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coredump wrote:
The question comes down to if the restriction is on the unit that currently happens to be passengers.
Or if the restriction is on the unit only while they are passengers.



Lets try this one.

In the movement phase,the 'passengers' get out.
A different unit gets in and becomes 'passengers'.

For those that believe that getting out stops the effect, does getting in trigger the effect??

Will someone please address this?

This applies directly to my claim on HIWPI but was given a bit of grief.

If an IC ("unit")is part of a unit ("transport") that under goes an effect, and leaves ("disembarks") the effect still applies to the IC.

If the IC ("unit") joins a squad ("embarks a vehicle") already under an effect, the effect does not extend.

This may not be RAW, but definitely HIWPI.

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Fragile wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
And for the passengers, as they now disembarked, they are no longer passengers and can shoot in their shooting phase.

They are now the disembarked passengers, and hence cannot shoot.

And that sentence only applies if the vehicle was destroyed. And as it can't be destroyed it really doesn't mean or imply anything.

Wrecked and exploded = destroyed pg 74.

Nope, the only destroyed on pg 74 is weapons destroyed. I can see why you'd assume that, but that is not what is written.

pg 79 definitely says: disembarkation restrictions. "after disembarking, models can shoot, counting as moved"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

coredump wrote:
The question comes down to if the restriction is on the unit that currently happens to be passengers.
Or if the restriction is on the unit only while they are passengers.



Lets try this one.

In the movement phase,the 'passengers' get out.
A different unit gets in and becomes 'passengers'.

For those that believe that getting out stops the effect, does getting in trigger the effect??

Will someone please address this?

Well from what I can tell, if you disembark you are no longer a passenger so you can shoot as normal. The new unit gets into the transport and as they are now the passengers they can only fire snapshots/not shoot. The damage results are applied to the transport and only affect passengers of that transport.

Nope, the only destroyed on pg 74 is weapons destroyed. I can see why you'd assume that, but that is not what is written.

Its appears that you missed a few.

6. Explodes ! The vehicle is ripped apart in a spectacular explosion, as its fuel and ammo detonate.
The vehicle is destroyed. Nearby units suffer a Strength 3, AP - hit for each model........

Wrecked Vehicles.
A vehicle that is reduced to 0 Hull Points is immediately Wrecked. The tortured vehicle simply cannot take any more. The vehicle is destroyed, and its crew are slain.


Perhaps you should reread that page.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

coredump wrote:
The question comes down to if the restriction is on the unit that currently happens to be passengers.
Or if the restriction is on the unit only while they are passengers.



Lets try this one.

In the movement phase,the 'passengers' get out.
A different unit gets in and becomes 'passengers'.

For those that believe that getting out stops the effect, does getting in trigger the effect??

Will someone please address this?

Sure, whatever unit is currently 'passengers' is affected. Whatever unit is not currently 'passengers' is not. Simple, ain't it?

 don_mondo wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

coredump wrote:
The question comes down to if the restriction is on the unit that currently happens to be passengers.
Or if the restriction is on the unit only while they are passengers.



Lets try this one.

In the movement phase,the 'passengers' get out.
A different unit gets in and becomes 'passengers'.

For those that believe that getting out stops the effect, does getting in trigger the effect??

Will someone please address this?

Sure, whatever unit is currently 'passengers' is affected. Whatever unit is not currently 'passengers' is not. Simple, ain't it?

It's too simple. And fallacious. And not supported by rules. It says the effect is triggered when the vehicle takes damage. When the passengers embark the vehicle did not take damage so you have no permission to add the effect to the passengers. You are wrong; consistent, but wrong just the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happyjew wrote:
This applies directly to my claim on HIWPI but was given a bit of grief.

If an IC ("unit")is part of a unit ("transport") that under goes an effect, and leaves ("disembarks") the effect still applies to the IC.

If the IC ("unit") joins a squad ("embarks a vehicle") already under an effect, the effect does not extend.

This may not be RAW, but definitely HIWPI.

This is in fact RAW. You can try to weasel your way out of it but the bottom line is that the passengers were passengers when the effects were applied. The rule simply says the passengers as a way of indicating who the effect applies to, but disembarking does not change the fact that they have the effect applies. Just like an IC who leaves/joins a unit.

Any unit that is at any time disembarked will always be a passenger according to that bit so they would always be affected if their transport was stunned or shaken. I dont think that is going to proverbially fly right so to speak.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Any unit that is at any time disembarked will always be a passenger according to that bit so they would always be affected if their transport was stunned or shaken. I dont think that is going to proverbially fly right so to speak.

Not true, and that's not what people are saying.
If you're embarked when the Stun is rolled, you're effected - even if you later disembark.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 don_mondo wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

coredump wrote:
The question comes down to if the restriction is on the unit that currently happens to be passengers.
Or if the restriction is on the unit only while they are passengers.



Lets try this one.

In the movement phase,the 'passengers' get out.
A different unit gets in and becomes 'passengers'.

For those that believe that getting out stops the effect, does getting in trigger the effect??

Will someone please address this?

Sure, whatever unit is currently 'passengers' is affected. Whatever unit is not currently 'passengers' is not. Simple, ain't it?

It's too simple. And fallacious. And not supported by rules. It says the effect is triggered when the vehicle takes damage. When the passengers embark the vehicle did not take damage so you have no permission to add the effect to the passengers. You are wrong; consistent, but wrong just the same.

What? Just because it is the only answer that follows all of the rules in the main rulebook? The effectis apparently, per the chart on page 426, tied to being embarked at the time of shooting. "Effect on PASSENGERS FIRING FROM VEHICLE". If the unit has disembarked, do they fit the criteria of firing FROM VEHICLE? Nope, 'fraid not. See, it reaaly IS that simple.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Any unit that is at any time disembarked will always be a passenger according to that bit so they would always be affected if their transport was stunned or shaken. I dont think that is going to proverbially fly right so to speak.

You're going to have to explain that one as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Any unit that is at any time disembarked will always be a passenger according to that bit so they would always be affected if their transport was stunned or shaken. I dont think that is going to proverbially fly right so to speak.

You're going to have to explain that one as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Turn 1, unit disembarks from transport, so they were passengers. Turn 3, vehicle gets stunned. By the 'once a pssaenger, always a passenger' line of thought, the unit cannot fire because they were at one time a passenger in that vehicle. Yes, I know that is not what is actually being proposed by the loyal opposition, but that is one of the tracks that it could follow. Much easier to just follow the rules and only apply the effects to units actually embarked at the time of shooting.

 don_mondo wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Any unit that is at any time disembarked will always be a passenger according to that bit so they would always be affected if their transport was stunned or shaken. I dont think that is going to proverbially fly right so to speak.

You're going to have to explain that one as it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Turn 1, unit disembarks from transport, so they were passengers. Turn 3, vehicle gets stunned. By the 'once a pssaenger, always a passenger' line of thought, the unit cannot fire because they were at one time a passenger in that vehicle. Yes, I know that is not what is actually being proposed by the loyal opposition, but that is one of the tracks that it could follow. Much easier to just follow the rules and only apply the effects to units actually embarked at the time of shooting.

So you're saying something that no one is advocating is ludicrous? Okay, you win that argument.
And it's following the rules to say that if you were embarked when it happened, you suffer.

rigeld2 wrote:
And it's following the rules to say that if you were embarked when it happened, you suffer.

Not according to the chart on page 426................................. It kinda (well, more like explicitly) says that the effect is only if you are firing FROM the vehicle. If you disembark, it's kinda hard to fire from the vehicle.

 don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And it's following the rules to say that if you were embarked when it happened, you suffer.

Not according to the chart on page 426................................. It kinda (well, more like explicitly) says that the effect is only if you are firing FROM the vehicle. If you disembark, it's kinda hard to fire from the vehicle.

You can't just look at the summary and ignore the actual written rules then claim you are right. Nice try, but next time try presenting an argument that is valid and based on the rules not just on phrase in a table that is taken completely out of context.

You are right, you have to use all of the rules, which includes the chart. And combined they say that passengers firing from the vehicle are affected for their next shooting phase. I'm not the one ignoring part of the rules.....................

 don_mondo wrote:
You are right, you have to use all of the rules, which includes the chart. And combined they say that passengers firing from the vehicle are affected for their next shooting phase. I'm not the one ignoring part of the rules.....................

You mean the chart that does not appear in "THE RULES" section?

 don_mondo wrote:
You are right, you have to use all of the rules, which includes the chart. And combined they say that passengers firing from the vehicle are affected for their next shooting phase. I'm not the one ignoring part of the rules.....................

Yes, when firing from the vehicle they cannot fire or fire snap shots, depending on the damage result. If we leave it at that we are ignoring the part where the actual rule says they cannot shoot/fire snap shots in their next shooting phase. The context of both rules together gives us the whole meaning. Your comment is once again ONLY taking the summary section into account and ignoring the actual context of the rule. You still don't have permission to remove the restriction.

The context of both rules together tells us 1. How long the effects last, and 2. Who it affects. To say that it affects disembarked units that are no longer passengers firing from the vehicle is to ignore that portion of the rules.

But hey, if the rules don't convince you, i'm not gonna be able to. Course, some people don't even think that's part of the rules, so I guess anything there doesn't apply.................

later,

 don_mondo wrote:
The context of both rules together tells us 1. How long the effects last, and 2. Who it affects. To say that it affects disembarked units that are no longer passengers firing from the vehicle is to ignore that portion of the rules.

But hey, if the rules don't convince you, i'm not gonna be able to. Course, some people don't even think that's part of the rules, so I guess anything there doesn't apply.................

later,

You're quoting one chart thats in the summary area (which has proven errors) and ignoring the entire actual rule and context thereof.
Have fun with that.

 don_mondo wrote:
The context of both rules together tells us 1. How long the effects last, and 2. Who it affects. To say that it affects disembarked units that are no longer passengers firing from the vehicle is to ignore that portion of the rules.

But hey, if the rules don't convince you, i'm not gonna be able to. Course, some people don't even think that's part of the rules, so I guess anything there doesn't apply.................

later,

Really? The rule tells us who and how long, you are right there. Where you are wrong is the how long. The how long is their next shooting phase, not either/or their next shooting phase as long as they are embarked. The who is the units who were embarked at the time of the damage inflicted not the passengers who are in the vehicle during the next shooting phase.

I was doing a search for this to see what the result was, and found this thread.

I noticed the thread kind of went silent, and I hate to necropost, but has everyone seen the FAQ that clarified the situation? It does in fact say that passengers are still affected after they exit the vehicle.

....so buy that extra armour, folks! Or just go without the vehicles...