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Have you considered using the vets to complement your PIS's? I tend to run 5 squads of carapace vets: 3 melta squads and 2 plasma, backing up a five squad platoon of plasma guard. That gives me a pretty durable front that opponents generally try to hang back from, and I haven't been able to try it out with an Aegis, yet.

Nave Senrag wrote:Have you considered using the vets to complement your PIS's?

I did once, but the two didn't feel like they mixed that well on the table. Perhaps if my vets don't work out as exactly as I'd like, I'll reconsider.

Veskrashen wrote:All your Vets and Stormies have Krak grenades. Thus, you're hitting those skimmers on 3+ and glancing on 4+ with all 90 of your guardsmen of various flavors. This won't help you against the flyers, of course, but against the skimmers it definitely will.

If only they could survive long enough to get there...

Of course, there was the additional problem here with the chariots, who attack back in close combat.

Veskrashen wrote:I think the biggest factor for you might be the dice, though. Have you looked at: http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/the-quest-for-holy-grail-average.html Turns out that most of the rounded edge cheap mini dice roll significantly more 1s than they ought to.

Definitely seems to reflect your experience...

So, my gold colored dice are actually precision backgammon dice. The $5 per pair hand-crafted-to-be-used-in-riviera-casinos dice. I use them for any roll that I need to make 4 or fewer of. In this case, it's not the dice, it's the luck.

The opaque dice from Kopchow haven't actually treated me that poorly, at least, not poorly relative to the precision dice. They're certainly a LOT better than the old chessex cubes I used to buy.

bogalubov wrote:I think a lot of us are annoyed that we have to buy flyers where before you could get by without having any. Now, if you don't bring your own flyers you are starting in a hole.

The thing is, though, I'm actually not convinced that you need to have fliers, either to take out other fliers or in general.

I mean, I've played 3 games with fliers already. In the first game, I took down 4 of 12 HP of fliers. In the second game, I took down 3 of the 6 HP of fliers my opponent took. In this game I stripped off 10 of the 12 HP worth of fliers my opponent brought. I mean, with just thinking things through a little bit, I've gotten it to the point where I can nearly handle fliers with nothing but infantry, much less needing to go to the far end of taking vendettas for anti-air.

I really don't see the situation against fliers as being so hopeless that their only recourse is a single unit which will be required to win any games with guard.

Red Corsair wrote:if you are being blasted by fliers then you need to snap fire anyway against them so going to ground for a 2++

You mean the 2+ ADL cover saves that fliers ignore? They're high enough that they can just shoot over the ADL at the guys inside. They need to actually be obscured to be able to take the save.

Even in the worst case scenario, my opponent can always just focus fire on those models that aren't obscured.

Red Corsair wrote:Again I feel like you are Knee capping yourself with these restrictions though.

To be fair, it's A restriction against vendettas. Yes, there are a lot of good reasons to take them, but I only need one reason not to - I don't want to show up and look like a cock. The reputation of a vendetta precedes them, a reputation I'm not interested in investing myself with.

On an interesting similar note, now that it seems that fanbois have entirely abandoned the hydra, it may well be possible to start taking them without needing to hide my face in shame...

Red Corsair wrote: What is turning you off about transports out of curiosity? Is it spamming them? Because that's a choice not a rule. Two chimers and one vendetta and I think you will make your army much more potent, and by no means is it bandwagoning, those are super fun units to field.

I guess I don't really know what I'm getting from having just a single chimera or two. As for taking a lot, the bias comes from nothing but preference. I'm just not a treadhead enough to seriously consider mech guard.

Red Corsair wrote: I am having fun running this exercise but I feel the solution has been forced on us this edition and it was no miscalculation.

As you may be aware, I rather don't like getting forced to do things. Furthermore, despite my crippling losses, I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. So far I've used only 23 of the 39 units in the guard codex since it came out. There's still a lot to work with, here.

More importantly, I'm still seeing improvement. I feel like this is something that creativity and patience will bear out in the end. I mean, if CC foot guard was "impossible" 4 years ago, and then it wound up being really, really possible, I have confidence that the current "impossibility" of running foot guard will wind up going the same way.

NWansbutter wrote:Another thought -- your disappointment with the quad gun has me thinking Icarus Lascannon. I just some quick and dirty math hammer Wansbutter style (i.e. just rolling a bunch of dice pretending that it represents different scenarios in a battle) this evening, and despite only having one shot (non-twin-linked) the Str 9 and +1 to damage result roll is huge. I did a bunch of dice rolling positing my blob's commissar manning the gun and consistently came up with a lot more kills. I guess the moral is who cares if you hit it more times if it's harder to damage it? Have you tried the Icarus lascannon?

You know, let's do the actual math here. Let's assume, for the sake of standards, that the shot is BS3, and that the target doesn't have cover.

Against an AV11 flier, the lascannon shoots once (.5) and causes a HP 5/6ths of the time (.42), and wrecks the vehicle outright on a .22. The quadcannon hits 3 times for 1.5 HP stripped off, and a .166 wrecked vehicles. Assuming two shots, the icarus will knock off 1.6 HP, and will wreck the vehicle .44. Meanwhile, the quadcannon will likely cause 3 HP or .33 wrecks

Put another way, against AV11 fliers, they are both just about equal at wrecking the vehicle outright, but the quad gun is more consistent, putting down twice as many glances.

Of course, if you take the .42/.22 and the 1.5/.166 numbers and change the parameters a bit, things come out a touch different. If you assume the operator is BS4, for example, those numbers become .56/.29 compared to 1.8/.19 (slightly favors the icarus), and if you assume cover, it's .27/.14 compared to 1/.11 (hurts both equally).

For AV12, the numbers after a single round of shooting look like .333/.11 compared the the quad gun's .5/.03 In this case, of course, the icarus looks better, putting out nearly as many glances, and having any real chance to blow up the vehicle outright.

I suppose it's still a question of value, though. Is a 1 in 9 chance frequent enough to make the icarus worth it? Ignore the quadgun, and just focus on those odds.

As for the vets, it's actually kind of interesting as well. Comparing a single autocannon to a single lascannon (because that's what's practically speaking going to happen), the autocannon is .166/.02 while the lascannon is .14/.04 against AV11, and takes the dominance to a new level with AV12.

So, what do we take from this? Against AV11 the quadgun puts down twice as many glances (enough to actually kill stuff), for the same chance at blowing a flyer up. Against AV12, the two are roughly equal, both putting out about as many glances and both having a rather poor chance to blow something up outright (though the lascannon does actually have a chance while you've got to be really lucky to do it with the quad gun).

For infantry. Shoot fliers with lascannons. Don't bother with autocannons. Of course, don't expect much either way. Even the 1 in 20 shots of blowing up a flier with a lascannon seem pretty bad.

So if Vendettas are taken out of the equation entirely (which is a shame since the best defense against fliers are other fliers, but I see why you choose to avoid them), what options are left which can deal with not only fliers, but are also competitive choices against the "usual suspects" you are likely to see. I see this coming down to efficiency (as per usual with Foot Guard). A few thoughts on some of the choices you seems to be warming towards to far (from an opponents perspective I guess):

As HQ choices go there really is little reason to not take at least 1 CCS. Orders, special weapons, high BS. They also synergize really well with foot IG.

Haven't had any experience vs the Primaris Psyker but if he's working out then I say see if he can consistently earn his keep.

I'm also getting behind the idea of Storm Troopers. They can give you Linebreaker, disrupt enemy plans and bring the pain to backfield long range shooting. And at AP3 even marines fear them. They may not benefit from orders due to the way they deploy, but with the increased BS I think it's not a big issue. Also the fact that if your entire army relies on orders to be effective you are inevitably going to run out of orders to give. Now that glances hurt and the fact they can get rear/side shots on armour maybe plasma is the more attractive option.

The we come to Troops, and in all honesty the only choices I see worth taking are Platoon Infantry Squads or Veterans. They both pack a punch at range so the question is do you want quality or quantity? You can start spending upgrades to improve the Vets somewhat, but then the saturation factor comes in. Do you want better guns on more survivable bodies or just more guns? Personally I'm not sold either way, but saturation of firepower is IG's largest strength so perhaps I would slightly lean towards PCS and PIS for my bullets. More bodies and all that. As I said though, not completely sold either way.

Good luck with the testing.

As I don't play Imperial Guard, I can't really help with the list-building stuff.

But I can add this: every time Melchoir decides to get up close and personal to help his platoon, I hear the Rocky theme playing.

 Ailaros wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:Again I feel like you are Knee capping yourself with these restrictions though.

To be fair, it's A restriction against vendettas. Yes, there are a lot of good reasons to take them, but I only need one reason not to - I don't want to show up and look like a cock. The reputation of a vendetta precedes them, a reputation I'm not interested in investing myself with.

On an interesting similar note, now that it seems that fanbois have entirely abandoned the hydra, it may well be possible to start taking them without needing to hide my face in shame...

I don't even know where to start, that is how ignorant that line of remarks was. I feel offended for anybody who ever wanted to play a unit for the sake of the model or the fact that it's fun to use, heck even hard core gamers. Your entitled to your opinion, but I fail to recognize how using a strong unit in an aging codex makes someone a cock. Further more, I saw more angry and bitter people in regards to blob squads then I have ever run into with mech spam or vendettas. I am sorry but hidden power weapons on cheap guardsmen kicking ass and taking names from terminators in CC was and forever will be completely ridiculous, and so was universal 4++ cover save from overlapping units for that matter. I mean, heaven forbid units have some shred of realism applied to them now.You know what wars sucked? Wars of attrition, fought in close quarters like WWI, thousands died for mere feet. I think it is understandable how the exact same infantry tactics applied 38k years in the future would still fail. Now if you want to point the finger at spamming in 40k I will agree to some degree. It builds boring lists that get stale quickly. By no means is using any option going to make any body a cock, that remark is shades of stupid. "There are so many reasons not to smoke, but I only need one reason to smoke. I want to look cool!" = Fail.
Also, most of the units you have yet to utilize are armored units, repackaging 100 to 115 t3 wounds is not going do solve the issue here. The best way to aqueeze efficiency out of every slot and point is to take chimeras. 55pts for a str 6 turret and a hull HB or HF, command vehicle, amphibious, search light, smoke launchers and a hatch that allows for 5 to fire HW teams counting as 1all on an av12 chassis with a short profile.... Yea clearly its just the talking heads of the net, it's not that obvious cost/benefit ratio of everything you get on an av12 transport for a mere 55 pts staring at you from the page.

Red Corsair, I think you took Ailaros' comment the wrong way. I didn't understand him to say that HE thinks people who use Valkyries/Vendettas are "cocks", he said that this is what OTHERS will think of him if he brings them, and he doesn't want to wear that.

I share some of his thinking. The (apparent) overuse of Vendettas and Manticores is one of the reasons I refuse to use them, as well (although I am weakening on the Vendettas for aesthetic reasons and just so I can grav-insert storm troopers). I am probably not expressing myself well ... trying to think of an analogy ... well, I'm tired and going to bed, maybe tomorrow. But I think you're overreacting to Ailaros' comment and calling him stupid is not exactly being the better man.

To be fair, the main reason most people aren't taking vendettas is because they cost a rediculous $80 a piece (need the upgrade kit with all the lascannons). I don't care how good a unit is, right now I'm not spending $240 for some fast attack choices that will probably be nerfed in some way soon. Hence why I'm so interested in hellhounds, because those can be converted fairly cheaply. I believe this is one of Ailaros's main reasons, even if he hasn't stated it. I know he doesn't have many chimera hulls either, so that limits his vehicle choices. I can sympathize, as I'm in the same boat.

As for ideas pertinent to the list Ailaros, the big thing I'm noticing with this list, is while you are matching the numbers of Guardsmen that you are used to from a platoon oriented Foot IG list, you're running very low on support units for these guardsmen. Platoon IG was notable in that, while the guardsmen died faster, have lower BS, and less special weapons, they had enough points left over for tanks, artillery, and other support units to make them shine. Heck, you were taking almost 550pts worth of stormtroopers and still having little trouble buying tanks to augment your guardsmen. Which is the main problem I see with "duravets" styled force like what we're seeing here. You can still pump out the guardsmen, but you can't pump out the support units they need to truly fight the enemy. I'm not exactly sure yet how to surmount this obstacle, but the best idea might be to mix platoon and vets in a list. Using the PIS's exactly how you're used to as cheap scoring units to take hits and put down decent firepower, while your carapace vets provide hard points within your foot horde, designed to handle to big threats, concentrate firepower, and take the really important objectives or take out critical targets. This way you have a mix of cheap bodies and higher quality troops, and should still be able to afford your support units like tanks and whatnot. With 30 stormtroopers, you wouldn't need but 3 or 4 vet squads to help augment a couple of platoons, and that should get you plenty of guardsmen, firepower, mobility, and durability. Just something to think about.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
To be fair, the main reason most people aren't taking vendettas is because they cost a rediculous $80 a piece (need the upgrade kit with all the lascannons). I don't care how good a unit is, right now I'm not spending $240 for some fast attack choices that will probably be nerfed in some way soon. Hence why I'm so interested in hellhounds, because those can be converted fairly cheaply. I believe this is one of Ailaros's main reasons, even if he hasn't stated it. I know he doesn't have many chimera hulls either, so that limits his vehicle choices. I can sympathize, as I'm in the same boat.

As for ideas pertinent to the list Ailaros, the big thing I'm noticing with this list, is while you are matching the numbers of Guardsmen that you are used to from a platoon oriented Foot IG list, you're running very low on support units for these guardsmen. Platoon IG was notable in that, while the guardsmen died faster, have lower BS, and less special weapons, they had enough points left over for tanks, artillery, and other support units to make them shine. Heck, you were taking almost 550pts worth of stormtroopers and still having little trouble buying tanks to augment your guardsmen. Which is the main problem I see with "duravets" styled force like what we're seeing here. You can still pump out the guardsmen, but you can't pump out the support units they need to truly fight the enemy. I'm not exactly sure yet how to surmount this obstacle, but the best idea might be to mix platoon and vets in a list. Using the PIS's exactly how you're used to as cheap scoring units to take hits and put down decent firepower, while your carapace vets provide hard points within your foot horde, designed to handle to big threats, concentrate firepower, and take the really important objectives or take out critical targets. This way you have a mix of cheap bodies and higher quality troops, and should still be able to afford your support units like tanks and whatnot. With 30 stormtroopers, you wouldn't need but 3 or 4 vet squads to help augment a couple of platoons, and that should get you plenty of guardsmen, firepower, mobility, and durability. Just something to think about.

No idea where you buy your Valk kits from but where I get mine its $49.50. Then I simply traded for some of the twin linked predator lascannons or the land raider ones (honestly i dont know if there is a difference.) So in total I paid $150 for all three of my Vendettas.

I run a MSU foot guard as well. I have a Support platoon that sits back and babysits their heavy weapons. (Usually its an Autocannon/flamer squad) and 1-2 Assault platoons with no heavy weapons and either meltas or plasma. I also tend to have 3 leman russes in support and 2 Vendettas and a Puinisher Vulture.


Example
HQ: CCS: Lascannon, Regimental Standard, Camo Cloaks, Sniper 110ptd

Troops 785pts

1st Platoon
PCS: 4x Flamers
3x PIS with Meltaguns
2x PIS with Flamer and Lascannons

2nd Platoon
PCS: 4x Flamers
3x PIS with Plasmaguns
2x PIS with Flamer and Autocannons

Fast Attack 415 pts
Vendetta 130pts
Vendetta 130pts
Vulture with Twin Linked Punisher Cannon 155pts

Heavy Support 490pts
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Battle Tank
Leman Russ Executioner

Fort 80pts
ADL
Icarus Lascannon

Red Corsair wrote:I fail to recognize how using a strong unit in an aging codex makes someone a cock.

It doesn't.

What makes you a cock is being a cock. Cocks flock to vendettas like they do to needlessly expensive German cars, needlessly expensive designer sunglasses, and needlessly expensive haircuts.

I mean, you show up with a few vendettas at a vendetta convention, you get a...



"Sup, BRA! See you got tha 'dettes. High five, bra!"

If you haven't seen this kind of behavior, you're not looking closely enough. You don't have to be a douche to take a vendetta, but if you're a douche, you're taking vendettas.

Other people have, unfortunately, set the standard. The question is if I want to have myself associated with said other people.

Or to put it another way:

 NWansbutter wrote:
Red Corsair, I think you took Ailaros' comment the wrong way. I didn't understand him to say that HE thinks people who use Valkyries/Vendettas are "cocks", he said that this is what OTHERS will think of him if he brings them, and he doesn't want to wear that

This.

Red Corsair wrote:You know what wars sucked? Wars of attrition

... but that's foot guard. Even the codex itself says that that's how foot guard works. So does the rulebook.

In 5th ed, you could play foot guard as an attrition army and do okay (not phenomenally, but still really not that badly), now you can't. I guess you'd be happy with that, as you don't like the play style, but the question now becomes one of how to make an army that was designed to win by attrition win by other means?

MrMoustaffa wrote:you're running very low on support units for these guardsmen. Platoon IG was notable in that, while the guardsmen died faster, have lower BS, and less special weapons, they had enough points left over for tanks, artillery, and other support units to make them shine. Heck, you were taking almost 550pts worth of stormtroopers and still having little trouble buying tanks to augment your guardsmen. Which is the main problem I see with "duravets" styled force like what we're seeing here.

Right, there is something I'm trying to reclaim here, I suppose. In 5th ed, guard troops choices were good, and you just needed to drape a little support over them to fill in the cracks. I'm trying to reproduce that in some small way. I don't like the idea of having weak core units leaning heavily on support units to make "toy" heavy lists.

I'm actually not THAT stuck on my support options, though. I'm using stormies because they seem the best units, not because I'm trying to be all-infantry. Was there something that would be better support, I'd rather seriously consider taking it.

The problem, though, is that you never know what your support units should be unless you know what your core units are. That's been sort of the first few bricks I've been trying to understand to put back together to make a new proverbial wall of good guard footsmanship...

So, for example, this is the natural conclusion from this game:

CCS - fist, standard, lascannon
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris Psyker

10x stormies - 2x flamers
10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon,carapace
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace

ADL - icarus lascannon

The question is one of what can I add that still keeps a decently strong core, that will actually make the list better? One way I've been doing this is when I make a new list, I see if it would have done better or worse in all the games I've played up until now (in this case, in 6th edition), and see if it would have done better than my current list.

At the moment, the only thing I'm possibly considering is dropping a meltavet squad and a squad of stormies and replacing it with 3 squads of 2x hydras. I don't yet quite know if that will actually be better, though.

I am looking at it the situation just fine. Your argument is still ignorant and unjustifiable. All you have proven is that you care more about image then strategy.

If someone is a dick, then they are a dick. Playing a certain army or unit type isn't going to matter. If you are afraid of being a dick it has nothing to do with your unit types and everything to do with your attitude.

I think you should look closer and you will see that the gaming community by in large is not made up of douches. I have never heard of such an idiotic concern. Who n earth would label someone as a cock immediately because they brought a particular unit? If this is your perception then I have to say your last few games must have been miserable. You played what, three different cocks?

Don't use a unit because you hate the model, the rules, the money.... Those I can understand, but because of your biased perception of what someone might think? Fine, but that is a sad approach to the game.

Red Corsair wrote:I am looking at it the situation just fine. Your argument is still ignorant and unjustifiable. All you have proven is that you care more about image then strategy.

That's a pretty sweeping statement to extrapolate from a very small thing. If I cared more about style than strategy, I'd play eldar.

What you're seeing here is someone who, for the sake of argument, cares 99% about strategy and 1% about style, and you've stumbled upon that 1% and are making it seem as if I care 10% about strategy and 90% about style. It's just not true.

Red Corsair wrote:Who on earth would label someone as a cock immediately because they brought a particular unit?

No one calls the necron flying circus cheese. Everybody is glad to see draigo across the field from them, or grey knights in general, actually. Fzorgle refers to an italian pastry, not a CSM HQ setup. Leafblower is nothing more than a tool you can pick up at Home Depot. Mephiston is a completely cheeseless addition to any well-balanced BA list.

Need I really continue? Certain things develop a bad reputation. By buying into the unit, you're buying into the reputation. There's no way around it.

Red Corsair wrote:Don't use a unit because you hate the model, the rules, the money.... Those I can understand, but because of your biased perception of what someone might think? Fine, but that is a sad approach to the game.

Firstly, it's a social game. Social implies that at some point you give any consideration to the people around you.

Secondly, so what? It's an aesthetic choice. Would it be any better if I said that I don't want to take vendettas because I just don't want to take vendettas? What does the particular reason matter if I'm already being arbitrary?

 Red Corsair wrote:
I am looking at it the situation just fine. Your argument is still ignorant and unjustifiable. All you have proven is that you care more about image then strategy.

Let's be real here, 40k is not an amazing strategy game. It is, in fact, an 'image' game, so if someone wants to do what they want for their own reasons, that's fine. Try to give advice within the parameters people ask, or at least discuss without criticizing someone's parameters. Ailaros proved, I think, that you could do guard in a different way in 5th than the cookie-cutter chimera/vendetta spam that you saw in the tournament scene and still have success, though massive foot lists don't usually see a lot of play in timed tournaments.

Also, your advice about Chimeras is off base. One, two, even three Chimeras isn't enough. They're still a bit flimsy and will probably get instagibbed in a vaccuum, the way Chimeras work is by being cheap and numerous, overwhelming the anti-tank assets of an enemy and making all their bolters and stuff useless. Once you get to that, though, I think that goes against what Ailaros is trying to do.

 Ailaros wrote:

At the moment, the only thing I'm possibly considering is dropping a meltavet squad and a squad of stormies and replacing it with 3 squads of 2x hydras. I don't yet quite know if that will actually be better, though.

I think that those Hydras might be a very good idea imo. I mean thats 12 autocannon shots with special anti-flyer rules, any player who brings aircraft out in the open against 6 hydras will immediately have them blown out of the sky. And even if you dont face flyers you still have 18 heavy bolter shots in addition to the BS1 twin linked autocannons primed at your enemy.

And since players in your FLGS seem to tailor their lists against you, once seeing the hydras they will drop any notions of aircraft spam in their lists.

By the way, why would people think you are a cock you give so much helpful advice on dakka dakka and i would imagine any normal A**hole to be reluctant to spend so much time on battle reports and writing the fluff.

@MrMoustaffa you can convert Valkries into Vendettas by using spare lascannons from HWS sets i think there might be some articles out there that will be able to help you, i havent attempted it myself due to the price of the Valk.

Panzeh wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
I am looking at it the situation just fine. Your argument is still ignorant and unjustifiable. All you have proven is that you care more about image then strategy.

Let's be real here, 40k is not an amazing strategy game. It is, in fact, an 'image' game, so if someone wants to do what they want for their own reasons, that's fine. Try to give advice within the parameters people ask, or at least discuss without criticizing someone's parameters. Ailaros proved, I think, that you could do guard in a different way in 5th than the cookie-cutter chimera/vendetta spam that you saw in the tournament scene and still have success, though massive foot lists don't usually see a lot of play in timed tournaments.

Also, your advice about Chimeras is off base. One, two, even three Chimeras isn't enough. They're still a bit flimsy and will probably get instagibbed in a vaccuum, the way Chimeras work is by being cheap and numerous, overwhelming the anti-tank assets of an enemy and making all their bolters and stuff useless. Once you get to that, though, I think that goes against what Ailaros is trying to do.

I can be real, in fact I was being analytical and playing the exercise fine until that insanely stupid comment was made. I expected a bigger person to redact their statement not compound it. So if it now appears to be 90% the issue it;s not my fault. I merely suggested a stupid statement that stereotypes players was stupid and unnecessary. Calling the game an image game is fine for you, but make no mistake here, we all play for different reasons and if you have no strategy and are buying into an "image" then that your motivation but it is not mine.

That makes no sense. If, by Alairos own logic, upgrades are the single easiest way to make a unit moire efficient and potent, then how could even one chimera be bad? Your logic is flawed here. Many chimera are always awesome but that doesn't make one or two and definitely three bad. I will take the one or two any day over none because it is an insane addition to a pcs or ccs. You are applying the vacuum here not me, for it's price there is no better purchase an infantry unit can make.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:


No one calls the necron flying circus cheese. Everybody is glad to see draigo across the field from them, or grey knights in general, actually. Fzorgle refers to an italian pastry, not a CSM HQ setup. Leafblower is nothing more than a tool you can pick up at Home Depot. Mephiston is a completely cheeseless addition to any well-balanced BA list.

Need I really continue? Certain things develop a bad reputation. By buying into the unit, you're buying into the reputation. There's no way around it.

Red Corsair wrote:Don't use a unit because you hate the model, the rules, the money.... Those I can understand, but because of your biased perception of what someone might think? Fine, but that is a sad approach to the game.

Firstly, it's a social game. Social implies that at some point you give any consideration to the people around you.

Secondly, so what? It's an aesthetic choice. Would it be any better if I said that I don't want to take vendettas because I just don't want to take vendettas? What does the particular reason matter if I'm already being arbitrary?

SO then according to you everyone should avoid 2-3 armies and 3-6 units in each book at least or they will be labled? I don't by it, in fact I have always thought the whiners we the crowd with the poor image.

Don't play it for what ever reason you want, but don't expect an immature opinion directed toward other play styles to go unchecked.

Hi there Ailaros,

Thumbs up for a great series of battle reports!

I think the main flaw of your suggested 1850 pts army is that at you have only 7 long range weapons in an army that is in essence static. There is a great risk that your opponent will dictate terms for the games with either superior long range fire power (forcing you to move or die) or superior mobility (making sure he fights part of your army with a substantially larger part of his) or both. But then again maybe that's just the curse of 6th ed foot guard....

Triple plasma/melta vets are great if they get to shoot at short range at a preferred target and I think they are excellent candidates for a chimera or vendetta ride. However at 24"+ range they do not peform significantly better than a 65 pts PiS. How do you plan on getting the veterans in a position to do what they do best with this army?

Red Corsair wrote:So if it now appears to be 90% the issue it;s not my fault.

Well...

Ailaros wrote:What you're seeing here is someone who, for the sake of argument, cares 99% about strategy and 1% about style, and you've stumbled upon that 1% and are making it seem as if I care 10% about strategy and 90% about style. It's just not true.

Anyways,

Red Corsair wrote: If, by Alairos own logic, upgrades are the single easiest way to make a unit moire efficient and potent, then how could even one chimera be bad? Your logic is flawed here. Many chimera are always awesome but that doesn't make one or two and definitely three bad.

I think you might misunderstand that maxim a bit. I said WEAPON upgrades are the most efficient, because you get more killing power without having to pay for more carriers. Buying a chimera does get you more guns, but it also costs more, because you have to pay for a new unit. Getting 2 heavy bolters for 55 points isn't as efficient as giving 5 heavy bolter weapon upgrades to 5 squads that don't have heavy weapons for the same price.

You're right, though, logic does not dictate that failing to spam makes chimeras individually bad, it's a matter for reason, rather than logic. Guard stuff is flimsy, and so needs redundancy to make sure it actually accomplishes the mission it was taken for. Having one of something is, in fact, not as good at having two or three of something. At least not in 40k, and ESPECIALLY not with guard.

Red Corsair wrote:SO then according to you everyone should avoid 2-3 armies and 3-6 units in each book at least or they will be labled? I don't by it, in fact I have always thought the whiners we the crowd with the poor image.

To be fair, I never said everyone.

Secondly, I fail to see the distinction between a single group of people labeled whiners over there and a discreet group of cool people over here. Because of this, things get more or less a single reputation, rather than two or three separate ones.

Look, I understand the point of being level-headed and only working with things on the abstractest of levels. Autism makes that easy, if not compulsory. What I'm trying to do, though, is to be more comprehensive with my approach to 40k here.

40k, it turns out, isn't a game that pits two players' skill against each other in a complex system that can be reduced to absolute principles. I used to really believe this. It turns out, though, it really IS a game of putting painted stuff on display and rolling dice while drinking a proverbial beer. The temptation to take it seriously is still too great for me, what with this all being the only outlet for my endlessly stymied sense of professional ethic, but that doesn't mean that I can't try to avoid the pure, abstract, unintentionally sociopathic trap that people who take 40k seriously fall into really, really quickly.

Because 40k IS a social game. If you take the others players at your FLGS into consideration when you decide whether to bathe before you play or not, or whether you are going to be polite or not, or any number of other cues regarding towards your behavior, why is it suddenly a big shock to follow this same model, even some tiny bit, with regards to the behavior of list building?

I don't like following crowds, and I don't like groupthink, and I don't like decisions made by peer pressure, etc. etc. I like keeping things rational and looking at the numbers to have the purity and flexibility to come up with new things others missed. In this case, though, in order to best fulfill this desire, I've got to start by just doing the opposite of the crowd. Yes, you could argue that it's still a form of peer pressure (or is it? Perhaps I don't like mainstream because liking mainstream is too mainstream, because hating mainstream was getting too mainstream), but if I just fold now and follow the herd, then the other ways for guard to handle fliers will never be found, and we'll all be stuck with cookie cutter guard lists again.

Preventing that is nearly as important as horribly beating face in my games. Two people with netlists showing up, using the same tactics, and just rolling dice at each other feels soulless, and really against the entire point of having a game with as many options as 40k.

dakka farta wrote:I think that those Hydras might be a very good idea imo. I mean thats 12 autocannon shots with special anti-flyer rules, any player who brings aircraft out in the open against 6 hydras will immediately have

So...

CCS - fist, standard, medic, missile launcher
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris Psyker

10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon,carapace
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace

2x Hydras
2x Hydras

ADL - icarus lascannon

?

zoat wrote: There is a great risk that your opponent will dictate terms for the games with either superior long range fire power (forcing you to move or die) or superior mobility (making sure he fights part of your army with a substantially larger part of his) or both. But then again maybe that's just the curse of 6th ed foot guard....

It is, rather. I'm never going to be able to catch storm ravens or venoms or doomsday arks if my opponent doesnt' want me to get in range with them. Given just how fast everything dies in 40k, you've got to be a little more careful with suicide attacks.

But it's still the problem with foot guard, more or less exactly as you describe it. How do you get guns on target when everything dies so fast? With foot guard, the short answer is HWSs, but they die SO fast, and have a bunch of other problems. As you can see, one way I've been liking is to take stormies that stay (more or less) completely safe off the board, and can alpha strike without being shot at first.

That really is the question of the moment, though. Just how do you support foot guard?

zoat wrote: How do you plan on getting the veterans in a position to do what they do best with this army?

100 guys with 4+ armor and a 4+ cover ADL placed halfway up the board.

 Ailaros wrote:

dakka farta wrote:I think that those Hydras might be a very good idea imo. I mean thats 12 autocannon shots with special anti-flyer rules, any player who brings aircraft out in the open against 6 hydras will immediately have

So...

CCS - fist, standard, medic, missile launcher
Priest - eviscerator

Primaris Psyker

10x stormies - 2x meltas
10x stormies - 2x meltas

Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon,carapace
Vets - 3x plasma, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace
Vets - 3x melta, lascannon, carapace

2x Hydras
2x Hydras

ADL - icarus lascannon

?

I'm guessing that you didn't have the points to fill another two more hydras into the list, but that still 8 Autocannon shots The list looks more supported and much more balanced now, Lascannons and Meltas to engage Infantry and ground vehicles while the Hydras light up the sky ridding you of flyers, skimmers etc. It seems to solve one of your problems in this battle report, the fact that flyers can't shoot over the aegis due to the swathes of hydra fire makes your infantry a lot more durable against fire.

I'd cut the two melta stormtrooper squads down to 5 men each, freeing up 160 points, then plough that into a third squad. Flamer squad (which have worked so well for you in the past), or something? That 160 points would pay for a 9 man squad with 2 flamers. Overall, more bang for your buck if you ask me.

There's an awful lot of Vendetta griping going on. Didn't he say at some point that he already feels he can deal with fliers with what he has and it was the dealing with everything else that was an issue?

Ailaros wrote:The thing is, though, I'm actually not convinced that you need to have fliers, either to take out other fliers or in general.

I mean, I've played 3 games with fliers already. In the first game, I took down 4 of 12 HP of fliers. In the second game, I took down 3 of the 6 HP of fliers my opponent took. In this game I stripped off 10 of the 12 HP worth of fliers my opponent brought. I mean, with just thinking things through a little bit, I've gotten it to the point where I can nearly handle fliers with nothing but infantry, much less needing to go to the far end of taking vendettas for anti-air.

I really don't see the situation against fliers as being so hopeless that their only recourse is a single unit which will be required to win any games with guard.

Guess he did.

I don't remember costs off the top of my head, but camo netting might be a real boon to Hydras if you go that route. Even if flyers come on and get free shots at them, you've got a 3 l+ cover with the Aegis.

Here's another questionable use of points: Hunter-Killers on the Hydras. They won't be shooting at aircraft on turn one. The HKs give them something to do and help your alpha strike.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
There's an awful lot of Vendetta griping going on. Didn't he say at some point that he already feels he can deal with fliers with what he has and it was the dealing with everything else that was an issue?

Ailaros wrote:The thing is, though, I'm actually not convinced that you need to have fliers, either to take out other fliers or in general.

I mean, I've played 3 games with fliers already. In the first game, I took down 4 of 12 HP of fliers. In the second game, I took down 3 of the 6 HP of fliers my opponent took. In this game I stripped off 10 of the 12 HP worth of fliers my opponent brought. I mean, with just thinking things through a little bit, I've gotten it to the point where I can nearly handle fliers with nothing but infantry, much less needing to go to the far end of taking vendettas for anti-air.

I really don't see the situation against fliers as being so hopeless that their only recourse is a single unit which will be required to win any games with guard.

Guess he did.

Your right he did, and I never said other wise. I just am not a fan of someone having to put down one play style to justify their own. But I will digress, I don't like arguing in game and I surely don't online. I just expect a little maturity and responsibility from people I am in a discussion with. If he wants to list reasons why he doesn't want to field something he can doo it without labeling others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:

Red Corsair wrote:So if it now appears to be 90% the issue it;s not my fault.

Well...

Ailaros wrote:What you're seeing here is someone who, for the sake of argument, cares 99% about strategy and 1% about style, and you've stumbled upon that 1% and are making it seem as if I care 10% about strategy and 90% about style. It's just not true.

Anyways,

Way to miss the point. I don't are how much you claim, your actions and more importantly words are demonstrating otherwise. Besides how irritating it is that you actually used a percentage to gauge a subjective issue.

Here's another thought for your list, Alairos. Now that you've got an ADL, I'm not sure you need to pay for Carapace Armor on the Troops that you've got "staying home". There are surely AP5 weapons that ignore cover, but most of them are basic flamers. The ones that kill at range are almost all AP4, by my memory. This means you could rely on the Aegis for home defense, and use Carapace for offense. This would at least be a 90 point savings (Carapace on your Meltas, nothing on your Plasmas). Alternatively, you could give your plasmas behind the line Forward Sentries instead. This would give them a 3+ cover save behind the line, or a 4+ in other terrain.

My preferred option, though, would be to swap out the plasma vets for regular guardsmen. 2 Plasma Vet Grenadier squads with LCS is 330 points, throw in the 3 LCs on the melta vets for another 60 points. This could get you a platoon with a PCS and 4 PISs, all with LCs, and PGs on the PISs. It more than doubles the number of bodies (vs the two plasma vets squads), with almost no loss of resilience per model, because most enemies that shoot at these Guardsmen will be shooting at them in cover. They don't have to march into fire, so they can rely on cover. The BS on your lascannons will be lower, but you'll probably be hitting with them more in the long term, because you won't be moving them when your melta vet squads move.

Red Corsair wrote:I just am not a fan of someone having to put down one play style to justify their own. But I will digress, I don't like arguing in game and I surely don't online. I just expect a little maturity and responsibility from people I am in a discussion with. If he wants to list reasons why he doesn't want to field something he can do it without labeling others. I don't are how much you claim, your actions and more importantly words are demonstrating otherwise.

As I've made abundantly clear, I don't have problems against play styles, I have a problem with the attitude that guard need vendettas to survive, or that any one unit in the codex is so awesome that it's an auto-include, or that because a unit is good, it's therefore the solution to all problems, or because any one person thinks that some particular unit is cool, that other people must take it too.

I've spent my entire 40k career thinking abstractly and talking about things strategically, trying to be helpful, and creative, and useful to guard commanders. I've tried to explain this abberant issue in particular to you with well-reasoned argument in multiple different ways. Instead of engaging with me in dialogue AT ALL, you're instead ignoring me and degenerating to the point of just calling me immature over and over again.

Nothing more can be said to one who does not listen.

Biophysical wrote:I don't remember costs off the top of my head, but camo netting might be a real boon to Hydras if you go that route. Even if flyers come on and get free shots at them, you've got a 3 l+ cover with the Aegis.

But would it?

The big problem here is that you can't just be behind a piece of terrain, it still has to actually obscure 25% of the model. Given that fliers are up 6" off the table, it's going to be basically impossible to hide a vehicle behind anything other than a 2 or 3-floor piece of terrain (and even then, this can kind of be flown around). Against ground threats, sure, the ADL would be rather useful, but not against fliers in this case, which, unfortunately, is the biggest threat to them.

And it costs 20 points a pop, which isn't quite cheap enough for me to feel real great about them.

Biophysical wrote:Here's another questionable use of points: Hunter-Killers on the Hydras. They won't be shooting at aircraft on turn one. The HKs give them something to do and help your alpha strike.

I might were it not for the fact that skyfire applies to the unit, not the weapons. At BS3, it's already questionable, but 10 points for a single BS1 shot...

flonky wrote:
I'd cut the two melta stormtrooper squads down to 5 men each, freeing up 160 points, then plough that into a third squad. Flamer squad (which have worked so well for you in the past), or something? That 160 points would pay for a 9 man squad with 2 flamers. Overall, more bang for your buck if you ask me.

So, the problem with 5x stormie squads is that they're suicide squads and nothing more. If I wanted something that could shoot a little and then die, I might as well drop them altogether to pack my HS slots.

What I'm trying to do with the stormies is to actually have some field presence upfield. They're not just a firepower unit, they're a denial unit. They contest objectives. They claim linebreaker,. They provide a real threat that my opponent has to expend more than passing fire against to eliminate. None of this would be possible with a suicide stormie squad.

dakka farta wrote:The list looks more supported and much more balanced now, Lascannons and Meltas to engage Infantry and ground vehicles while the Hydras light up the sky ridding you of flyers, skimmers etc. It seems to solve one of your problems in this battle report, the fact that flyers can't shoot over the aegis due to the swathes of hydra fire makes your infantry a lot more durable against fire.

I've been mulling over this a bit more. One of the things I did was compare my sequitur list with the above. The question was could my non-hydra list survive better against a list that contained no fliers than a non-hydra list could that contained them?

By that standard, the hydra list fared more poorly. I can almost handle fliers without hydras, but throwing out a lot of stormies and dudes in general would hurt more, I think.

Although, it did rekindle the ogryn idea, as ogryn can take down fliers with volume of fire AND still be beefy at the same time. I figured it wouldn't be long before I put them back in my list, but I didn't think that it might be quite this short.

Excellent report Ailaros. Really enjoyed the read.

How do you feel about forgeworld stuff?

Yay! Ogryn are coming back! Hand-held flak canons! It does hurt to lose the third Storm squad, though.

Biophysical wrote:
Here's another thought for your list, Alairos. Now that you've got an ADL, I'm not sure you need to pay for Carapace Armor on the Troops that you've got "staying home". There are surely AP5 weapons that ignore cover, but most of them are basic flamers. The ones that kill at range are almost all AP4, by my memory. This means you could rely on the Aegis for home defense, and use Carapace for offense. This would at least be a 90 point savings (Carapace on your Meltas, nothing on your Plasmas). Alternatively, you could give your plasmas behind the line Forward Sentries instead. This would give them a 3+ cover save behind the line, or a 4+ in other terrain.

That's a pretty reasonable idea. You could always have at least one squad fully contained by an ADL save (even to fliers) and 2 from most angles. 2 squads of Vets without Carapace, but with ADL is actually a 10 point savings.

As to the "use 5 man Stormies ideas": an army needs to contain Marbo before it considers 5 man Stormtrooper squads since he's both better and cheaper at what they can do.

Just to plug my idea from a couple threads ago, here's a sample army list with Ogryn:

HQ: 80
-Melchior with Power Fist, Standard
Elites: 620
-10 Storms w/ 2 Meltaguns
-10 Storms w/ 2 Meltaguns
-6 Ogryn

Troops: 810

Veterans w/ Meltaguns, Grenadiers
Veterans w/ Meltaguns, Grenadiers
PCS, Lascannon
PIS, PG/LC
PIS, PG/LC
PIS, PG/LC
PIS, PG/LC
PIS, PG/LC
HWS, ACs

Allies: 245
-"Battle Tested" Sanario: Confessor w/ Eviscerator
-"Special Kingsguard": 10 Sisters, w/2 Meltaguns

Fortifications: 85
ADL + Icarus

Sanario goes with the Ogryn, giving them re-rolls and a fistfull of Eviscerator attacks. Melchior manages the gun line behind the Aegis line, the Vets and Sisters advance with meltas to get objectives and blow stuff up on its way to your firebase. There's plenty of flexibility if you wanted to drop the AC squad or one of the PISs to fit in the Primaris Psyker.

Still plenty of models, still a few points leftover for whatever you want.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:How do you feel about forgeworld stuff?

Wanting to include an interesting unit? Sure. Needing to take forgeworld because the guard codex can't cut it? Never.

Really, the problem is that getting into forgeworld has a barrier to entry. I've got to buy more rulebooks, new models, etc. I'm still working my way through building codex units, so I kind of only want to bother if there's something particular I want to include for fluff reasons.

Actually, it's for the exact same reason I'm not including allies, come to think of it.

Biophysical wrote:Yay! Ogryn are coming back! Hand-held flak canons! It does hurt to lose the third Storm squad, though.

... yeah.

I don't know, it seems like my list is starting to actually congeal right now, and am finding it more difficult to put new stuff in as my list itself gets better. I do feel more comfortable about losing a stormie squad and the ADL for some ogryn than losing a stormie squad and a vet squad for a couple of hydras. It all seems so close, though. It's like, there are 4 nearly identical versions of the list, and I just don't know which one is better.

Perhaps time, thought, and time on field will help.

Actually, now that I think about it some more, it's actually on a continuum. hydras->exterminators->ogryn->all foot. I want to play the one on the right, but fliers are pushing me to the left. Perhaps the better against fliers I can get, the further to the right I'll be able to scoot...

DarknessEternal wrote:As to the "use 5 man Stormies ideas": an army needs to contain Marbo before it considers 5 man Stormtrooper squads since he's both better and cheaper at what they can do.

Oh, right. And this.

The 4 Hydras will eliminate your problems with fliers totally, they are flak tanks by profession and have 72" range they will get the first shot off, After establishing your foothold in AA you can expand into other options which would add to your killing power against targets on the ground. Plus if you face a non flier army you can just make a quick calculation to swap the hydras for ogryn.