normal" is applied to the weapon as well as the vehicle. It has to be as the PotMS also allows the weapon to fire independently of the other weapons on the vehicle, and we work out each weapon on a vehicle as if it were a separate shooting unit. So we have the PotMS affecting the weapon as well, thus if we choose a Bloodstrike missile on a BA SR, the line in the rule, "fire one more than normally permitted" allows us to BOTH fire one more missile than normally permitted, and this is the extra weapon for the SR so we get one extra missile that can fire, so long as it is taking up the slot of the weapon the PotMS is firing.

This is poor logic, you haven't shown why. One more weapon than normally allowed is not one more missile than normally allowed.
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