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 Vaktathi wrote:

With regards to armies that 6E has kicked in the balls, anything that relied heavily on close combat, any list built heavily around reserves, and any list built around tanks really took a hit. heavy infantry gunlines, deathstar units, flyers, and Necrons are the kings of 6E.

Why did reserve armies get hurt? Sure, some non-Daemon armies which relied upon majority of the force coming out of reserves are probably nerfed, but on the other hand, reserves are much more reliable now, and deep strike is 50% less likely to kill the unit.

As for tanks, transports and probably Walkers are nerfed, but actual tanks are not. In the 5th, vehicles like Hammerheads, Falcons and Leman Russes spent the entire game always shaken & stunned, or had their main weapon immediately blown off. Now my Hammerheads maybe are slightly less durable in the long run, but they sure get to shoot more.

Backfire wrote:

Why did reserve armies get hurt? Sure, some non-Daemon armies which relied upon majority of the force coming out of reserves are probably nerfed, but on the other hand, reserves are much more reliable now, and deep strike is 50% less likely to kill the unit.

You can't assault out of reserves, you can't hold more than 50% of your force in reserves, you can't assault from reserves, and if you have nothing on the board you lose. This breaks several army builds that previously existed in 5th edition. Eldar reserve denial armies for example that held everything in reserve and arrived en-masse turn 2, tyranid armies built around outflanking genestealers, etc.

As for tanks, transports and probably Walkers are nerfed, but actual tanks are not. In the 5th, vehicles like Hammerheads, Falcons and Leman Russes spent the entire game always shaken & stunned,

Having playing tank heavy armies for several editions, this is simply untrue. They did not spend the entire game shaken or stunned, and if they did, it was a rare combination of odd dice luck. They're only slightly less hard to shake/stun now (penetrations still shake/stun just fine), and require less than half the average firepower to destroy them from most weapons, while lighter weapons contribute far more to their destruction and in CC they are easier to kill against anything with Krak grenades (available to more than half the armies in the game as free equipment on basic troops) than 2 basic tac marines are to most foes. This is of course on top of not even being able to contest objectives anymore as well.

or had their main weapon immediately blown off.

Hrm, not really much moreso than now, you have a 1/36 lesser chance to lose a weapon than before on any given hit, that's it. Granted it's randomized now but if it only has one gun it doesn't make a difference. On the other hand you have a drastically lowered lifespan and utility in terms of mission objectives.

I still don't understand why some people say the Grey Knights got nerfed this edition. They most definitely didn't. They are still a 1st Tier army that curb stomps most other lists without trying. Hell the local game store has slowly morphed into Necrons and GK only. (Mostly GK.)

Nids (despite Genesteelers taking a big hit) got a bit better. Necrons got crazy good and Orks got much worse.

Then there's the poor Tau... already so old and over costed that they lose most games. Now their really expensive tanks blow up at the drop of a hat...

 Vaktathi wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Why did reserve armies get hurt? Sure, some non-Daemon armies which relied upon majority of the force coming out of reserves are probably nerfed, but on the other hand, reserves are much more reliable now, and deep strike is 50% less likely to kill the unit.

You can't assault out of reserves, you can't hold more than 50% of your force in reserves, you can't assault from reserves, and if you have nothing on the board you lose. This breaks several army builds that previously existed in 5th edition. Eldar reserve denial armies for example that held everything in reserve and arrived en-masse turn 2, tyranid armies built around outflanking genestealers, etc.

But outside of Stealer lists, most of those weren't that common. Not that many people played Ninja Tau, for example. As said, in some ways reserve heavy armies also gained.

Having playing tank heavy armies for several editions, this is simply untrue. They did not spend the entire game shaken or stunned, and if they did, it was a rare combination of odd dice luck. They're only slightly less hard to shake/stun now (penetrations still shake/stun just fine), and require less than half the average firepower to destroy them from most weapons, while lighter weapons contribute far more to their destruction and in CC they are easier to kill against anything with Krak grenades (available to more than half the armies in the game as free equipment on basic troops) than 2 basic tac marines are to most foes. This is of course on top of not even being able to contest objectives anymore as well.

Your "rare combination" happened with almost every game, especially after mass str8 shooting became commonplace. I think I saw a Vindicator get a shot off maybe three times total during entire 5th edition. That's one reason why Tau players moved to Broadsides, sure Hammerheads were fairly hard to kill, but not at all that hard to neutralize. And most tanks have more than one gun, so change to Weapon Destroyed result is actually pretty big one. In 5th edition, there was just 1/6 chance that a glancing hit didn't prevent you from shooting next turn (that "lucky" result was Immobilization). As someone said, that is why Fortitude was so huge advantage for GK, it made their vehicles almost immune to that.

Most people consider it a GOOD thing that last-minute vehicle objective contest is gone.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nox wrote:
I still don't understand why some people say the Grey Knights got nerfed this edition. They most definitely didn't. They are still a 1st Tier army that curb stomps most other lists without trying. Hell the local game store has slowly morphed into Necrons and GK only. (Mostly GK.)

It's probably less that their stuff got nerfed (Force weapons did, but many armies don't have 2+ saves) and more that some of their big advantages mean less. Fortitude, for example. All-around Storm bolters are less of an advantage now that Rapid fire got better.

 Nox wrote:

Then there's the poor Tau... already so old and over costed that they lose most games. Now their really expensive tanks blow up at the drop of a hat...

Hammerheads are better in 6th than they were in 5th. Not that it matters, since late-5th edition Tau armies didn't make much use of Hammerhead, or tanks in general.

Tau gained big time in 6th edition. Rapid fire is much better now. Bane of Tau army - multi-assault - got seriously nerfed. Overwatch also helps Tau. Weaker cover saves mean that Tau shooting is more effective.

Dark Eldar got kicked hard and fell the most but I think regular Eldar got nailed a little harder. They just didn't have as far to fall. They still have tricks (or a trick, fortune) but for the same reasons the Dark Eldar have been hurt (everyone gets faster, saves more important, changes in rapid fire weapons) plus their lack of flyers and the fact their vehicles were designed to be survivable (and thus pointed higher) aren't as survivable gives the "edge" to the Eldar.

 Nox wrote:
I still don't understand why some people say the Grey Knights got nerfed this edition. They most definitely didn't. They are still a 1st Tier army that curb stomps most other lists without trying. Hell the local game store has slowly morphed into Necrons and GK only. (Mostly GK.)

Being nerfed doesn't mean they got nerfed into obscurity. Going from (essentially) army wide AP2 to army wide AP3 is a nerf. No one ever said Grey Knights were rubbish.

 Ailaros wrote:
Lol. Yeah, GK are REAL uncompetitive now...

Lots of armies got hurt pretty badly by 6th ed. The new rules means that AV14 is actually stronger than AV12, which is actually stronger than AV10. Likewise, termies are actually better than marines/4+ armies, which are actually better than hordes. CC got blasted everywhere.

As such, if you were an army that relied on hordes of crappy units, it's going to be tough for you now, especially if you're a foot commander. CC hordes are basically unplayable now, especially now that hidden upgrades have all but vanished.

40k is quickly turning into a game where tough, killy units are dominating lots of weaker, less-killy-individually armies. Now is not a good time to play footdar, guard foot horde, or green tide...

As someone who played greentide all through 5th, I have to agree. CC hordes just ain't what they used to be. It breaks my orky heart

 Dendarien wrote:

As someone who played greentide all through 5th, I have to agree. CC hordes just ain't what they used to be. It breaks my orky heart

Is that because CC got nerfed or because cover did?

Backfire wrote:

But outside of Stealer lists, most of those weren't that common. Not that many people played Ninja Tau, for example. As said, in some ways reserve heavy armies also gained.

They were quite common for some armies. Eldar, Dark Eldar (especially webway portal), Tyranids, etc. Most already had ways to make reserves quite reliable.

Your "rare combination" happened with almost every game, especially after mass str8 shooting became commonplace.

Your tanks spent the entire game stunned routinely? I played very tank heavy armies through both 4th and 5th, and never had it happen routinely, not significantly more than it occurs now. They either died, or you were able to hide them/move them out of harms way or destroy the opposing unit.

I think I saw a Vindicator get a shot off maybe three times total during entire 5th edition.

Vindicators are a special case, but the only way it's going to be different in 6th is if those hits were all glances and no pen's, otherwise 0 difference has been made in that regard, and it's more likely that it never gets a shot off due to being dead now with the same amount of firepower thrown at it.

That's one reason why Tau players moved to Broadsides, sure Hammerheads were fairly hard to kill, but not at all that hard to neutralize.

No, the primary reason was that you can pack in more firepower. For the cost of a kitted Hammerhead you got two broadsides with two railguns and a better average hit rate plus some drones to soak fire.

And most tanks have more than one gun, so change to Weapon Destroyed result is actually pretty big one.

Depends on what you're armed with, but yes in some ways it's very nice.

In 5th edition, there was just 1/6 chance that a glancing hit didn't prevent you from shooting next turn (that "lucky" result was Immobilization).

Right, but the tank also had utility in other ways and if it's stunned for 2 turns out of 6, that's fine, it's better than shooting 2 and being dead 4.

As someone said, that is why Fortitude was so huge advantage for GK, it made their vehicles almost immune to that.

Yup, and that's why it was ridiculous in 5th ed, but it's also not like it's meaningless in 6th either, it's still very powerful as most of their vehicles are AV11/12 and many common weapons will pen more than they glance and still cause lots of shaken/stunned results.

Most people consider it a GOOD thing that last-minute vehicle objective contest is gone.

I'm wondering why vehicles are special eggs here. MC's, jetbikes, jump infantry, flying MC's, etc can all still do this quite well and can *score* in many instances too still, not only contest. Only vehicles got singled out, why are vehicles so unique that they can't be allowed to do the same thing?

Vehicle scoring was also more than just zipping a falcon across the board at the end of turn 6 too.

Backfire wrote:

Hammerheads are better in 6th than they were in 5th. Not that it matters, since late-5th edition Tau armies didn't make much use of Hammerhead, or tanks in general.

Tau gained big time in 6th edition. Rapid fire is much better now. Bane of Tau army - multi-assault - got seriously nerfed. Overwatch also helps Tau. Weaker cover saves mean that Tau shooting is more effective.

Personally, I wouldn't say that Hammerheads are better now simply because it is way to easy to glance them to death in 6th Ed. Your Hammerheads have to stay alive to do damage and focused fire will eliminate them pretty quickly.

Tau did get a boost in the Rapid Fire department but so did all other armies. That one for me comes out as pretty much a wash.

Overwatch helps against assault but given the fact that you only hit on a 6 and they still get a save means that in most cases you will be lucky to kill a single assaulting model or two before they rip through your Tau in assault.

Given the Tau's relatively week armor, reduced cover saves hurt them more than armies like Space Marines. Also, don't forget that the reduced cover saves, no outflank assaults, and magic forests all but killed the poor Kroot. Which in the past edition was a more popular (effective and cost effective) troop choice than the Fire Warrior.

 Testify wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

As someone who played greentide all through 5th, I have to agree. CC hordes just ain't what they used to be. It breaks my orky heart

Is that because CC got nerfed or because cover did?

It's a comprehensive package.

Firstly, hidden upgrades aren't hidden anymore. If the mob shows up without its nob, just how much chopping are they doing?

Secondly, yes, cover is worse.

Thirdly, you now have random charge ranges.

Fourthly, you now have overwatch.

And then pair it off against shooting, which got better rapid fire, and vehicles that can move and still shoot everything.

And then the coup de grace is new wound allocation. You have to remove guys from the front of the squad, which means that if you're practicing proper displacement (so you aren't eaten alive by blast and template wepaons), it's now going to take you at least an extra turn to get into close combat.

Getting into close combat AT ALL is a miracle with a horde army against someone who knows what to do in the shooting phase (made easier thanks to pre-measuring). If you manage to make it in, you're going to be doing it with way fewer models, which makes you less likely to actually win combat. Then you have to put up with challenges picking out Ld models (or precise strikes), and the new pile in makes it more difficult to get as many models engaged in the close combat. Good luck making it into 2" of someone in base contact with an enemy at I2 or 3 when everybody that's in base contact has been killed, once again, due to new wound allocation.

The only way close combat works now is if you have some way to basically guarantee that they can get there basically unmolested, and you've got to have a greater killing power concentration than your opponent. This basically limits it to DoA BA, termies in a land raider or a few ultrafast units like necron chariots.

Other than that, you're looking at injured CC units mopping up all but destroyed enemy units in a countercharge role.

 Testify wrote:

 Dendarien wrote:

As someone who played greentide all through 5th, I have to agree. CC hordes just ain't what they used to be. It breaks my orky heart

Is that because CC got nerfed or because cover did?

It is honestly a combination of a lot of things. Being unable to run and charge (with fleet) hurt. Sure orks get fleet for 1 turn, but it hardly makes up for the fact we are pulling casualties from the front.

The 5+ cover isn't that bad. While the 4+ was nice, it wasn't nearly as certain as people seem to think it was. Honestly it's like having a KFF everywhere, so the change to cover wasn't huge.

It is also much harder to hide PKs in our mobs, which is something blob guard got hit hard by too.

Between pulling casualties from the front, random charge distance and the new deployment types, it is just plain harder to make contact. I'm not sure CC got a lot worse (but it did certainly get nerfs), but shooting got a whole lot better all around.

Edit: Ailaros basically said everything better

 Testify wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Testify wrote:

Hm, no. Land Raiders and Russes do not get glanced to death.

That's news to me. Most weapons (aside from meltas) used to engage these tanks have a not insignificant chance to glance (e.g. Lascannons glance as often as they pen, Railguns glance 33% of the time, etc), and Leman Russ tanks are no harder to kill in CC than a Trukk or Rhino. Most kills against these vehicles that I'm seeing in my games, when they aren't inflicted by meltas, are done through HP destruction, of which glances count just as much as pens.

It's not impossible or even unusual to kill such vehicles through glancing hits. Hell, it's easier than it ever has been before in the history of the game to kill them through glancing hits.

Maybe it's a meta thing. I would never waste a lascannon against AV14, unless I'd already destroyed all of the weaker targets. When I used to play mech guard, my opponent would do the same. Lascannons against the chimeras, meltaguns for the Russes. I thought that was pretty common.

It was, and I reckon it still is.

Ailaros wrote:Firstly, hidden upgrades aren't hidden anymore. If the mob shows up without its nob, just how much chopping are they doing?

I've seen you mention this a lot, and I have to ask, what on earth are you talking about? Maybe I just don't understand what you mean here, but since 5th edition at least lists have been non secret where your opponent had the freedom to look at every detail, so there were no secrets. Is there something you are refering to that broke this rule that I'm not thinking of?

By "hidden" I mean "untargetable".

Back in the day, if you had a guy with a meltagun, you could always ensure that he was the last surviving member of the squad. In 4th ed, it was justified that if a person with a shiny gun died, one of his buddies would ditch his worthless small arm so that he could pick up a shiny, new, only lightly-spattered meltagn that was being carelessly left on the ground. Now, though, I guess nobody gets cross-trained in weapons.

Anyways, before 6th edition, you could ensure that your killing power upgrades survived long enough to be able to be used. There are several things that make it possible for said weapon upgrades to get picked out of a squad before they have a chance to get used now.

Not that big of a deal for armies that didn't rely on hidden weapons (like tau or GK or necron or eldar), but it basically ruined armies that were relying on hidden weapons to get the job done, like orks or foot guard or CSM or SM.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks an AV10, open-topped vehicle is easier to kill because of hull points.

If anything, an AV10, open-topped vehicle could have an infinity sign under it's HP, and would still be dead by turn 2.

On the greentide gettin a good kicking, I'd say that is for just about all ork builds. Our PK nobs leading boy units were usually the ones dishing out the real pain. Now, in a game where he can get challenged out of the combat, and killed by most ICs, and snipers, and focused fire, and sniping barrage weapons(seriously wtf)...

Personally my biggest beef was the outflanking-charge nerf... I used to outflank 45 kommandos (one unit led by snikrot with my warboss in tow) along with 9-12 outflanking koptas that in large parts relied on the kommandos to take the heat off. That's ALOT of shelved models, and have left me scratching my head on how to make an ork list... Some people have said that if you relied on the so called auto-win of charging with snikrot in the rear, and koptas charging vehicles, you need to start thinking..

C'mon! It's not like people (except a few of us die-hard bloodaxe players) used more than a minimal snikrot unit bringing in a bikerboss, and 3 single claw koptas first turn assaulting... Why couldn't they have settled on a "you may not assault on the first game turn", and a quick FAQing that snykke couldn't bring a Mega armoured or frikking bike driving warboss SNEAKING behond enemy lines?

*rage* yes, I'm taking it a bit personally. Was it ever THAT OP that orks had a shot at taking out enemy vehicles (3 of 'em, and not guaranteed) turn one? Was snikrot showing up like SW scouts ever THAT game breaking? Genestealers from the flanks *irony detector explodes* were REALLY OTT making even GK tremble in their shoes....

*sigh* most annoying nerf EVER IMHO. Yeah, I agree that single pk koptas doing their turn one assault was silly, but there's SO many ways they could have balanced that through a FAQ... Either as I stated earlier, or simply saying you could only upgrade one to carry a saw out of three, and if you brought 5, could have two...

then again, I'm still generally pissed off at the "new" ork dex and would rather have the older one back, with point cuts in line with the rest though...
*Goesofftocontinuegrumblinginacorner*

In my experience, Nob/Meganob-in-trukk heavy Ork lists with a ton of Gretchin to claim objectives work really well. Foot Orks don't work at all in any form.

Blood Angels and Ravenwing lists are gonna be interesting too, 6th loves Jump Infantry and Bikers...

How do you mean loves jump inf?
I thought regular assault marines, seraphim and stormboys were still considered to be next to worthless, and stormboys torally worthless? What am I missing?

 WaaaaghLord wrote:
In my experience, Nob/Meganob-in-trukk heavy Ork lists with a ton of Gretchin to claim objectives work really well. Foot Orks don't work at all in any form.

Blood Angels and Ravenwing lists are gonna be interesting too, 6th loves Jump Infantry and Bikers...

BA Jump infantry maybe, my vanilla jump infantry is still pretty meh, but I agree with the bikers since they no longer have to worry about that odd double toughness score.

 Ailaros wrote:
By "hidden" I mean "untargetable".

Back in the day, if you had a guy with a meltagun, you could always ensure that he was the last surviving member of the squad. In 4th ed, it was justified that if a person with a shiny gun died, one of his buddies would ditch his worthless small arm so that he could pick up a shiny, new, only lightly-spattered meltagn that was being carelessly left on the ground. Now, though, I guess nobody gets cross-trained in weapons.

Anyways, before 6th edition, you could ensure that your killing power upgrades survived long enough to be able to be used. There are several things that make it possible for said weapon upgrades to get picked out of a squad before they have a chance to get used now.

Not that big of a deal for armies that didn't rely on hidden weapons (like tau or GK or necron or eldar), but it basically ruined armies that were relying on hidden weapons to get the job done, like orks or foot guard or CSM or SM.

Positioning helps, the only time I have issues against things is if they run barrage weapons, and than thats why redundancy helps, same with Look out sir!.

I'm still winning with my green tide though.

 Ailaros wrote:
Back in the day, if you had a guy with a meltagun, you could always ensure that he was the last surviving member of the squad. In 4th ed, it was justified that if a person with a shiny gun died, one of his buddies would ditch his worthless small arm so that he could pick up a shiny, new, only lightly-spattered meltagn that was being carelessly left on the ground. Now, though, I guess nobody gets cross-trained in weapons.

Well, in many cases it makes sense that someone would be loath to pick up the fallen weapon. If snipers are picking off all your meltaguns, do you want to volunteer to pick up the meltagun? Similarly, some weapons can't simply be "picked up" in such a fashion-- many of the Space Marine heavy weapons have backpack power feeds attached to the gunner's armor, which seem unlikely to be removable in the field. So while the old way did make sense in many cases, the new way does too-- it's all a matter of how you look at it.

Seriously, though. You're a guardsmen with a lasgun. A monstrous trygon breaks through the ground below you. Sitting next to you is a meltagun. Nah, better to just shoot it with a lasgun.

So there are lots of things that kill off hidden weapons, but the most disturbing one I've found is wound allocation. You don't need to kill off the whole squad, you've just got to kill the squad to the point where the upgrade weapon is the closest model to one of your units.

The only way to fix this is by putting weapons upgrades WAY in the back. This basically makes special and CC weapons pointless (as they'll never actually get into range to use them), and heavy weapons nearly pointless, as you're often going to have to hide them somwewhere with crappy fire lanes.

Add to that wound allocation from deepstrikers and outflankers, and precision shots, and precision strikes, and barrage sniping, and some oldie but goodies (like mind war), and it's pretty tough to keep your upgrades alive if you were relying on them for your killing power.

Yes, sergeants do get LoS!, but 4+ is not 1+.

 Jag_Calle wrote:
On the greentide gettin a good kicking, I'd say that is for just about all ork builds. Our PK nobs leading boy units were usually the ones dishing out the real pain. Now, in a game where he can get challenged out of the combat, and killed by most ICs, and snipers, and focused fire, and sniping barrage weapons(seriously wtf)...

Personally my biggest beef was the outflanking-charge nerf... I used to outflank 45 kommandos (one unit led by snikrot with my warboss in tow) along with 9-12 outflanking koptas that in large parts relied on the kommandos to take the heat off. That's ALOT of shelved models, and have left me scratching my head on how to make an ork list... Some people have said that if you relied on the so called auto-win of charging with snikrot in the rear, and koptas charging vehicles, you need to start thinking..

C'mon! It's not like people (except a few of us die-hard bloodaxe players) used more than a minimal snikrot unit bringing in a bikerboss, and 3 single claw koptas first turn assaulting... Why couldn't they have settled on a "you may not assault on the first game turn", and a quick FAQing that snykke couldn't bring a Mega armoured or frikking bike driving warboss SNEAKING behond enemy lines?

*rage* yes, I'm taking it a bit personally. Was it ever THAT OP that orks had a shot at taking out enemy vehicles (3 of 'em, and not guaranteed) turn one? Was snikrot showing up like SW scouts ever THAT game breaking? Genestealers from the flanks *irony detector explodes* were REALLY OTT making even GK tremble in their shoes....

*sigh* most annoying nerf EVER IMHO. Yeah, I agree that single pk koptas doing their turn one assault was silly, but there's SO many ways they could have balanced that through a FAQ... Either as I stated earlier, or simply saying you could only upgrade one to carry a saw out of three, and if you brought 5, could have two...

then again, I'm still generally pissed off at the "new" ork dex and would rather have the older one back, with point cuts in line with the rest though...
*Goesofftocontinuegrumblinginacorner*

I agree, 6th has been tough on orks. The truly sad part is we went from a codex where there was a good variety of competitive builds: greentide, KoS, kanwall, BW spam...to pretty much just nob bikers.

Ok, I'm a Grey Knights player and I keep hearing these debates about how bad we got nerfed or not. I havnt been playing much until recently so I'm a little rusty on a few things but as far as I can tell the only real hits I'm seeing are that force weapons are ap3 now and we can't allocate wounds with diff equipped paladins. But with decent lookout sir rolls you can essentially allocate at will

Are there more nerfs I'm missing that justify all this talk of us being nerfed to death? If so can someone fill me in cuz I'm just not seeing it.

Id really appreciate some input guys, thanks

 Nox wrote:
I still don't understand why some people say the Grey Knights got nerfed this edition. They most definitely didn't. They are still a 1st Tier army that curb stomps most other lists without trying. Hell the local game store has slowly morphed into Necrons and GK only. (Mostly GK.)

Subjective experience from one store where people apparently aren't playing anything else to base your hypothesis on isn't very compelling. Nerf means got worse. Grey Knights are still very good, but not as much as they were, thus they got nerfed. Their Force Weapons got worse, assault got worse (which made a lot of their options worse), vehicles got worse, and Rapid Fire weapons got a bit better taking away a little bit of the edge the Storm Bolters had. There are a few other things as well, but you get the point. They took a lot of small hits, enough to mellow them out, but not enough to stop them being powerful. They are what they should have been IMO.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Grey Knights are still very good, but not as much as they were, thus they got nerfed. Their Force Weapons got worse, assault got worse (which made a lot of their options worse), vehicles got worse, and Rapid Fire weapons got a bit better taking away a little bit of the edge the Storm Bolters had. There are a few other things as well, but you get the point.

Yes, they got absolutely worse, but they got relatively better. 6th ed rules instigated a race for the bottom. GK were only slightly dinged, while other armies were crucified.

As such, GK are relatively better than other armies now. Therefore, practically speaking, they got buffed.

Someone said Terminators got worse and I do not see that at all.

They've never been able to chase their opponent down after combat and in melee hardly anything cuts through a 2+ anymore. If anything they're stronger.

Tyranids are doing pretty well around here. They took a few hits here and there, but the new psychic powers and the removal of No Retreat are significant buffs to the army. Even Rage changing from being uncontrollable to just extra attacks was a noticeable boon.

 Ailaros wrote:
Seriously, though. You're a guardsmen with a lasgun. A monstrous trygon breaks through the ground below you. Sitting next to you is a meltagun. Nah, better to just shoot it with a lasgun.

Youre assuming the bolt round that caused the poor melta gunner to explode over his friends didnt also damage the gun. Would you want to risk a slightly hissing meltagun, even if it looks in a useable state? Read deadmen walking for the DKoK approach to saving meltaguns!

MBT took a slight buff this edition in performing their main role - shooting. Previously a glance left you not shooting, and the opponent could move on to the next vehicle. I know running foot terminator GK this was always my desire in 5th - suppression was as good a result for me as killing the tank, as i knoew i could kill it in CC with reasonable ease. Now a glance isnt good enough, i have to dedicate more power to killing it

In 4th a glancing 6 could kill a vehicle, so it is easier to kill a vehicle now with a *succession* of glances, but a single glance could kill you in 4th - so its a wash there

Transports do what they should do - get your troops further up the field, and then die. No more razorback spam lasting the game.

 Ailaros wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Grey Knights are still very good, but not as much as they were, thus they got nerfed. Their Force Weapons got worse, assault got worse (which made a lot of their options worse), vehicles got worse, and Rapid Fire weapons got a bit better taking away a little bit of the edge the Storm Bolters had. There are a few other things as well, but you get the point.

Yes, they got absolutely worse, but they got relatively better. 6th ed rules instigated a race for the bottom. GK were only slightly dinged, while other armies were crucified.
As such, GK are relatively better than other armies now. Therefore, practically speaking, they got buffed.

This is obviously false. GK got hit harder than most other armies. Note that GK also needed to get nerfed, but claiming they were relatively 'buffed' is plain lying. Lets compare other armies:
1) Necrons. Got 5 good changes for each bad one. One could say Necrons currently are one tier better than Tier 1 armies, like GK, IG and SW.
2) IG got mixed results. Valkyries and Vendettas were good before and are even better now. Vehicle squadrons got better. Some setups, like foot guard did suffer. But this doesn't mean IG got 'crucified', far from it.
3) SW: Didn't get hit that hard. Runepriests got relatively lot better, now that Hoods are nerfed.
4) BA. No charge from non-assault vehicle hurt these guys, but it hurt GK also.
5) Nids. Arguably got better with FMCs. Cover was weakened on one hand, but easier to get for MC's on other hand.
6) Tau. Rapid fire changes buffed them.
7) Eldar. Not sure about final effects. Skimmers got boost, Runes of Warding became better both relatively and absolutely with change in Hoods and Perils.
8) Orks. Nob bikers should still be viable, but not sure about other builds.

GK got hit hard by many things. Fortitude going from awesome to situational at best is good example. GK builds suffer a lot from inability to charge from non-assault vehicles, as did BA Razorspam. Power weapons going AP3 means GK suffered relatively more than other armies, because GK have more power weapons.
Now, these changes don't mean GK suck. It only means their power level is far more in level with other armies. Personally I think GK being nerfed was good thing.

I'm not really sure what Codex got 'crucified'. DE perhaps? Some specific army builds might have become unviable in 6e, that I can agree with. But IG as whole definitely didn't get 'crucified'.