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 Frazzled wrote:
Less unemployment then.
Less government deficit then.

Per capita GDP was also lower, even adjusted for PPP.

Oh, and taxes were much, much higher; which accounts for the lower government deficit.

 Frazzled wrote:

Trying to figure out what it is you think we manufacture now. Cut out the military and there's not much left.

The US industrial sector is ~30% of GDP, so about 5 trillion USD. The US military budget is ~670 billion USD which, if we assume the entire budget is devoted to materiel (it isn't), tells us it would take up a little over 20% of the US industrial sector.

So yeah, there's quite a bit left.

I'm not talking the budget. What non military items (ok aircraft I'll give on Boeing) do you think we manufacture here?

US industrial sector includes resource procurement. thats not manufacturing.

 Frazzled wrote:
Less unemployment then.
Less government deficit then.

You are leaving a lot of other things out as well. More Jim Crowe, less post WWII European devastation, less people overall, more USSR, less personal computers, less smart phones and tablets, less internet, more violence, ect ect. American Wars/conflicts were about the same, sadly.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Less unemployment then.
Less government deficit then.

You are leaving a lot of other things out as well. More Jim Crowe, less post WWII European devastation, less people overall, more USSR, less personal computers, less smart phones and tablets, less internet, more violence, ect ect. American Wars/conflicts were about the same, sadly.

Actually less wars too. We typically only had one going on at a time, then certain Texans decided they had to be bigger about that too...

 Frazzled wrote:
Actually less wars too. We typically only had one going on at a time

We still typically have one going on at a time, which is one more than most countries have for such an extended period. We get a little time off here and there, but then it is time to saddle up and get back out there. Since the turn of the century the longest stretch of peace time we've had was between WWI and WWII. Since then I think we average about 4-5 years before we get back on the horse and get into an armed conflict.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Actually less wars too. We typically only had one going on at a time

We still typically have one going on at a time, which is one more than most countries have for such an extended period. We get a little time off here and there, but then it is time to saddle up and get back out there. Since the turn of the century the longest stretch of peace time we've had was between WWI and WWII. Since then I think we average about 4-5 years before we get back on the horse and get into an armed conflict.

I'd say the period from the Spanish American War to the War to End all Wars as well.
Also the period from Vietnam (72 or 75 depending on viewpoint) to "Eight Weeks to Paris Version Two; This time its in the Desert" in 1991. Thats a pretty good run.

So America is sort of like an alcoholic falling on and off the wagon, except instead of beer it's war?

In 15 yrs we be in another one.

 Frazzled wrote:
I'd say the period from the Spanish American War to the War to End all Wars as well.
Also the period from Vietnam (72 or 75 depending on viewpoint) to "Eight Weeks to Paris Version Two; This time its in the Desert" in 1991. Thats a pretty good run.

Spanish-American War is pre-Turn of the Century (but just barely, at 1898), so not included. We aren't just talking about declared Wars, which is why I also said conflicts. Vietnam started far before 72, some taking the start back to 1960. We were using Agent Orange in 1962. You also are forgetting going into Grenada, Panama, and Bosnia/Herzegovina.

Also I should have stated 5-6 years on average, not 4-5.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
I'd say the period from the Spanish American War to the War to End all Wars as well.
Also the period from Vietnam (72 or 75 depending on viewpoint) to "Eight Weeks to Paris Version Two; This time its in the Desert" in 1991. Thats a pretty good run.

Spanish-American War is pre-Turn of the Century (but just barely, at 1898), so not included. We aren't just talking about declared Wars, which is why I also said conflicts. Vietnam started far before 72, some taking the start back to 1960. We were using Agent Orange in 1962. You also are forgetting going into Grenada, Panama, and Bosnia/Herzegovina.

Also I should have stated 5-6 years on average, not 4-5.

I thought we were talking spaces between wars?
End of Vietnam to Desert Storm - ~75 to ~91.
Kosovo was after in Clinton's adminstration. Bosnia wasn't a war (for us anyway). We were/are peacekeepers there.
Grenada/Panama were two day events with brigade strengthish units.

 dogma wrote:

Per capita GDP was also lower, even adjusted for PPP.

Yet incomes were the same. What's the point of perpetual growth in GDP when it goes straight into the pockets of the top 1%?

 Frazzled wrote:
I'm not talking the budget. What non military items (ok aircraft I'll give on Boeing) do you think we manufacture here?

Note: I misread the table I was looking at for my previous post. US industrial output is ~20% of GDP, and China's is ~45%, which does indicate that China outproduces the US.

And I don't care about specific products, I care about statistical figures. US secondary sector output is ~3 trillion USD per anum, and the global expenditure on arms is ~1.5 trillion USD per anum. Even if the US supplied all the world's weapons (and it doesn't) that still leaves ~1.5 trillion in secondary sector output that has to be accounted for by other products.

 Frazzled wrote:

US industrial sector includes resource procurement. thats not manufacturing.

True, it would be better to use secondary sector output, which I did above.

 Testify wrote:

 dogma wrote:

Per capita GDP was also lower, even adjusted for PPP.

Yet incomes were the same. What's the point of perpetual growth in GDP when it goes straight into the pockets of the top 1%?

Incomes were not the same, that's the point of adjusting for PPP. Fraz isn't talking about the 90's, he's talking about the 70's and 80's.

Though on the last part I agree, GDP growth isn't the end all be all of ensuring a healthy economy or good quality of life.

Statistics, the joy of the lie.

Again, what things have you acquired in the last two years made in the USA-actual manufactured items?

I found a made in America flashlight (Ontario) the other day in Target and almost went into hysterics. Other than that the last thing I acquired was a Smith & Wesson, made by Yankees. I guess maybe a pack of roof shingles, but thats not exactly value added now is it.

Non-American cars are often a solid source of product actually build in the US, ironically enough.

 Frazzled wrote:
I thought we were talking spaces between wars?

Was it because I constantly referred to both wars and conflicts that you thought it was only declared wars? Length of stay isn't important really either, as it still mean arming and sending troops overseas, and we did stay more than 2 days. It didn't take long to squash the Iraq army but we were there for much longer than just taking out the military. Bosnia/Herzegovina still was American troops in another country taking shots and being shot at. All of these adventures cost money and time, and happen regularly, and more often than most other countries.

1914-1918 World War I
1939-1945 World War II
1950-1953 Korean War
1960-1975 Vietnam War
1983 Grenada
1989 US Invasion of Panama
1990-1991 Persian Gulf War
1995-1996 Intervention in Bosnia
2001 Invasion of Afghanistan
2003 Invasion of Iraq

 dogma wrote:

Incomes were not the same, that's the point of adjusting for PPP. Fraz isn't talking about the 90's, he's talking about the 70's and 80's.

Though on the last part I agree, GDP growth isn't the end all be all of ensuring a healthy economy or good quality of life.

GDP per capita is not income per capita at all.



The income growth for the top 20% was nice and high. The income growth for everyone else, negligible.

 d-usa wrote:
Non-American cars are often a solid source of product actually build in the US, ironically enough.

Oh you betcha. You have to be careful. Most "Japanese" cars now have plants in the South. Toyota, designed by Japanese, built by Southern Rednecks, for Yankee accountants.

 Frazzled wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
Non-American cars are often a solid source of product actually build in the US, ironically enough.

Oh you betcha. You have to be careful. Most "Japanese" cars now have plants in the South. Toyota, designed by Japanese, built by Southern Rednecks, for Yankee accountants.

That's why I usually tell people to feth off if they tell me to "buy American". I would rather support US workers with a fraction of the money going to a foreign CEO than foreign workers with a fraction of the money going to a US CEO.

For once, I agree with testify. The very top of the income charts have had very rapid growth of income compared to everyone else.

 Frazzled wrote:

Again, what things have you acquired in the last two years made in the USA-actual manufactured items?

No idea as I don't care where the products I purchase are made.

All I know is that there's probably a little over 2 trillion USD in the US secondary sector that isn't related to the defense industry. A lot of that is likely in the automotive sector, probably food production as well.

United States Aerospace industry is massive.

It produces a lot for the military but also for commercial as well.

 dogma wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:

Again, what things have you acquired in the last two years made in the USA-actual manufactured items?

No idea as I don't care where the products I purchase are made.

All I know is that there's probably a little over 2 trillion USD in the US secondary sector that isn't related to the defense industry. A lot of that is likely in the automotive sector, probably food production as well.

So the answer is none. Gotcha.

 Frazzled wrote:

So the answer is none. Gotcha.

Good to see that your grasp of reality is as firm as ever.