China declares US energy projects violate free trade, stepping up trade spat

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**Jihadin**

BEIJING – China’s government has ruled that U.S. government support to six American solar and wind power projects violates free trade rules, adding to strains between Beijing and its trading partners over renewable energy.

The United States and China are the two biggest markets for renewable energy and have pledged to cooperate in developing technology. They accuse each other of improperly supporting their own producers and obstructing foreign competitors.

The Commerce Ministry announcement Monday made no mention of possible penalties but called on Washington to stop the support that it said violates World Trade Organization rules.

Beijing is in the midst of a series of trade disputes with the United States and Europe over market access and government subsidies for solar, wind and other renewable energy industries.

Monday’s announcement said U.S. government subsidies to wind, solar and hydro projects in Washington state, Massachusetts, Ohio, New Jersey and California acted as a barrier to imports but gave no details. It called on the U.S. government to give Chinese renewable energy products “fair treatment.”

The Chinese probe was launched last November two weeks after Washington said it would investigate whether Beijing is inappropriately subsidizing its own makers of solar panels, allowing them to flood the U.S. market with low-priced products and hurt American competitors. The Commerce Ministry said it was acting on complaints by trade groups for Chinese producers of clean energy technology that said they were hurt by the U.S. policies.

Trade tensions over renewable energy are especially sensitive at a time when the United States and other Western economies want to boost technology exports to revive economic growth and cut high unemployment. Both China and the U.S. are promoting their own suppliers in hopes of generating higher-paid technology jobs.

In July, European manufacturers of solar cells asked the European Union to raise tariffs on imports of Chinese equipment that they say benefits from improper subsidies.

Beijing is investigating complaints that imports of polysilicon — the raw material for solar cells — from the United States and South Korea receive banned subsidies.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08/21/china-declares-us-energy-projects-violate-free-trade-stepping-up-trade-spat/#ixzz24H46O41K

So now we're the bad guys eh......
"slowly extends the middle finger"

**streamdragon**

Can't agree more. I don't believe for one second that the Chinese government isn't subsidizing its own companies.

**Frazzled**

Then obviously they don't need to trade with us any more. Shut down all Chinese imports.

**Melissia**

streamdragon wrote:
I don't believe for one second that the Chinese government isn't subsidizing its own companies.

In fact, I'm fairly certain that a few minutes of research would show for a fact that they are, FAR more heavily than we are.

**Howard A Treesong**

Frazzled wrote:
Then obviously they don't need to trade with us any more. Shut down all Chinese imports.

Sure, like many countries in the west could cope without all those cheap Chinese manufacturered goods. If we stopped taking stuff from China, the public would have a real shock over the price of many things. We've rather made that bed for ourselves.

**kronk**

Meh. Saber rattling, economically speaking.

Nothing to see here.

**Frazzled**

Howard A Treesong wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then obviously they don't need to trade with us any more. Shut down all Chinese imports.

Sure, like many countries in the west could cope without all those cheap Chinese manufacturered goods. If we stopped taking stuff from China, the public would have a real shock over the price of many things. We've rather made that bed for ourselves.

oh Noes! Forced to make stuff here! Heavens to betsy!

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:

oh Noes! Forced to make stuff here! Heavens to betsy!

Its more like "forced to pay artificially inflated prices".

I would rather see 10% of our country unemployed than pay 50% more for anything.

And stop like there is no US manufacturing sector. Its actually significantly larger than China's.

**Vulcan**

Ah, China, "Free Trade" means 'free to trade with anyone', not 'only free to trade with anyone in CHINA'!

**sirlynchmob**

don't worry, just vote republican, they have no need for any of that clean energy nonsense. Oil and Coal is the way to go.

**ShumaGorath**

Frazzled wrote:
Then obviously they don't need to trade with us any more. Shut down all Chinese imports.

I agree with frazzleds platform. Down with the U.S. economy! Down with being able to buy things! Wild inflation for all!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Then obviously they don't need to trade with us any more. Shut down all Chinese imports.

Sure, like many countries in the west could cope without all those cheap Chinese manufacturered goods. If we stopped taking stuff from China, the public would have a real shock over the price of many things. We've rather made that bed for ourselves.

oh Noes! Forced to make stuff here! Heavens to betsy!

Down with ten dollar shirts! From this day forth all shirts should cost thirty dollars! Down with electronics! Down with carpeting! Down with everything! We can make it here (after a decade long or longer period of extreme economic contraction when the majority of goods in america suddenly can't be purchased and our manufacturing industries all go out of business simultaineously)!

Fraz, you are the best comedic fake economist I know of.

**Frazzled**

Looks at unemployment rate, then points and laughs at Shuma.

**sirlynchmob**

Frazzled wrote:
Looks at unemployment rate, then points and laughs at Shuma.

No kidding, I mean its not like researching and producing clean energy technology would ever lead to a job being created.

**Jihadin**

No kidding, I mean its not like researching and producing clean energy technology would ever lead to a job being created.

We actually lost jobs

**Happygrunt**

Frazzled wrote:
Looks at unemployment rate, then points and laughs at Shuma.

While yes, it would lower the unemployment rate and eventually prices would stabilize (Beauty of capitalism), the first few years would be a living hell.

**sirlynchmob**

Jihadin wrote:
No kidding, I mean its not like researching and producing clean energy technology would ever lead to a job being created.

We actually lost jobs

Oh ya we lost so many jobs in the clean energy areas.

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/11/2011-outlook-for-clean-energy-jobs-in-the-u-s-beating-the-trend

The solar power industry doubled the number of people that worked in the industry from 2009 to 2010, from approximately 50,000 in 2009 to 100,000 in 2010, according to the latest reports.

Geothermal: Those projects will result in 3000 or more jobs added in the coming year, mostly in California and Nevada.

In terms of bioenergy and biobased products, the U.S. is expected to lead the world in global development according to a report form the World Economic Forum released earlier this year. In the report, data provided by the Biotechnology Industry Organization (BIO), shows that as of June 2010, the biorefinery industry accounted for more than 40,000 jobs in the U.S. The commercialization of second and third generation biofuels is expected to create 800,000 new jobs (190,000 direct new green jobs, and 610,000 indirect new jobs) in the U.S. by 2022. Achieving the biorefining industry’s full potential could create tens of thousands more new jobs within the next five years, said the report.

Hydro Power: Employing Millions in the Long Run

Clearly no reason to be investing in these industries, no jobs to be had there eh?

**Jihadin**

Solydra was when again? Also another one went down...

**sirlynchmob**

Jihadin wrote:
Solydra was when again? Also another one went down...

Oh NO, 2 copies failed, so we should just abandon the whole field. let the people who lost their jobs stay unemployed. Great idea, you should run for office, the republicans need more people like you.

**Jihadin**

You posted up to 2010. Two solar panels manufacture went bankrupt since then due to CHina producing them cheaper. Now you go on the attack on me. Your freaking funny

**Testify**

streamdragon wrote:
Can't agree more. I don't believe for one second that the Chinese government isn't subsidizing its own companies.

China has been deflating its own currency since time immorial. I know the US has issues with free trade but China critising them for it is frankly laughable.

**sirlynchmob**

Jihadin wrote:
You posted up to 2010. Two solar panels manufacture went bankrupt since then due to CHina producing them cheaper. Now you go on the attack on me. Your freaking funny

11 hours ago:

http://cleantechnica.com/2012/08/22/despite-headwinds-us-clean-energy-industry-continued-to-create-jobs-in-2q/
As many as 37,409 clean energy jobs could be created as a result of the more than 70 major clean energy projects announced across the US in 2Q,

And that's just this quarter. No matter how you look at it green energy will create jobs, It's doing it now, and has a large potential for growth. The only thing to wonder is will you be working for an american company being the world leader in green jobs? or a Chinese company?

**purplefood**

I don't see the problem in investing money in green energy...
It'll create a few jobs, further the technology. We may one day be able to switch to green energy entirely.
That'd be nice.

**Jihadin**

As many as 37,409 clean energy jobs could be created as a result of the more than 70 major clean energy projects announced across the US in 2Q,

Key group of words there
I know what your saying there Lynchmob. We just can't do it in solar panels. Now if they get the Keystone Pipeline to go through we be golden

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
Looks at unemployment rate, then points and laughs at Shuma.

Do you really believe that placing an embargo on goods manufactured in China would actually shift manufacturing jobs to the US? Because it probably wouldn't, certainly not in low value added manufacturing industries like textiles, which even China is getting out of.

There are other places that can manufacture electronics cheaply, and all of them have a cost of living much, much lower than the US.

**Jihadin**

China’s exports to America amounted to

$337.8 billion or 16.1% of overall US imports.

1. Sporting goods and toys … $29.2 billion

2. Other household goods … $27.5 billion

3. Computer accessories … $27 billion

4. Computers … $25 billion

5. Non-cotton apparel … $15.3 billion

6. Video equipment (DVD) … $15.1 billion

7. Telecommunications … $14.5 billion

8. Cotton apparel … $13.4 billion

9. Furniture, household items … $13.3 billion

10. Footwear … $11.6 billion

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/top_us_imports.html

The site very interesting. Seriously

**Frazzled**

purplefood wrote:
I don't see the problem in investing money in green energy...
It'll create a few jobs, further the technology. We may one day be able to switch to green energy entirely.
That'd be nice.

Its a separate topic but:
There's two ways to do this.
1) government funded research to be used either for the government or by private enterprise.
2) government investment in private businesses.

Government has a good track record with #1. the internet, GPA, development of vaccines.
#2 usually turns into crony capitalism. Solyndra is an excellent example of this.

**dogma**

Happygrunt wrote:

While yes, it would lower the unemployment rate and eventually prices would stabilize (Beauty of capitalism), the first few years would be a living hell.

Its likely it would be quite bad after the fact as well. Simply having low unemployment doesn't guarantee economic prosperity, or a high quality of life. Most notably the increased cost of manufacturing (Assuming that manufacturing wouldn't simply be outsourced elsewhere, which it would be.) significantly reduces the purchasing power of everyone, and therefore available investment capital.

At least unless Fraz is also proposing that we emulate Chinese work place regulations, or the lack thereof.

**Frazzled**

Crazily I remember a time before all our junk was made in China. We seemed to do ok then.

**dogma**

Frazzled wrote:
Crazily I remember a time before all our junk was made in China. We seemed to do ok then.

But not as well as we're doing now. And yes, I know you're going to cite growth numbers and unemployment, but shockingly growth and unemployment aren't the sole measures of economic prosperity.

The point is moot anyway. You can stop importing manufactured goods from China if you want, but another country will pick up the slack. Most likely India, Indonesia, or the Philippines. Unless you want to ban outsourcing altogether or levy significant tariffs (both awful ideas) there's no way around the fact that basic manufacturing is not coming back to the US; its simply too much cheaper to do it elsewhere. Indeed, there's no reason that we should want it to come back, as it is our industrial sector is larger than China's both in gross, and percentile terms.

**Frazzled**

Less unemployment then.
Less government deficit then.

Trying to figure out what it is you think we manufacture now. Cut out the military and there's not much left.