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So, me and Captain Antivas are having a rules argument about can models Initiative be modifed during ongoing combat or not. You can read the full story at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/471560.page, but I think continuing it there would just derail the thread.
We're both adamant that we're correct and neither of us is willing to budge a bit. So I'd like to settle this with simple poll:
Captain Antivas arguments are as follows:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Initiative order is determined at the start of the fight sub-phase.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
Since you have no permission to change the initiative mid fight you cannot.

My argument is:

Luide wrote:
And here are the relevant rules giving me blanket permission for possibility of statistics changing during game. Technically before game too.
1) Page 2, Modifers, Multiple modifiers. No restrictions on timing.
2) Page 23, Who can fight. "Note that certain situations, abilities and weapons can modify a model's Initiative." No restrictions on timing.

Luide wrote:

Codex Necrons wrote:"Whilst a enemy model is on base contact with a model with whip coils they counts their Initiatitive value as 1, regardless of their actual Initiative value."

The rule tells us exactly when models Initiative can be changed by this rule. And it can be changed whenever model is in base contact with whip coils. No restrictions on timing. So here is the rule that gives me explicit permission to change models Initiative during mid-fight. Note that nowhere does it say "at the start of the Fight sub-phase"

So the question is, which one of us is correct RAW:
Captain Antivas claims that if I pile-in my marine in base contact with wraith with whip coils during Initiative Step 4, marines Initiative will stay 4 and will not change during mid-fight.
My claim is that the the moment Marine gets into base contact, his Initiative drops to 1.

Note: Everyone knows that mechanics become wonky after Initiative is changed during mid-fight, for examples: does the Marine strike at same Initiative Step as it made Pile In or at I1, does it get another Pile In at I1, what happens to a model that misses his Initiative step? Point is to see general opinion, can Initiative even change during mid-fight as I claim or not, as Captain Antivas claims.

This is a good one here. Due to the nature of how Combat works and that there are a total of twoPile-in moves made each combat, its important to keep track of what Pile-in move your on to keep track of who has what initiative. To answer your question though, your both right. Thats due in part to the multiple Pile-ins though. Ill demonstrate;

On my (Necrons) turn, Ill be moving my six Wraiths armed with WC into a unit of 10 Grey Knight Paladins owned by Captain Antivas. To keep it simple, all his Overwatch shots miss. Lets say I manage to get three of his Paladins in base to base contact. Heres where we have to keep track of modified Initiatives as now, those three Paladins are at I1 and will pile in at I1. We conclude the Charge phase over now. Next is to start the Fight sub-phase and its first part is to pile in at our initiative order.

First up is I10, my Wraiths would Hammer of Wrath at this step, to keep things simple again, all attacks fail. For those lost, we still have 10 Paladins, three of which are at I1, seven at I4; And six Wraiths at I2. Now we begin the first Pile-in for the Fight sub-phase. Seven of his Paladins are at I4, they now pile in at that Initiative value. Due in part to the bolded on the top right of page 23, his seven Paladins will attack at I4. Again, to keep things simple, all attacks miss or are saved. Back to WC though, in that pile in, he gets another three of his Paladins in base to base for a total of six Paladins now. Moving on, next up on the Initiative order is the six Wraiths, simple math, all attacks missed or were saved. Last up is the three initial Paladins that got lowered to I1 on the charge. Again, all attacks there miss or are saved for numbers sake. The last thing to do is make an end of combat Pile-in at our normal Initiatives. At this point, all the Wraiths have been surrounded and the four Paladins at their normal I4 move as close as possible to get in on the action next combat. Wraiths stay put and the other six Paladins stay put.

In the next combat, Captain will have only four Paladins at I4 and six at I1 versus the six Wraiths at I2. The real wonk is what to do if one of those Wraiths dies on the I4 step, freeing up one of the other Paladins. Entirely up to the players as how to solve it. AIWPI though, I would keep them at I1 for that phase and allow them to go back to I4 for the end of combat Pile-in.


Does that clear it up for ya? :3

You outlined a process, but didn't cover rules much.
If you've got an I5 hero leading the paladins, along with some I6 halberds, and then some in base to base, with both sides inflicting some kills, you have a real mess on your hands.

I think you've got 2 choices.
1) Determin init at the start of combat, and don't stray.
2) Find a way to deal with init getting skipped or a model having it's init coming up more than once.

-Matt

You pile in at your normal Initiative, so you check it at that point. If its I4, you pile in and attack at I4. if that pile in just so happens to bring you in base to base with another model with some Initiative modifying Wargear, you will still strike at your first Initiative value. After that, you Initiative drops to the modified value and your second Pile-in will call for another Initiative check and you pile in at that (now) modified Initiative.

I understand what your saying HawaiiMatt, but lets be honest, do you think your Paladins will get to attack twice? RAW nothing stops you from doing so however.

Again, would you?

My claim is that the the moment Marine gets into base contact, his Initiative drops to 1.

This is correct, however, the current INI step was already checked for so units with that INI will make their attacks.

I understand what your saying HawaiiMatt, but lets be honest, do you think your Paladins will get to attack twice? RAW nothing stops you from doing so however.

You would be limited by the number of attacks on your profile. You cannot make more than that per turn without an exceptional rule. The second Pile In, however, would be up for debate. Like Servo arms. Do they allow a second pile in and attack ?

RAW I think Init can change, however...this does appear to be a can of worms, as has been stated it would seem that following that line by RAW you end up with models with high init attacking multiple times after each pile in... that doesnt seem quite fair to me.

It doesn't say when a model gets into base contact, it says a model that is in bade contact. Still no permission given.

The problem with "fixed" Initiative, is that it means (for example) a model armed with a power sword and power fist would have to declare at the start of the phase which weapon he is using, instead of deciding at his models initiative.

Happyjew wrote:
The problem with "fixed" Initiative, is that it means (for example) a model armed with a power sword and power fist would have to declare at the start of the phase which weapon he is using, instead of deciding at his models initiative.

How is that a problem ?

I have a model equipped with a CCW, Power Sword and a Power Fist. At the start of combat I plan to use my Power Sword + CCW to get the extra attack. Initiative step 4 (the models Initiative) comes up, and there is only 1 model left with a 2+ armour save. at this point, I no longer want to use my Power Sword/CCW combo, I want to use my PF to make sure I kill the guy.

If Initiative is fixed at the start o combat, I now have no choice. I MUST use the Power Sword. Despite the rules for multiple weapons specifically stating that you choose when it comes time for the model to strike blows.

I dont see that as a "problem". Thats a tactical decision you have to make. The choice isnt taken from you, you just have to decide before you know the results of each INI step prior to your guys.

You mean a decision you make when the it is time for the model to make his attacks, not at the start of the Fight sub-phase?

Is your argument really nothing more than "it makes things more difficult for me so it cannot be so"? Please tell me there is at least some rules involved in your argument.

I see a rule that says models in base contact with Whips are Init 1.

I see no rule that says a models init step is 'fixed', nor any rule that says their init is 'fixed'.

I see no rule that disallows your init step to change when your init changes.

I see no rule that says you must declare what CC weapon you are using at the beginning of the subphase.

I see no rule that disallows muliple Pile In if you have multiple Init steps.

There *are* rules that would stop that Paladin (or anyone) from 'attacking twice'. (notwithstanding techmarines, etc.)

"The rules don't say I can't so I can" is not a valid argument in a permissive ruleset.

coredump wrote:
I see a rule that says models in base contact with Whips are Init 1.

I see no rule that says a models init step is 'fixed', nor any rule that says their init is 'fixed'.

I see no rule that disallows your init step to change when your init changes.

I see no rule that says you must declare what CC weapon you are using at the beginning of the subphase.

I see no rule that disallows muliple Pile In if you have multiple Init steps.

There *are* rules that would stop that Paladin (or anyone) from 'attacking twice'. (notwithstanding techmarines, etc.)

All completely correct, Captain Antivas is also correct as everything must fit within the Permissive ruleset. To prevent a model from losing its attacks though, Id play it with the initiative as fixed until the end of that phase, after that, back up it goes until it comes back into contact with more WC goodness. :3

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"The rules don't say I can't so I can" is not a valid argument in a permissive ruleset.

I see a rule saying that a model that has multiple close combat weapons "must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows (page 51). Note that the rule specifies when he attacks. Not at the beginning of the sub-phase.

My argument is not that it makes the game more difficult. My argument is that it goes against the rule I've quoted.

Happyjew wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"The rules don't say I can't so I can" is not a valid argument in a permissive ruleset.

I see a rule saying that a model that has multiple close combat weapons "must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows (page 51). Note that the rule specifies when he attacks. Not at the beginning of the sub-phase.

My argument is not that it makes the game more difficult. My argument is that it goes against the rule I've quoted.

Well unfortunately, that particular "rule" is not phrased in a format that would make it fit somewhere neatly. "When he makes his melee attacks" would have been a much better way to lock down "when" that takes place.


"Models make their attacks when their INI step is reached." At I4, my Istep is reached. I pile into BTB with Lashwhips. (subsequently reducing my INI to 1). However, you will not check for another INI step until everyone in 4 is gone, so I will make my attacks at I4. (pg23). Should I survive the turn, next round my INI will be 1. Nothing in Lashwhips/Coils stops the attacks from happening (may change when codices are updated.)

Striking blows is synonymous with attacks in the rule book.

Happyjew wrote: I see a rule saying that a model that has multiple close combat weapons "must choose which one to attack with when he comes to strike blows (page 51)

This is what we call a rules quote. This is useful to the conversation. (Not directed at you Happy. They know who they are.) Unfortunately I cannot agree that it means what you think it means. Come to strike blows means the unit's turn to be in combat, not the particular model's turn to attack. It makes more sense after I explain below.

rigeld2 wrote:
Striking blows is synonymous with attacks in the rule book.

Show me where?

Lets do this the easy way. There are two legitimate interpretations of the RAW. I am pretty sure no one is arguing what the rules actually say, but the meaning of the words is in dispute. We have two options:

1. You can change initiative mid-fight and we break the game in a couple different places, including but no limited to, models losing their attacks when they are successful in killing things (so you do well and are punished), models are given two initiatives when they kill things (and I am not aware of any rule that says you can only attack once, but if there is an actual quote please let me know. All I see is something saying that when it is your initiative and you are not dead you MUST attack.).

OR

2. You cannot change initiative mid-fight and the game goes smoothly. You are required to determine what weapon you are using at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase (not a problem at all, but requires tactical foresight. Just like many other things, like the SW Long Fang's ability that requires you declare who is shooting where before you shoot anything, which bit me in the butt when I declared 3 models shooting at one tank that got blown up after the first shot wasting 2 shots), and everyone gets one chance to attack and are not at risk to lose their attacks.

Now, which interpretation do you really think makes more sense?

 Captain Antivas wrote:
1. You can change initiative mid-fight and we break the game in a couple different places, including but no limited to, models losing their attacks when they are successful in killing things (so you do well and are punished), models are given two initiatives when they kill things (and I am not aware of any rule that says you can only attack once, but if there is an actual quote please let me know. All I see is something saying that when it is your initiative and you are not dead you MUST attack.).

Page 2 for Attacks covers the number of attacks portion your looking for. :3

"strike" does not equal "comes to strike blows". Although it is obvious striking is the same as an attack, I was asking where "comes to strike blows" is defined as being your initiative step.

Page 23 top right (Litterally the first sentence) bolded. :3

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"strike" does not equal "comes to strike blows". Although it is obvious striking is the same as an attack, I was asking where "comes to strike blows" is defined as being your initiative step.

I didn't say that. I said striking blows and making attacks were synonymous.
Don't move the goal posts
You said the rule should say "when he makes his melee attacks". Since striking blows and making attacks are synonymous...

Everyone should remember this:
In the rulebook, you can find exactly as many rules that give explicit permission for models Initiative to change during Starf of the Fight sub-phase as you can find rules that give explicit permission for models Initiative to change during mid-fight.

Captain Antivas wrote:"Since you have no permission to change the initiative mid fight you cannot. "

So technically, shouldn't Captain Antivas argument also apply to during start of the Fight sub-phase? I can assure you, there is no rule that allows Initiative to change specifically during start of the Fight sub-phase.

Edit: Both Golden Throne and Nova open FAQ'd the whip coils, funnily enough having more or less opposite rulings. I've added them here so that people can see how TO's have already ruled on this issue.

Nova Open FAQ wrote: Required rules clarification: If a model moves into base contact with a Whip Coil-equipped Necron, it reduces its Initiative to 1 immediately. If the Necron is subsequently removed from play as a casualty (or otherwise) prior to the Initiative 1 step, continue to resolve the reduced model’s impending attacks at I1.
In short, determine the set modifier at the earliest moment of contact during the Fight sub-phase (to include “immediately” during Fight Sub-Phases that begin with the models already in contact), and retain that modification through the conclusion of the Assault Phase.

Golden Throne FAQ wrote: wrote: "Q: If a model engaged in close combat makes a 3″ Pile In move at its Initiative Step and comes into base contact with a Whip Coil or Lash Whip, does it make attacks at the current Initiative Step or at Initiative 1?"
"A: Models must make their attacks at their Initiative Step, which is determined prior to Pile In moves. A model that comes into base contact with a Lash Whip during its Pile In move will therefore throw attacks at its regular Initiative step."

rigeld2 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"strike" does not equal "comes to strike blows". Although it is obvious striking is the same as an attack, I was asking where "comes to strike blows" is defined as being your initiative step.

I didn't say that. I said striking blows and making attacks were synonymous.
Don't move the goal posts
You said the rule should say "when he makes his melee attacks". Since striking blows and making attacks are synonymous...

Let's not get confused here. I never said that, someone else did. But, nevertheless the point still stands. Striking a blow is obviously the same as making an attack, but comes to strike blows does not automatically mean that model's initiative step. The wording in context does not necessarily mean what you think it means.

Luide wrote:Stuff that TOs have said.

Re-read those quotes. Both of them agree with me. Srsly.

And the context of the rules gives us our answer. As I have already said like three times.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xzerios wrote:
Page 23 top right (Litterally the first sentence) bolded. :3

Quote it since I am not seeing it. Wargear can change initiative, obviously. Where does it give permission to do it in the middle of a phase?

Captain Antivas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
"strike" does not equal "comes to strike blows". Although it is obvious striking is the same as an attack, I was asking where "comes to strike blows" is defined as being your initiative step.

I didn't say that. I said striking blows and making attacks were synonymous.
Don't move the goal posts
You said the rule should say "when he makes his melee attacks". Since striking blows and making attacks are synonymous...

Let's not get confused here. I never said that, someone else did.

Fair enough - I misquoted. Sorry.

But, nevertheless the point still stands. Striking a blow is obviously the same as making an attack, but comes to strike blows does not automatically mean that model's initiative step. The wording in context does not necessarily mean what you think it means.

So, since you agree they're synonymous, we can say "comes to make attacks". When does a model come to make attacks?

BRB wrote:To represent this, a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat.

After piling in, what is the models initiative? Show me the rule that says your initiative is decided at the beginning of the Fight subphase.

After piling in, what is the models initiative? Show me the rule that says your initiative is decided at the beginning of the Fight subphase.

Pg 22 says to count down from Step 10 to 1. Top of 23 states "at the start of each INI step" (this shows when INI is checked.)

rigeld2 wrote:

Fair enough - I misquoted. Sorry.

It happens.

So, since you agree they're synonymous, we can say "comes to make attacks". When does a model come to make attacks?

"Comes to" is the operative word here. It doesn't say when he strikes blows, but when he comes to strike blows. That was the point Fragile was making. Coming to strike blows/make attacks is referring to the unit's turn to resolve their combat. If I show up at someone's house and they say "he comes to rid us of our rats" I am not actively ridding them of their rats yet, they have just stated that is what I am there to do. Loose analogy but it works for our purposes and lays out the logical flow I am referring to.

After piling in, what is the models initiative? Show me the rule that says your initiative is decided at the beginning of the Fight subphase.

The rule is found in the context of the Assault Rules. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached." If we did not set a model's initiative before the fighting began how do we know that it is, or is not, a model's turn to go? We can do what Luide suggested and just look at each model at each Initiative Step, but since there is no rule that says a model's initiative could change in the middle of a phase it is really irrelevant if you do it at the start or at each Step. It is just easier to do it at the beginning all in one go.

Both ways are perfectly legitimate and doing it one way over the other does not change anything, other than models with multiple weapons that allow different initiatives; but that is not really a major concern as the difference allowed by that are minimal at best. Not to mention those situations where you have two weapons and one gives an initiative bonus, when do you decide when to use that? The model's initiative is after the initiative step provided by their weapon so they don't have a choice to use their initiative boosting weapon. Or, we could all decide it at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase and make the whole thing go so much more smooth.

The bottom line is that if you choose to set initiative at the beginning of the sub-phase or at each step is not the issue. No matter which way you choose to do it you cannot change a model's initiative mid fight. If I start the phase with Initiative 1 I am Initiative 1 until the end of the phase. If I start at Initiative 5 and come into contact with a model with Lashwhips/Whip Coils I am still Initiative 5 until the end of the phase. If I get hit with a TH and don't die from the unsaved Wound I am not Initiative 1 until the next round of combat. Even a TH cannot change Initiative until the end of the next round of combat. Granted the TH goes last, but that is hardly the point.

 Captain Antivas wrote:

After piling in, what is the models initiative? Show me the rule that says your initiative is decided at the beginning of the Fight subphase.

The rule is found in the context of the Assault Rules. "Models make their attacks when their Initiative Step is reached." If we did not set a model's initiative before the fighting began how do we know that it is, or is not, a model's turn to go? We can do what Luide suggested and just look at each model at each Initiative Step, but since there is no rule that says a model's initiative could change in the middle of a phase it is really irrelevant if you do it at the start or at each Step. It is just easier to do it at the beginning all in one go.

There doesn't have to be a rule saying it can change in the middle of a phase.
Lash Whips/Whip Coils have permission to change your initiative - there's no limit or delay on when it happens.
You must find something that denies that permission until the next round.
Saying "It's easier" isn't a good way to make a rules argument.

Or, we could all decide it at the beginning of the Fight Sub-phase and make the whole thing go so much more smooth.

That could very well be RAI (but I disagree). It's not what's written.

No matter which way you choose to do it you cannot change a model's initiative mid fight.

You still haven't cited a rule denying the permission granted by LW/WC.

If I start at Initiative 5 and come into contact with a model with Lashwhips/Whip Coils I am still Initiative 5 until the end of the phase.

No, you're not. With Whip Coils you're Initiative 1 as long as you're in base contact. With Lash Whips you're Initiative 1 until the end of the assault phase, starting from when you made base contact.
To make it work your way, you'd have to find a rule that either a) changes the wording of LW/WC or b) states that initiative cannot be changed in the middle of a phase.

If I get hit with a TH and don't die from the unsaved Wound I am not Initiative 1 until the next round of combat. Even a TH cannot change Initiative until the end of the next round of combat. Granted the TH goes last, but that is hardly the point.

Again, assertion without supporting facts.