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rigeld2 wrote:
There doesn't have to be a rule saying it can change in the middle of a phase.
Lash Whips/Whip Coils have permission to change your initiative - there's no limit or delay on when it happens.
You must find something that denies that permission until the next round.
Saying "It's easier" isn't a good way to make a rules argument.

The "its easier" has nothing to do with modifying the model's initiative mid fight. LW/WC do not say "When a model gets into base contact" it says "When a model is in base contact". The rule does not give permission to change my initiative mid fight. Just like Fragile and both Nova/Golden Throne FAQs have said at the beginning of the Initiative Step I am not in base contact with your LW/WC and so my initiative is not 1. I Pile In and I am now in Base Contact. Nowhere does it say you can stop me from making my attacks as it is already my turn and at the beginning of my Initiative Step I was Init 5.

That could very well be RAI (but I disagree). It's not what's written.

Neither is yours, but like I said it changes nothing and is irrelevant.

You still haven't cited a rule denying the permission granted by LW/WC.

You still haven't cited a rule that says you can. Like I said, LW/WC do not say what you claim they say. At this point it is me asking for a rule giving you permission and you saying no rule says I can't so I can. I realize that is not your actual argument, but since your argument that the rule says something it doesn't your argument is reduced to that. And you know that doesn't fly.

No, you're not. With Whip Coils you're Initiative 1 as long as you're in base contact. With Lash Whips you're Initiative 1 until the end of the assault phase, starting from when you made base contact.
To make it work your way, you'd have to find a rule that either a) changes the wording of LW/WC or b) states that initiative cannot be changed in the middle of a phase.

LW/WC does not say when you enter base contact. Stop saying it does. LW/WC use the exact same wording. Exact. What I do see is a rule that says:
"Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached..."
"When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack." My initiative step was reached, I must attack. And then since I am counted as Initiative 1, according to you, I must make my attacks again.

Again, assertion without supporting facts.

??? TH attacks at Init 1. Anything that has not already had a turn is going and is not changed. Anything that has gone is not going to go again until the next assault phase, when you re-calculate their Initiative. Note: I didn't say nothing with the Concussive Rule can do it, in fact the Concussive Rule is pretty clear that it allows you to change Initiative mid fight. LW/WC do not have the same wording and thus do not have the same permission.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Just like Fragile and both Nova/Golden Throne FAQs have said at the beginning of the Initiative Step I am not in base contact with your LW/WC and so my initiative is not 1. I Pile In and I am now in Base Contact. Nowhere does it say you can stop me from making my attacks as it is already my turn and at the beginning of my Initiative Step I was Init 5.

So ... is it your initiative can't change during the Fight subphase or is it that your initiative can't change during the init step? I thought you were arguing the former, but now it seems like the latter...

You still haven't cited a rule denying the permission granted by LW/WC.

You still haven't cited a rule that says you can. Like I said, LW/WC do not say what you claim they say. At this point it is me asking for a rule giving you permission and you saying no rule says I can't so I can. I realize that is not your actual argument, but since your argument that the rule says something it doesn't your argument is reduced to that. And you know that doesn't fly.

Wrong. LW/WC absolutely say "is in base contact". If you pile in to base contact, are you in base contact?
Once you "enter base contact" you are in base contact.

No, you're not. With Whip Coils you're Initiative 1 as long as you're in base contact. With Lash Whips you're Initiative 1 until the end of the assault phase, starting from when you made base contact.
To make it work your way, you'd have to find a rule that either a) changes the wording of LW/WC or b) states that initiative cannot be changed in the middle of a phase.

LW/WC does not say when you enter base contact. Stop saying it does. LW/WC use the exact same wording. Exact. What I do see is a rule that says:
"Models make their attacks when their initiative step is reached..."
"When their Initiative step is reached, models with that Initiative who are still alive must attack." My initiative step was reached, I must attack. And then since I am counted as Initiative 1, according to you, I must make my attacks again.

Yes, that's what the rules say. Have I said differently? And LW/WC don't use the exact same wording, but it's similar enough. And I've never said that LW/WC say "when you enter base contact". They say when you are in base contact.

Again, assertion without supporting facts.

??? TH attacks at Init 1. Anything that has not already had a turn is going and is not changed. Anything that has gone is not going to go again until the next assault phase, when you re-calculate their Initiative. Note: I didn't say nothing with the Concussive Rule can do it, in fact the Concussive Rule is pretty clear that it allows you to change Initiative mid fight. LW/WC do not have the same wording and thus do not have the same permission.

Wait - you're okay with the Concussive rule being applied midfight, but something that simply requires base contact cannot be?
You don't see that as hypocritical?

 Captain Antivas wrote:

Luide wrote:Stuff that TOs have said.

4
Re-read those quotes. Both of them agree with me. Srsly.

Seriously? You're in denial.

Nova Open FAQ wrote: Required rules clarification: If a model moves into base contact with a Whip Coil-equipped Necron, it reduces its Initiative to 1 immediately. If the Necron is subsequently removed from play as a casualty (or otherwise) prior to the Initiative 1 step, continue to resolve the reduced model’s impending attacks at I1.
In short, determine the set modifier at the earliest moment of contact during the Fight sub-phase (to include “immediately” during Fight Sub-Phases that begin with the models already in contact), and retain that modification through the conclusion of the Assault Phase.

That FAQ entry goes on and tells you straight that Initiative will change during middle of combat In. How can you claim it agrees with you with straight face?

Note: Timing of attacks in case model Piles In to base contact with wraiths has absolutely NOTHING to the original argument. It is completely separate argument from possibility of Initiative changes, both FAQ entries agree that Initiative is dropped to 1 immediately.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"The rules don't say I can't so I can" is not a valid argument in a permissive ruleset.

Nice try. If you can't counter the argument... attack a straw man.

I *never* used the argument :"if it doesn't say I can't...."

There *is* a rule that says if you are base contact with a Whip, your init is 1.

If you don't want to follow that rule, *you* (and others) need a rule that counters that.

What I gave was a list of rules that people have tried to create as a 'counter', but those rules don't exist.


So, the rules clearly state that the Captain at init step 5 will Pile In.
The rules clearely state that if he gets into base contact with a model with a Whip, his init is now 1.

Please provide a rule quote that says he will still attack at his 'old' initiative?

The basic problem I have with the initiative rules is that there are some "unwritten rules" that I absolutely think are RaI!

Each model makes its attacks on one, and only one, initiative step. Each model makes its pile-in on one, and only one, initiative step.

Alternatively, it could be: Each model piles-in and makes its attacks on one, and only one, initiative step.

What do we need to do to get from RaW to satisfying that common-sense assertion? Captain Antivas' solution is the simplest I'm aware of. Alternatively, we can restrict initiative step activation to models with the current initiative or above which have not yet piled-in or attacked, respectively.

The only thing I'm entirely clear on, is that something needs to be done.

Pyrian wrote:
The basic problem I have with the initiative rules is that there are some "unwritten rules" that I absolutely think are RaI!
Each model makes its attacks on one, and only one, initiative step. Each model makes its pile-in on one, and only one, initiative step.
Alternatively, it could be: Each model piles-in and makes its attacks on one, and only one, initiative step.

Yup. Shame that's not what GW wrote. Note that these issues are completely separate from Captain Antivas' claim that models Initiative cannot change during mid-fight and if Captain Antivas was correct, we wouldn't need to discuss these problems at all. There is no support for his claims being RAW. He just keeps repeating that "You need permission to change Initiative midfight" while completely ignoring that 1) there are no restrictions on when statistics can be changed and 2) if he were correct, there is no permission to change Initiative at the start of the Fight sub-phase either.

Pyrian wrote:
What do we need to do to get from RaW to satisfying that common-sense assertion? Captain Antivas' solution is the simplest I'm aware of.

It obviously is not RAW, and while being simple, it is also extremely poor one. Let me show you but one way how it doesn't meet fairness criteria:

Hive Tyrant with lash whip and Tyrant Guard brood Charge Space Marines. Hive Tyrant does not make it into base contact.
I5: Hive Tyrant Piles In to a Marine. According to Captain Antivas, that Marines Initiative doesn't drop to 1.
I4: Marine,whose Initiative is now 1 according to rules (but not according to Captain Antivas) gets to strike.

See, Captain Antivas' house-rule takes away from Tyranid player ability to benefit from his wargear, even when it would not result in any strange side-effects.

Pyrian wrote:
Alternatively, we can restrict initiative step activation to models with the current initiative or above which have not yet piled-in or attacked,
The only thing I'm entirely clear on, is that something needs to be done.

Yeah, Assault Rules need FAQs. By strict RAW, assault rules break when one uses Unwieldy weapon, that's how poorly written they are.

My own take is that Assault Rules RAW are currently unplayable in certain circumstances, so they need house-rules or FAQ. No FAQ has been yet released, so house rules it is then. But why would I even consider making such clunky house rule as "Models Initiative cannot be modified after Start of the Fight sub-phase" when I could fix the issue properly? For example, I could make following house rules:

None of this is RAW wrote: 1. Model can only Pile In once during Fight sub-phase.
2. Model makes its attacks during the Initiative Step that it makes its Pile In move.
3. If models Initiative is increased so that its Initiative is larger than the current Initiative step, it may make its Pile In and attack at next Initiative step, assuming it hasn't already done so once.

The example is written with the Pile In and attack at same step as it's simpler option. The other way is lot more complicated if one wants to follow the RAW ruling of when model is engaged.

Based on the initial rule quotes, and my own experience with howling banshees, I would have to think that initative cannot be changed mid-sub phase.

In the eldar forums, there's a minor thing going around about unspecified power weapons and Thier use with howling banshees. Basically, there's a contingent that states that if you can model the banshee with a power axe, ergo she's equipped with one, and now gets ap2 and unweildy. BUT because her rules state she always strikes at iniitave 10, that overrides, and we get big scary ap2 attachs at init 10.

Problem with our banshee's is this, The mask makes our init go up to 10, then the axe (if it were usable, which it's not) would drop our init back to 1. That's just the stacking of the phase.

Based on how that resolves itself, I would say that the Whip coil would drop thier init at the start of the next combat. So, you get charged, 4 guys are in base after the initial charge.those guys are init 1, everyone else is thier current init, and if the happen to be in base at the beginning of the next combat phase (on your turn) they would then drop to init 1. But changing mid-phase just doesn't seem to work, and that's based purely on how initiative resolves.

And, while I know its a rules discussion, based purely on a realisic perspective, if I'm coming in swinging, I'm gonna get that first swing off before your coils wrap me up. after that, Gotta deal with the coils, but if i'm in a dead rush at you, I'll get my first attack.

 VegaGreywolf wrote:
Based on the initial rule quotes, and my own experience with howling banshees, I would have to think that initative cannot be changed mid-sub phase.

In the eldar forums, there's a minor thing going around about unspecified power weapons and Thier use with howling banshees. Basically, there's a contingent that states that if you can model the banshee with a power axe, ergo she's equipped with one, and now gets ap2 and unweildy. BUT because her rules state she always strikes at iniitave 10, that overrides, and we get big scary ap2 attachs at init 10.

You (or they) have read the rules wrong. Banshee Mask makes model have I10. It doesn't make you strike at I10. Unwieldy on other hand means model always strikes at I1. It doesn't make model I1, unlike Banshee Mask that makes model I10.
So basically that whole argument is based on reading the rules wrong.

 VegaGreywolf wrote:
Problem with our banshee's is this, The mask makes our init go up to 10, then the axe (if it were usable, which it's not) would drop our init back to 1. That's just the stacking of the phase.

Reasons you cite are plain wrong. Banshee is still I10. She just strikes at I1 if she has an Axe, or any other unwieldy weapon.

 VegaGreywolf wrote:
Based on how that resolves itself, I would say that the Whip coil would drop thier init at the start of the next combat. So, you get charged, 4 guys are in base after the initial charge.those guys are init 1, everyone else is thier current init, and if the happen to be in base at the beginning of the next combat phase (on your turn) they would then drop to init 1. But changing mid-phase just doesn't seem to work, and that's based purely on how initiative resolves.

You're missing that there are two separate issues:
1) Does model Strike at same Initiative as it Piles In or not if its Initiative changes mid-fight.
2) Can models Initiative change during mid fight at all.
They're separate issues, though obviously if Initiative couldn't change mid-fight, which it obviously by RAW can, issue 1 wouldn't exists.

And if models Initiative cannot change midfight, I guess my Hive Tyrant with Lash Whip, who piles in at I5 to bunch of Marines doesn't drop their Init from 4 to 1, even though it doesn't cause any wonky mechanics at all?