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In 5th edition if an open-topped vehicle exploded it was a str3 hit to any passengers, now its always str4.
So, a squad of 20 boyz in a battle wagon is gonna take 10 wounds on average...with a 6+ save...ouch.

I think that you could mitigate this somewhat by taking a cheap nob with only eavy armour in the squad and
allocating all wounds to him until he dies (as per the mixed armour wound allocation rules). This way the nob
should soak 3-4 wounds on average and keep your boyz combat effective for longer.

I'm planning on using this with shoota boyz in a wagon, whose job is to dakka stuff and assualt any rear armour 10 vehicles.
i.e. they shouldn't need a Klaw.

Similarly you could do this with Dark Eldar if you have 9 Wyches and Haemonculus.
Take a Haemy with no upgrades and allocate all unsaved wounds to him after an explosion.

In fact, my German codex says that the wounds are handled in the same ways as in the shooting phase.
So the poor Nob is going to die first.

 Mega Armoured Northener wrote:
In 5th edition if an open-topped vehicle exploded it was a str3 hit to any passengers, now its always str4.
So, a squad of 20 boyz in a battle wagon is gonna take 10 wounds on average...with a 6+ save...ouch.

I think that you could mitigate this somewhat by taking a cheap nob with only eavy armour in the squad and
allocating all wounds to him until he dies (as per the mixed armour wound allocation rules). This way the nob
should soak 3-4 wounds on average and keep your boyz combat effective for longer.

I'm planning on using this with shoota boyz in a wagon, whose job is to dakka stuff and assualt any rear armour 10 vehicles.
i.e. they shouldn't need a Klaw.

Similarly you could do this with Dark Eldar if you have 9 Wyches and Haemonculus.
Take a Haemy with no upgrades and allocate all unsaved wounds to him after an explosion.

you gain nothing from the haemoculus though. You use majority T to wound, for the wyches that is toughness 3 so you get 7 wounds. Then the haemoculus has the same Tshirt save as the wyches, 6+. So do you want to wound your 50 point haemi or your 10 point wych?

 Exergy wrote:

you gain nothing from the haemoculus though. You use majority T to wound, for the wyches that is toughness 3 so you get 7 wounds. Then the haemoculus has the same Tshirt save as the wyches, 6+. So do you want to wound your 50 point haemi or your 10 point wych?

You gained Feel No Pain. And also, the answer is the Haemonculus. Even at 5x the cost, after he's given out Feel No Pain, you don't care about him at all and will make him die first if you can. It saves 2 Wyches, Haemonculi are not Fleet.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

you gain nothing from the haemoculus though. You use majority T to wound, for the wyches that is toughness 3 so you get 7 wounds. Then the haemoculus has the same Tshirt save as the wyches, 6+. So do you want to wound your 50 point haemi or your 10 point wych?

You gained Feel No Pain. And also, the answer is the Haemonculus. Even at 5x the cost, after he's given out Feel No Pain, you don't care about him at all and will make him die first if you can. It saves 2 Wyches, Haemonculi are not Fleet.

In fact, it doesn't matter if the Haemie dies. He gave the pain token to the Wyches and would be a liablity anyway as he hasn't FoF.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

you gain nothing from the haemoculus though. You use majority T to wound, for the wyches that is toughness 3 so you get 7 wounds. Then the haemoculus has the same Tshirt save as the wyches, 6+. So do you want to wound your 50 point haemi or your 10 point wych?

You gained Feel No Pain. And also, the answer is the Haemonculus. Even at 5x the cost, after he's given out Feel No Pain, you don't care about him at all and will make him die first if you can. It saves 2 Wyches, Haemonculi are not Fleet.

In fact, it doesn't matter if the Haemie dies. He gave the pain token to the Wyches and would be a liablity anyway as he hasn't FoF.

he doesnt HAVE to stay with the wyches, so he doesnt slow them down without fleet. The pain token is not worth 50 points and an HQ slot. + if he dies your opponent gets a VP.

I think this is a good idea.

But on the DE's side of thing, 10 S4 hits mean 6.67 wounds, so the haemy will be able to absorb about 2 wounds minimum, 3-4 if we're lucky, so you'd still have to put 4.67 wounds on the 9 wyches, meaning they'd be drop to around 6-7 after all the saves are done. Factor in that they're in the open, overwatch and (I don't know the current consensus) unable to assault on their coming turn, that unit is as good as dead. Which means, you've just paid 50+ points on a dying unit, when that could've been used to buy... I don't know, sniper wracks or something more useful.

And, DE who run wyches for assault purposes will most likely run the main blob(s) with haemy(ies) anyway... But I'll surely keep that in mind when my vehicle-boarded HQ assault unit get blew up, so thanks, OP.

All you can really do for the orks is stay within KFF range. a 5+ cover shave should save 3 or 4 orks which should keep you in the fearless range.

a bit expensive:
take a unit of 'ard boys in a wagon for a 4+ save.

Its how many points???!!!!
Take the mad dok and give all your orks a 5+ invuln.

a cheaper way is to fill a wagon up with grots, 19 grots and runtherder Not as good for hunting tanks, but not as many points invested for a mobile shooting platform. Use this wagon for def rollin and some big shoota shots, then if blows up the grots can run for an objective.

Baronyu wrote:
I think this is a good idea.

But on the DE's side of thing, 10 S4 hits mean 6.67 wounds, so the haemy will be able to absorb about 2 wounds minimum, 3-4 if we're lucky, so you'd still have to put 4.67 wounds on the 9 wyches, meaning they'd be drop to around 6-7 after all the saves are done. Factor in that they're in the open, overwatch and (I don't know the current consensus) unable to assault on their coming turn, that unit is as good as dead. Which means, you've just paid 50+ points on a dying unit, when that could've been used to buy... I don't know, sniper wracks or something more useful.

And, DE who run wyches for assault purposes will most likely run the main blob(s) with haemy(ies) anyway... But I'll surely keep that in mind when my vehicle-boarded HQ assault unit get blew up, so thanks, OP.

yeah DE assault is dead. Overwatch, the assault range nerf, agonizers to AP3, FNP nerf and vehicle explosion buff all mean that setting up an army to run across the field for assault is not really a good plan anymore.
Other than small haywire squads for vehicles, wyches are good as dead.

I didn't think you could take cover saves from an exploding vehicle. Not sure how the KFF is going to help in this regard.

The exploding vehicle bit is just another example of GW not really caring about anything other than MEQ. The mechanic is not fair to other races and hasn't been since 4th edition.

sirlynchmob wrote:

a cheaper way is to fill a wagon up with grots, 19 grots and runtherder Not as good for hunting tanks, but not as many points invested for a mobile shooting platform. Use this wagon for def rollin and some big shoota shots, then if blows up the grots can run for an objective.

and when the wagon explodes, the 20 grots take 17 wounds and without a save they lose 17 models. The 2 remaining grots and the runtherder run for an objective, only to be shot down.

 Exergy wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

a cheaper way is to fill a wagon up with grots, 19 grots and runtherder Not as good for hunting tanks, but not as many points invested for a mobile shooting platform. Use this wagon for def rollin and some big shoota shots, then if blows up the grots can run for an objective.

and when the wagon explodes, the 20 grots take 17 wounds and without a save they lose 17 models. The 2 remaining grots and the runtherder run for an objective, only to be shot down.

But that one should be in KFF range for starters, so 3 more make their saves, leaving 5ish grots and the runthearder for 2 chances to make their 7+ leadership, and who would really shoot at them after that? at least not until someone was heading towards the objective they're at.

I never said it was the best option, just that it was a cheaper option.

@jayden63 pg 80, resolved as shooting hits, ergo cover saves if you have em.

 Exergy wrote:

Other than small haywire squads for vehicles, wyches are good as dead.

Were you under the impression they ever had another use?

I only started using Wyches after 6th edition and they are invaluable.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

Other than small haywire squads for vehicles, wyches are good as dead.

Were you under the impression they ever had another use?

I only started using Wyches after 6th edition and they are invaluable.

Wyches in 5th were multi-task unit, they could tarpit deadly assault units and have a chance to win(unlike now where they'll most likely lose), they could take down most shooting units with ease, they were our reliable HQ escort unit as well, and of course, they were amazing at AT as well.

But in 6th, it's as Exergy said, they're only for HWG purposes. More than half of the armies out there will deny them their sweeping advances through ATSKNF or fearless, they can only bully the much feared tau firewarriors and other similar pure-shooting units and... nothing much else. Their high I isn't bringing them much advantage once they've been reduced in size through overwatch, exploding vehicles and whatnot.

Anyhow... let's not devolve the thread into a "DE players whining about assault" thread!

DarknessEternal wrote:[The Haemonculus] has given out Feel No Pain, you don't care about him at all and will make him die first if you can. It saves 2 Wyches, Haemonculi are not Fleet.

wuestenfux wrote:In fact, it doesn't matter if the Haemie dies. He gave the pain token to the Wyches and would be a liablity anyway as he hasn't FoF.

Yeah this is it exactly. The Haemy is one of those rare characters that can 'give away' their special rules, leaving a relatively worthless model afterward. Don't forget a simple 50pt Haemy is a cheap way to fill the 1+ HQ requirement of a list, as well as giving FNP and being a bullet sponge. Good if you don't plan on taking an Archon etc.

Exergy wrote:he doesnt HAVE to stay with the wyches, so he doesnt slow them down without fleet. The pain token is not worth 50 points and an HQ slot. + if he dies your opponent gets a VP.

Ah, now that I think about it, if you only had Haemys as HQs, then one would be your warlord. So thats something to keep in mind if you're sacrificing him for your Wyches (I haven't had the chance to play a game of 6th yet, so this didn't occur to me).

Jayden63 wrote:The exploding vehicle bit is just another example of GW not really caring about anything other than MEQ.

Yeah this is what annoyed me as well. I guess the fact that you now can't assualt at all after you disembark from normal vehicles has sort of made open-topped vehicles better in comparison...but a fragile unit like Wyches taking wounds on a 3+ from an explosion seems a bit unfair. I still think Wyches aren't a great choice in 6th, I was just thinking of ways to salvage them.

I think the orky tactic is a better one. 15pts to soak about 3-4 wounds on average ain't too bad I think. If he gets into combat with his str5 attacks then thats a bonus, plus he can be annoying and challenge beatstick chars to challenge him instead of the boyz (this is one of the reasons I'm relying on MANz for my klaws rather than boyz squad nobz).

Trukks still deal a strength 3 hit when they explode due to unique ramshackle rules.

Orks inside the vehicle are, I'm pretty sure, still counted as being within range of the KFF. Additionally, I recall that the rulebook stated that casualties from explosions can be allocated by the controlling player.

Well, trukks are only str3 for explosions...but at the same time they have a 2/3 chance of exploding when they get wrecked through glances.
What the GW giveth, the GW taketh away...

Plus I'm not sure about this KFF when inside a vehicle thing. I think when it says 'Resolve [hits from explosions] as with shooting' it means allocate wounds as though from shooting attacks, not that cover saves are allowed. The fact that only KFF and Shield of Sanguinious (?) is affected by this interpretation makes it seem dubious to me. Regardless, even if you were to allow this interpretation, I assume that it would only apply to when a big mek is riding in the same wagon as the boyz when it blows. Therefore you could use a sacrificial nob to soak wounds in other wagons without a KFF inside.

Baronyu wrote:

Wyches in 5th were multi-task unit, they could tarpit deadly assault units and have a chance to win(unlike now where they'll most likely lose), they could take down most shooting units with ease, they were our reliable HQ escort unit as well, and of course, they were amazing at AT as well.

I'm not sure why you think they can't do any of those things.

 Mega Armoured Northener wrote:
Well, trukks are only str3 for explosions...but at the same time they have a 2/3 chance of exploding when they get wrecked through glances.
What the GW giveth, the GW taketh away...

Plus I'm not sure about this KFF when inside a vehicle thing. I think when it says 'Resolve [hits from explosions] as with shooting' it means allocate wounds as though from shooting attacks, not that cover saves are allowed. The fact that only KFF and Shield of Sanguinious (?) is affected by this interpretation makes it seem dubious to me. Regardless, even if you were to allow this interpretation, I assume that it would only apply to when a big mek is riding in the same wagon as the boyz when it blows. Therefore you could use a sacrificial nob to soak wounds in other wagons without a KFF inside.

Not claiming i ever did it right but it always made sense for me to use KFF saves for the unit when they said it is resolved as a shooting attack. Personally i don't mind it's a pretty minor # of losses20 hits becomes 10 wounds which means 8 dead orks more or less with standard armor. It's about 6-7 dead with a KFF. Ultimately it's suppose to be avoided in the first place if you lose the tansport, i feel bad for the DE tho they get it rough but normally have better armor than orks so it should... even out mostly.

An exploding vehicle should IMO take out more than about 50% of the people... but that is froma realism POV.

The main contention with the KFF in a transport:

The rule about transport explosions doesn't say the damage ignores cover. You resolve it as a shooting attack.

In regards to range, their placement is synonymous to the vehicle. The unit is within 3", just as the vehicle benifiting from the KFF is within 3".

I'd say they get it.

In 5th edition if an open-topped vehicle exploded it was a str3 hit to any passengers, now its always str4.

I don't mean to sound like a douche, but where is that written exactly? Page # and book would be appreciated... thanks lads 'n' lasses!

If there's a trick to making Wyches survive exploding papier-mâché transports I don't see it.

In 6th, my Harlequins and my Wyches died more often to their exploding transports than to enemy fire.

Yeah 6th ed looks a lot like 3rd ed did with open toped transports, being more a liability than a benefit. Only now since they will always explode you don't get the benefit of tactical terrain features. Exploding vehicles while i won't say should be removed completely needs to be a rarity not the rule.

So to go back to 3rd ed tactics you have turn 1 to boost forward to a terrain feature and drop your wytches there then make them walk and just use raiders as mobile DL's. And just hope you get first turn. With FnP being reduced to a 5+ and no way to boost your armor there isn't a way to reliably save them from explosions, so your going to have to make sure they get out before hand which isn't much better, as now your on foot.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

I'm not sure why you think they can't do any of those things.

Because they can't.

Between the transport disembark nerf, the power weapon nerf, overwatch, the feel no pain sideways-nerf and so on, Wyches are best used as a disposable AT unit. The 8-10 sized wych squads of 5th are long gone, as they had a narrow margin of victory against enemy units anyways and nowadays that margin has completely closed. The best way to run them now is so cheap that you don't give a damn if they die because you have more to spare, which is good because they are going to die horribly.

aleis wrote:
Yeah 6th ed looks a lot like 3rd ed did with open toped transports, being more a liability than a benefit. Only now since they will always explode you don't get the benefit of tactical terrain features. Exploding vehicles while i won't say should be removed completely needs to be a rarity not the rule.

So to go back to 3rd ed tactics you have turn 1 to boost forward to a terrain feature and drop your wytches there then make them walk and just use raiders as mobile DL's. And just hope you get first turn. With FnP being reduced to a 5+ and no way to boost your armor there isn't a way to reliably save them from explosions, so your going to have to make sure they get out before hand which isn't much better, as now your on foot.

If you want to get out on turn 1, that turn one boost is 6''of move, no more.

You can turn one boost and then drop them on turn 2, assuming the enemy lets you..

@DarknessEternal

They certainly can, there is nothing RAW that stops them from assaulting. But as I've said in my previous post, and Lokas has said in his post above this one, it's just incredibly difficult to do anything but AT, in 6th ed, wyches are just at the point of barely worth the points when fielded for assault purpose, whereas, fielding them as small AT units as Lokas said is much more cost-efficient and allow for space for better assault options to be brought. So, sure enough if you intend to use wyches for assault, go ahead and do it; there're still people running wych cults out there as well; but if you look at the entire codex and still think wyches are 1 of our top assault choices, that when you field them in 7-10 they can still make their points back in any way, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

My single squad of Wyches is not having any trouble slowing down deathstars still. What, did you think I meant they could beat them? They never could and that's not what they're for.

Deathstars?

God no.

But, used to be, Wyches could charge other army's troop choices and usually expect to win. They were close combat specialists, they won close combats. Nowadays? They're just lucky to get there. They have neither the speed to get there, nor the durability to withstand enemy fire.

As far as tarpitting, forgive me if I don't for a second believe you when you say Wyches are still an effective tarpit. They are, at best, leadership 9. They have no way of dealing with 2+ saves. If they run into a unit with such saves (as most death stars have) they will lose combat. Even if they take only a single casualty, they are now down to leadership 8. You will fail that leadership test about one in every three-four times. That's if you take a Hekatrix, and the Hekatrix is not killed via a challenge. Then you're down to leadership 7. Now we're talking about a 40% chance of failure.

This is if you lose combat by one wound.

Against paladins, against nob bikers, against a grotstar, I can all but guarantee that the wyches will lose by more than one wound. A 4++ only saves half their wounds, and death stars are death stars because they can pour on the wounds. Wyches have no way of dealing with 2+ saves, they have no way of negating Feel No Pain, they can't even get a leadership test reroll without you parking a very fragile, very easily eliminated vehicle within 6 inches of the combat. Wyches are not an effective tarpit, they used to be because they could frequently tie combat by denying enemies their saves and using our (at the time) superior mobility to ensure the charge. Nowadays, charge distance is random, you move less before you disembark, you can't run and assault, Dark Eldar cannot ensure the charge like they used to. We cannot tie combat like we used to. They are not an effective tarpit anymore. They are a speedbump to give your opponent's deathstar a free few inches of movement in the assault phase.

Wyches are a disposable anti-tank unit that can only be counted on to strip hull points and prey on severely weakened and depleted infantry squads.

 Lokas wrote:


Against paladins, against nob bikers, against a grotstar, I can all but guarantee that the wyches will lose by more than one wound. A 4++ only saves half their wounds, and death stars are death stars because they can pour on the wounds. Wyches have no way of dealing with 2+ saves, they have no way of negating Feel No Pain, they can't even get a leadership test reroll without you parking a very fragile, very easily eliminated vehicle within 6 inches of the combat. Wyches are not an effective tarpit, they used to be because they could frequently tie combat by denying enemies their saves and using our (at the time) superior mobility to ensure the charge. Nowadays, charge distance is random, you move less before you disembark, you can't run and assault, Dark Eldar cannot ensure the charge like they used to. We cannot tie combat like we used to. They are not an effective tarpit anymore. They are a speedbump to give your opponent's deathstar a free few inches of movement in the assault phase.

Wyches are a disposable anti-tank unit that can only be counted on to strip hull points and prey on severely weakened and depleted infantry squads.

Hmmm. A few things. The only deathstar you listed with a 2+ are Paladins, the Wyches combat prowess against the other two has only increased, as FNP has gotten worse, sure the Agonizer doesn't ignore it, but every single other attack in the unit is now more deadly. The Agonizer isn't, and never was, the end all and be all of the wyches damage capabilities.

Also, the FNP change is a clear "upgrade" against deathstars as they tend to have power weapons, and the attacks with double strength always were double strength.

Don't want to derail, but people just need to take a closer look on how they are running them. The 5th edition design is no longer valid I would agree, but the AT 5 chicks with haywire in a Venom certainly isn't the only viable build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for those who haven't gotten it yet, if you're still worried about overwatch, PGL+FNP. Get it, learn it, use it.

Nob bikers are T 5, Wyches are S 3.

trust me, they haven't got much better against them

The Agoniser was good against them because it wounded on 4+ anyway, was a power weapon (ignore the regular amour save) and denied FNP.

Now it still ignores the regular save, and still wounds on 4+, but doesn't deny FNP. Even with it reduced it makes a difference,

Regular wych attacks can barely scratch Nob bikers, wounding on 6's , and still have to contend with 4+ saves, and then FNP, just like they did before. They simply can't put out enough damage to make a difference to the unit, and will lose combat, break and run instead of tarpitting. The hekatrix would be the one making the difference with her ability to ignore both armour and FNP making it possible to do enough wounds to tie or not lose combat too badly.

I play both DE and Orks. I've been on both ends of this fight.