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One naked Nob Biker costs around 5 Wyches. Why do you think a unit of Wyches should stand any chance against a unit of Nob Bikers?

You're the one expecting Wyches to tarpit deathstars.

Nob Bikers are such a deathstar, and Wyches crumple against them.

As for other death stars with 2+ saves, well. There's assault terminators of every shape and form in every marine codex, honor guard, sanguinary guard, artificer armored captains...

Damn, know what? Wyches don't just stand a chance against deathstars. They donn't stand a chance against anything with a 2+ save. Doesn't matter how many points you pour into such a unit.

@ShadarLogoth

Thanks for the invaluable strategem. But you see, the problem isn't that we've never heard of these mystical FNP or PGL, it's what each unit can do for their cost. Sure enough, with BS1, 6+ cover then 5+ FNP{(assuming no S6+ shots land during that overwatch), you should be able to say, proudly, that your wyches are immune to overwatch, but the problem is, how many of these FNP PGL wyches can you run, and how good are they really? They run on S3, unless you throw another PT in somewhere'(for FC), then roll on 1 of the really good drugs, your main damage source in your wych unit IS your agoniser hekatrix, who would then be challenged and now unable to hurt the core unit. And how much point and slot have you spent on the survival of a subpar assault unit? On the other hand, if you run them in the disposable size of 5 HWG wyches, you now have extra points to spare to bring in our better assault options, while you don't have to hesitate in throwing them wyches into a vehicle and watching them die after they've done their deed, because really, you don't need more than 8 wyches to take down a HP4 moving vehicle... Unless you're fighting a walker army or something, but then, you should have other AT shootings before that as well... So 5 wyches is the most ideal number for HWG purpose.

So as I've said in my earlier post, it's not that wyches are impossibly bad, there is nothing stopping them from assaulting, but they can't do it as effectively(see: Ascalam and Lokas' posts) as they could before, and with their HWG side shining so very bright, you've gotta ask yourself: Do you want to bring more subpar wyches in just so you have a few squads for assault, and a few squads for tank hunting? Or do you want to just run cheap disposable wych unit that is already making back its points and more(epic tankhunter at the size of 5 and another venom for you), then use the extra points and slots to get better units on the table? The answer is obvious if you're, defiantly, running wych cults though.

And I'm 1 of those defiant DE who still intend to run wyches for assault purpose as well! I just won't be delusional enough to say they're anywhere as good as they were in 5th ed, and definitely not gonna say they can hold down a deathstar. I'm just running them as low priority unit who, hopefully, can get to the squishy shooting units in the back and murder them/tie them up.

Actually, 5 wyches will, on average, strip 4 hull points a turn.

A 'nade in the shooting phase will strip strip a hull point 55% of the time, and 5 wyches with haywires will do 2-3 hull points worth of damage in the assault phase (2.77~).

So it's not all that uncommon to see 5 wyches mulch a landraider in a single round. AV 12+ is usually what I use my Wyches for anyways, dark lances can reliably handle AV 10 and 11 but struggle (unless spammed ad nauseum) against AV 12. Besides, if wyches assault the transports, they are most likely going to get shot/assaulted by its contents unless you have a couple wych units working in unison to attack vehicles and prevent disembarkation. Which is always ideal, I do this every chance I get and so should you, but sometimes it's more important to assault more targets than to really kill the hell out of one.

I'm quite satisfied with my <80 point disposable Wyches. They rarely fail to make their points back. One Predator, one Land Raider, one Leman Russ and they've more than earned their keep. They can handle their own against severely depleted squads, and MSU squads. Gone are the days of Wyches being a frightening predator, capable of engaging and winning against near any target provided certain terms were met. Now they're more of a scavenger, a vulture unit that picks off the weak and infirm.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Lokas wrote:


Against paladins, against nob bikers, against a grotstar, I can all but guarantee that the wyches will lose by more than one wound. A 4++ only saves half their wounds, and death stars are death stars because they can pour on the wounds. Wyches have no way of dealing with 2+ saves, they have no way of negating Feel No Pain, they can't even get a leadership test reroll without you parking a very fragile, very easily eliminated vehicle within 6 inches of the combat. Wyches are not an effective tarpit, they used to be because they could frequently tie combat by denying enemies their saves and using our (at the time) superior mobility to ensure the charge. Nowadays, charge distance is random, you move less before you disembark, you can't run and assault, Dark Eldar cannot ensure the charge like they used to. We cannot tie combat like we used to. They are not an effective tarpit anymore. They are a speedbump to give your opponent's deathstar a free few inches of movement in the assault phase.

Wyches are a disposable anti-tank unit that can only be counted on to strip hull points and prey on severely weakened and depleted infantry squads.

Hmmm. A few things. The only deathstar you listed with a 2+ are Paladins, the Wyches combat prowess against the other two has only increased, as FNP has gotten worse, sure the Agonizer doesn't ignore it, but every single other attack in the unit is now more deadly. The Agonizer isn't, and never was, the end all and be all of the wyches damage capabilities.

Also, the FNP change is a clear "upgrade" against deathstars as they tend to have power weapons, and the attacks with double strength always were double strength.

Don't want to derail, but people just need to take a closer look on how they are running them. The 5th edition design is no longer valid I would agree, but the AT 5 chicks with haywire in a Venom certainly isn't the only viable build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for those who haven't gotten it yet, if you're still worried about overwatch, PGL+FNP. Get it, learn it, use it.

I have read a few of your posts on DE before ShadarLogoth and disagreed with a fair few of them, but in this I completely agree. I ranted and raved with the changes to assaults + disembarkations with 6th, as in 5th 3 big wych units were the core of my force. Now, its 2 x 8 wyches. They don't always survive til the end of every game, and yes as the OP pointed out if their Raider gets shot down they're in trouble, but wyches are still a viable CC unit for tarpiting and picking of small or mauled squads after shooting. Units with lots of template-based weapons will mess with them with overwatch + divination shenanigans is annoying (i take a RofWarding Farseer ally to stop this) but I have no problems with them, and 8 haywires > 5 when you really need something taken out, plus the Haemo liquifier boat still works just as well to deliver then fly about melting stuff if it survives. As always - LOS blocking terrain is any Wych players friend, and enhanced aethersails + flat out are awesome at hopping from LOS block to LOS block until your ready.

This may not be popular, but with the agoniser nerf - take a venom blade on Hekas for 5pts. Much better against TEQ, which, lets face it is a lot more prevalent. They still have to pass those 2+ wounds it spits out

Kremlin wrote:

In 5th edition if an open-topped vehicle exploded it was a str3 hit to any passengers, now its always str4.

I don't mean to sound like a douche, but where is that written exactly? Page # and book would be appreciated... thanks lads 'n' lasses!

Ork Codex, P41. "Kaboom!" paragraph. Apply the "Codex-specific rule overrides BRB" rule.

Additionally, when a Trukk is wrecked, the occupants that spill out do not need to take a Pinning test [BRB P80 "Effect of damage on passengers"] is overridden by Ork codex P41 "...roll on the Ramshackle table below and apply the result instead of the usual effects". Note that "Kerrunch!" says the occupants must disembark and then the Trukk is wrecked. This overrides the Wrecked result from BRB section mentioned above.