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this edition i have mostly been running nob bikers, a war boss on a bike and a grot squad as my core 2 troops and a hq... if points allow i have found flashgitz in a battlewagon to be pretty scary, shootier and blasta upgrades, a painboy and the captain behind av14, sometimes with a kff mek for reapirs and cover saves beside a loota wagon isn't a bad way to go

i imagine nuking a terminator squad would be magic its just finding the time to convert some

yea Aobr make great flash gitz, I left eh decorative choppa, threw on some sights from lootaz and gave em various eldar and tau weapons to say that the orks looted and modded weapons, i added some random orky bits from nob boxes to

The combi-rokkits from the nobz box also make for great starting points when building snazz gunz.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Eiluj The Farseer wrote:
I have always wanted to try them, but just don't think they are worth their points. The cover save thing is good, but I find my bike nobz with warboss so much more versatile and with T5 or 6 with FNP, more survivable. With the Aegis line, I try to get into a position where they will not get the cover or charge them. I do this by either the position of my Dakka Jets or Bikers with Shoota/Skorchas - those things make a nice mess out of anything and the skorchas ignore cover too. However if I can get my bike on the flank or behind the lines then I don't have to worry about cover. I think the answer for the cover is more dakka versus getting rid of cover saves. Yes they have the 2up save but then they can only snap fire next turn. While my lootas do not mind this and I use it often, most other armies do.. Cheers all

This isn't the answer to the problem,

2+ re-rollables are 1/36 probability to failure that means for 1 dead eldar Pathfinder you'd not only need to fire 2 Dakkajets durring a Waaagh but hit with all of them and wound with all of them as well.

Think smarter not harder, The Flash gitz are 340 pts to instantly deny that 1/36 probability down to simple hits and wounds once again with only a 1/6 chance of allowing the pathfinders a 5 plus armor save.

i am seriously not joking when I say, "I have fired 150 shots plus and killed 2 Pathfinders" that came from 60 ork shootas and battle wagons... JUST TO MAKE MORALE SAVES!

Meanwhile let's compare this to the same squad of Footslogger nobz of 395 pts... that is with Cybork bodies, Eavy armor and waaagh banner, boss pole, big choppas and 2 power klaws. ultimately a better unit for Assualt purposes but every ork player with his salt knows right now Shooting has become just as important as Assaults. We need to rethink our starts, It''s seriously too easy to abuse cover and receive a 3 or 2+ cover save ageis defense line just makes it easier! We need to start thinking about units which can assualt well and shoot well with good armor, I mean ZOG the flash gitz are the EXACT same price as nobz everyone says they are more expensive but purdent planning makes all the difference in the world.

25 pts per nob (if given same armor as a Flash Git) vs 25 for a basic flash git.

The only upgrades you really need for Flash gitz is More Dakka. Shootier is just overkill and Blastas is USEFUL but not needed less you run against MEQ. They don't need a transport if you are foot slogging especially with KFF's but a battlewagon never hurts. Take a good long look at your tactics are you getting the best bang for your buck to take biker nobs? what happens when a drednought plans to counter you for charging in? Better hope it doesn't start ripping your nobz apart... A prudent Flash gitz squad never has to face it with their range and if the enemy lacks such an element you can still run in with the rest of the boyz it's an easier unit to deny First blood overall that is without question the only thin that does that better is Big Gunz at this time and only if not assaulted!

In my opinion flash gitz are on even ground with Nobz in all areas other than vehicluar slaughter ... except... that Warboss running with them puts an end to that.

I just don't think Flash Gits for their points are the answer. You are so worried about pathfinders and their 2 up saves. One I play orks and Eldar and other things. The Pathfinders are not doing much in the game, if you are really that worried about them, then attack them in CC. I still think more bodies and dakka are the way to go instead of worrying about cover saves, if you force more saves they will fail more. If you are focussing on pathfinders, I try to get close and komb-skorcha them or burna them or CC. I played a tournement game with someone with long fangs with 5 missile lauchers inside their Bastion and I just ignored it the whole game and concentrated on the rest of his stuff and I won the round. I see what you are saying, but I do not think that it is as big of deal as you are saying. The things that really take advantage of the cover saves can be killed other ways. IMO I think dakka and template weapons are the better points spent then on expensive Heavy Support choices.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In this edition I have gone to nob squads on bike rather than having them in a vehicle or footslogging it at all.
6 th edition has changed my tactics on other armies as well. I almost always run Guardian Jet bikes now since they are so fast and T4, my seer councils with autarch are always on jet bikes as the bike save and invuln with fortune makes them wicked hard to kill
With the Seer Council, the Flashgits won't make back their points, because you have less dakka for the points and the seer council does not care about cover saves as they have a 4 up invuln and a 3 up regular save, which depending on your ap roll most likely they will be getting their 3up save rerollable with fortune... in this case more dakka or shots = more chances of failing a saving throw. Now I am not saying it won't take a lot of hits as it will regardless of what is shot at them, I am saying that more Dakka is more likely to get the job done.

Interesting tactics, I think its time for me to give Flash Gitz a go, now to model some using leftover necron/SM bitz and Nob bodies.... Well written, thanks.

just thought that if you give them str6 they can glance AV12 this could be quite effective against flyers and the fact that you deny them their jink save and even their flat out save not to mention vehicles that use smoke launchers or Delder night sheilds. So the Gitz can be incredibly versatile able to take on all comers

No, dont waste your time shooting them at vehicles, thats probably the WORST thing you could do. If youve nothing else to shoot then sure go for it, because a wasted chance is a bad thing. But they are meant for smoking bodies, not vehicles

 KingCracker wrote:
No, dont waste your time shooting them at vehicles, thats probably the WORST thing you could do. If youve nothing else to shoot then sure go for it, because a wasted chance is a bad thing. But they are meant for smoking bodies, not vehicles

Agreed, Again gang feel free to post your results. I should have some hypothedicals tonight when my roomie gets home we are going to match just the 9 flash gitz vs. 20 marines tonight I expect marines to win since this is just a side on side fight too many complications in the real game to identify what is going on until later this week when i actually feild test them against marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually plan to write down records to post in the morning about our mock matches and posting the raw misses, over-heats and ap's of each mock. Give me other ideas of what to do. I was thinking of situationals like Moving through terrain, charging into assualt, receiving the charge ect. again the easiest comparison i imagine was marines vs Flashgitz did you have anything else you would like to see the flashgitz fight?

So far I plan to run the tests like this

Test #1: Control Test (no upgrades)

Test #2: Upgrades (More Dakka) Move into 24 inches, continue to shoot and move toward Space Marines until reaching CC and results of CC after first round.

Test #3: Control Test (no Upgrades)

Test #4: Uprgrades (More Dakka) Moves into 24 inches, continues to shoot and move toward Space Marines, Marines shall move and shoot until one of us charges.

Test #5: Control Test (No upgrades)

Test #6: Upgrades (Blastas) Move into 24 inches, continue to shoot and move toward Space Marines until reaching CC and results of CC after first round.

Test #7: Control Test (no Upgrades)

Test #8: Uprgrades (Blastas) Moves into 24 inches, continues to shoot and move toward Space Marines, Marines shall move and shoot until one of us charges.

Test #9: Control Test: (No Upgrades)

Test #10: Uprgrades (More Dakka & Blastas) Moves into 24 inches, Move into 24 inches, continue to shoot and move toward Space Marines until reaching CC and results of CC after first round.

Test # 11: Control Test: (No Upgrades)

Test #12: ALL UPGRADES Moves into 24 inches, Move into 24 inches, continue to shoot and move toward Space Marines until reaching CC and results of CC after first round.

Test #13: Control Test: (No Upgrades)

So not trying to derail the thread, but what about burna bombas? They can fire off 6 rockets on the turn they come in and have burna bombs. You could easily get 2, maybe 3 for the cost of a flashgit squad. Why not bring one or two of them to try?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So not trying to derail the thread, but what about burna bombas? They can fire off 6 rockets on the turn they come in and have burna bombs. You could easily get 2, maybe 3 for the cost of a flashgit squad. Why not bring one or two of them to try?

I don't deny the Burna Bombah is am amazing choice, and pt for pt accomplishes more kills of med armor and cover huggers than I know. My problem is I have seen SO MUCH AA out there that it goes without saying that Flash gitz prove the larger problem in the longrun. I personally would go Burna Bombah before I went with Flash gitz personally if I wanted to accomplish anti-cover but the problem is with only 10 armor... it will fail especially if you have someone who can cut cover or is a tank hunter manning the Quad gun

I would rather the enemy need to focus fire on a squad which can shrug off bullets before a vehicle now and days. I will take the vehicles but to me it's dangerous to do so all willy nilly like more orks seem to now and days.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

You'll see for 465 pts I have made a unit which...

Costs $465?

 KingCracker wrote:
No, dont waste your time shooting them at vehicles, thats probably the WORST thing you could do. If youve nothing else to shoot then sure go for it, because a wasted chance is a bad thing. But they are meant for smoking bodies, not vehicles

thats what i meant if you have no squishy troops to go after vehicles

psyklone wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

You'll see for 465 pts I have made a unit which...

Costs $465?

I could make a unit of flash gits for less than 65.... where are you getting your numbers from? lol

I made a basic 5 from a $20 nob box So Ill charge whoever wants to spend that kind of cash to make Gitz for them, and then pocket the extra 400+

there are some pirate ork heads i may have to get like

Those heads are a bit large, so make sure you only put them on Nob bodies. Ive seen people stick them on boyz, and it just looks goofy.

so Results of the testing were complete... i admit i did crappy lists here...

I pitted the Flash gitz in 3 styles of hypothetical testing since my Flash Gitz were 340 pts i pit them against the most gruling style of shooting i could imagine under the most common circumstances ... namely 2 squads of 10 marines.

Normal Unit
We did More Dakka Upgrades
We did Blastas
We did combination of those two
I didn't use Shootier...because as I said 16% wounding rate isn't huge it just helps.

the methods we used were

2 rounds of shooting exchange + random CC charges (after 2 round we rolled off to decide who charged whom winner charged loser overwatched) [this test was unlikely but it was just raw numbers after some peppered shots]

The other method was "Choose your own" Basically we determined that when the game started I would move into 24inches exactly. My enemy would decide how far he would move then I would decide how far I moved and so on all the while shooting like were the only units on the field. And assualt could be declared, overwatch issued and distance rolled, when i assaulted i picked one of the 2 units

I learned beyond a shadow of doubt that More Dakka is without a doubt the MOST IMPORTANT upgrade you can get and by itself... perhaps the very best one. the idea of cutting marine armor is already 50/50 taking blastas more or less pushes it to a 66% likelihood of killing marines outright. I even had one round where more dakka killed 8 marines in one shooting phase (it was a weird roll! lol)

Normal unit with no upgrades control test always did the poorest, only hitting with 1-3 hits out of the 8, AP was average around 2-4 (that was just rolls), normally 2-3 marines would die on a good Ap round if it was a bad ap round it would normally hover around 1-2 only.

More Dakka upgraded the unit drastically normally hitting with 3-5 and killing 2-4 every round regardless of AP i would say this was the best probability of killing.

Blastas by themselves are good but the volume is something to be desired, it was about the same amount of kills being shot out as more dakka overall but i was leaving our tests with less Flash gitz all together.

Combining More Dakka and Blastas was as expected VERY POWERFUL but it compound the gets hot, ultimately it wasn't that odd to lose 1-2 boyz just from 2 rounds of shooting these guns but my dice was odd. Ultimately the enemy always took more than I did but the possibility isn't suggested if you want long term use. Think of it like gasoline if you drive faster and harder you burn more of it than slow and steady winning the race.

Ultimately the unit preformed well on charges but didn't receive them too well. keep in mind this was with the unit by themselves and not with the Warboss I was suggesting, so tides should have easily changed if you know as much about Warbosses as I do.

I would say they faired about where I expected them to, with the new nobz nerf and cover showing no signs of not being nerfed I will keep these tests in the back of my head but as discussed ultimately the best way we have to deal with enemies is still flyers + burnas/skorchas/missles/bombs BUT this doesn't mean our best method isn't easily countered by someone expecting it especially in tourney play. I suggest we keep trying the units and see how they fair i would rate them as a 5-6 out of 10 for shooting while Lootas and shoota boyz are more like 7-9 obviously if someone is more worried about the flash gitz then that works for my tactics but I run true footsloggers

but as far as durability i would certainly suggest them if you plan to have an ugly match where you need to knock someone like eldar, tau or IG off an objective you know they plan to abuse? yeah we will need to seriously consider getting some boots on the ground and using these units they can rip open cover huggers in mid range before closing for long.

Why would someone be foot slogging nobs?
That is clearly not the best idea and I could see flashgitz performing better. Though being scoring is a big deal, bosspoles are a big deal, also they are happen to be characters.

I could see tank bustas performing better still.

Also cover is not that important anymore, away from flyers and skimmers.

S0 the main reason for them are: Nice fluffy choice; good modelling opportunities

MFletch wrote:
Why would someone be foot slogging nobs?
That is clearly not the best idea and I could see flashgitz performing better. Though being scoring is a big deal, bosspoles are a big deal, also they are happen to be characters.

I could see tank bustas performing better still.

Also cover is not that important anymore, away from flyers and skimmers.

S0 the main reason for them are: Nice fluffy choice; good modelling opportunities

You clearly aren't playing the tourney brackets...

Also footslogging = less choices for force org needing used and if the enemy is going to pour shots into them that means my 90+ shoota boyz are unmolested... fine by me

Cover is the main abuse in this game atm, 2+ cover then get back into the fight is the easiest spam i have seen in this game so far to make an entire army feel like terminators.

So you see many ork lists at tournaments and from that lot some that foot slog nobs? Nob bikers then yes, you see a lot of them.

Footslogging nobs does not mean less force org. used given bikes and battlewagons do not need an extra slot for them.

I would assume your 90 shootas will be unmolested by the st8 shots that will instant kill nobs. However, they may get hit badly by the bolter rounds which nobs can more or less laugh off.

I would rather start from scratch and contest the original premise that was the main motivation for taking Flash Gitz;
the assumption that cover-saves in 6th (as opposed to 5th) are more easily attainable and more abusable.

Only if that premise is true is the discussion worth having, as Flash Gitz certainly wasn't "worth it" in 5th.

Steelmage99 wrote:
I would rather start from scratch and contest the original premise that was the main motivation for taking Flash Gitz;
the assumption that cover-saves in 6th (as opposed to 5th) are more easily attainable and more abusable.

Only if that premise is true is the discussion worth having, as Flash Gitz certainly wasn't "worth it" in 5th.

Easily obtained, certainly but easily abused? hardly...

Let me ask you what you do against 1 quad gun with Burna bombahs?

And your burna boys what will you do against shooting phases?

The idea of the Flash gitz isn't just to cut cover it's to analyze their true potential in this edition. And i wasn't surprised when i saw how easily they wiped even MEQ let alone cover abusers.

On a side note, Footslogging has been proving very useful for me in matches, that and battlwagons again the idea isn't tos ay that big gunz or battle wagons are a better all around buy for our army but for a well rounded cover cuter, assaulting tough unit it can't be beat at this time by anything save meganobz and biker nobz.

So literally all NOBZ are proving the best statline we have at this time for absorbing gunfire save a warboss each of them specializes in 1 category

Basic nobz = Cost effective CCers
Biker Nobz= Fast CC for extra cost
Flash Gitz = range gurus with moderate CC but the same toughness as basic nobz

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So not trying to derail the thread, but what about burna bombas? They can fire off 6 rockets on the turn they come in and have burna bombs. You could easily get 2, maybe 3 for the cost of a flashgit squad. Why not bring one or two of them to try?

Nope - Flier rules say you can only fire up to two missiles a turn.

They are great though - but are in contention with Dakka jets. Having a tough time choosing a second dakka jet or a burna bomma, myself.

I usually run the burna bommer as third plane, as I want a second dakka jet over the bommer any time. The bommer is nice, but has some issues compared to the Dakkajet: First of all, it isn't much better when fighting armies not relying on cover, like MEQ or daemons, but that is kind of offset by the ability to carpet bomb units that do rely on cover off the table. Second is that the burna bommer is quite capable of completely missing its target(s). The bomb can still scatter 4", and the missiles up to 10", which usually results in the shot being completely wasted. Third, at BS2 it really isn't good at shooting fliers at all, and doesn't get a big boost from the Waaagh!.
If I already have two dakka jets, most of those downsides become none-issues, and only the awesomeness of igniting light infantry remains.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I would rather start from scratch and contest the original premise that was the main motivation for taking Flash Gitz;
the assumption that cover-saves in 6th (as opposed to 5th) are more easily attainable and more abusable.

Only if that premise is true is the discussion worth having, as Flash Gitz certainly wasn't "worth it" in 5th.

Easily obtained, certainly but easily abused? hardly...

Are cover-saves easily obtained in 6th compared to 5th?

Sure, vehicles caught a break.
Infantry? Going from "if any part is obscured" to "25% obscured" means that cover is harder to obtain in 6th than it was in 5th, and the ability to focus fire also affects the relative ease with which to get a cover-save.

My point is that you presented the premise that because cover was better (not true), easier to obtain (not true) and abusable (cannot see how) then Flash Gitz had gotten better because of the ability to ignore cover-saves.
I disagree with that.


EDIT. Hey, waitaminnit. You are the OP.

How do you first say;

Cover saves are not only taken advantage of in this edition..

and then say;

Easily obtained, certainly but easily abused? hardly...

?


.....

The whole problem here is acting like Flash Gits are experts at ranged combat, when they put at best 6 hits on target from a unit costing around 500 points (including the cost of the warboss).

so as I said before, if you want to nuke a unit of Eldar Pathfinders then that's about the one thing flash gits are good at, because 6 S5 cover-ignoring hits will actually kill the squad. Guardsmen behind a defense line? you'll kill 5, which will most definitely be the lasgun-toting meatshields. you could blaze away all game and accomplish very little, especially walking across the board slowly while firing.

I re-state my premise: If you need to deal with a 2+ cover save unit, move full speed towards it and assault it. If it's only a 3+ or 4+ save unit, fire on it with nice cheap Shoota boyz, or assault it.

Don't get me wrong, I love Flash Gits because they're hilarious and extremely Orky. The problem is they took a high-value weapon like a Snazzgun, kept the Orky BS 2, and then put it on a Nob chassis. No matter how great the stats of the Snazzgun look on paper, you'll never have enough of them to overcome BS 2.

If Flash Gitz had a regular boy profile (and appropriate points cost) they'd be a lot more viable as a shooting unit. Right now they're intended as a mixed-role unit but they fail spectacularly at shooting (6 hits from a full unit) and assault (no base invulnerable, no bosspole, no banner, no CC upgrades, etc.).

Make no mistake they are not even remotely competitive. just a heck of a lot of fun.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:
I would rather start from scratch and contest the original premise that was the main motivation for taking Flash Gitz;
the assumption that cover-saves in 6th (as opposed to 5th) are more easily attainable and more abusable.

Only if that premise is true is the discussion worth having, as Flash Gitz certainly wasn't "worth it" in 5th.

Easily obtained, certainly but easily abused? hardly...

Are cover-saves easily obtained in 6th compared to 5th?

Sure, vehicles caught a break.
Infantry? Going from "if any part is obscured" to "25% obscured" means that cover is harder to obtain in 6th than it was in 5th, and the ability to focus fire also affects the relative ease with which to get a cover-save.

My point is that you presented the premise that because cover was better (not true), easier to obtain (not true) and abusable (cannot see how) then Flash Gitz had gotten better because of the ability to ignore cover-saves.
I disagree with that.


EDIT. Hey, waitaminnit. You are the OP.

How do you first say;

Cover saves are not only taken advantage of in this edition..

and then say;

Easily obtained, certainly but easily abused? hardly...

?


.....

Cover is spammed in this edition. Face an ageis defense line + guard and tell me they aren't RIGHT NOW. lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fouler wrote:
The whole problem here is acting like Flash Gits are experts at ranged combat, when they put at best 6 hits on target from a unit costing around 500 points (including the cost of the warboss).

so as I said before, if you want to nuke a unit of Eldar Pathfinders then that's about the one thing flash gits are good at, because 6 S5 cover-ignoring hits will actually kill the squad. Guardsmen behind a defense line? you'll kill 5, which will most definitely be the lasgun-toting meatshields. you could blaze away all game and accomplish very little, especially walking across the board slowly while firing.

I re-state my premise: If you need to deal with a 2+ cover save unit, move full speed towards it and assault it. If it's only a 3+ or 4+ save unit, fire on it with nice cheap Shoota boyz, or assault it.

Don't get me wrong, I love Flash Gits because they're hilarious and extremely Orky. The problem is they took a high-value weapon like a Snazzgun, kept the Orky BS 2, and then put it on a Nob chassis. No matter how great the stats of the Snazzgun look on paper, you'll never have enough of them to overcome BS 2.

If Flash Gitz had a regular boy profile (and appropriate points cost) they'd be a lot more viable as a shooting unit. Right now they're intended as a mixed-role unit but they fail spectacularly at shooting (6 hits from a full unit) and assault (no base invulnerable, no bosspole, no banner, no CC upgrades, etc.).

Make no mistake they are not even remotely competitive. just a heck of a lot of fun.

Again, no complaints here btw. The Flashgit is a harsh model to justify at this time because CC is very make or brake now and days since so many people are geared for guns as opposed to CC. BUT the idea of having a unit which CAN assualt but cut down some troublesome units for the boyz before hand shouldn't be overlooked or treated as more expensive/not worth it. They can be but it has to be in a situation where you know cover abuse + AA is coming or you just want a well rounded ork model which is vaguely reminiscent to MEQ + FNP + cover cutting. It's not a choice I plan to make anytime soon I love my dakka jets and burna bomahs but this whole forum wasn't to glorify them it was to remind us that they could run at tau and kill them behind cover giving less things for the orkish hordes to have to worry about assualting over time since multi-assualts no longer are viable having ways to get rid of cover specialists to save yourself wasted time and assualt options before game end is priceless sometimes.

Regarding the Flash Git upgrades specifically, and leaving the broader question of the overall unit viability aside, I did some MathHammer on what to buy for maximum point efficiency.

Base Flash Git vs. GEQ (T3/5+)
1.0000 (attacks) x 0.3333 (hits) x 0.8333 (wounds) x 0.6667 (failed armor saves) x 1.0000 (failed FNP) x 0.1667 (AP probability) = 0.0309 wounds, plus
1.0000 (attacks) x 0.3333 (hits) x 0.8333 (wounds) x 1.0000 (failed armor saves) x 1.0000 (failed FNP) x 0.8333 (AP probability) = 0.2315 wounds, equals
0.2623 total expected wounds per model, divided by 25 points equals 0.0105 wounds per point.

Base Flash Git vs. GEQ (T3/4+/5+ FNP)
1.0000 (attacks) x 0.3333 (hits) x 0.8333 (wounds) x 0.5000 (failed armor saves) x 0.6667 (failed FNP) x 0.3333 (AP probability) = 0.0309 wounds, plus
1.0000 (attacks) x 0.3333 (hits) x 0.8333 (wounds) x 1.0000 (failed armor saves) x 0.6667 (failed FNP) x 0.6667 (AP probability) = 0.1235 wounds, equals
0.1543 total expected wounds per model, divided by 25 points equals 0.0062 wounds per point.

Against T3 models with 4+ or worse armor saves and no FNP, go with more dakka. This doubles your expected wounds (to 0.5247 at 5+ armor or 0.4630 at 4+ armor) for only 20% more points.

Against T3 models with 4+ or worse armor saves and FNP, more dakka and shootier is the most efficient choice, clocking in at 0.5247 wounds at 5+ armor and 0.4630 wounds at 4+ armor. The extra point of strength from shootier is enough to double out a T3 model, which denies a FNP save, and more dakka is again a cheap way to increase damage.

Against MEQ or TEQ of any kind, you will want to pick up all three upgrades to maximize effectiveness. Having said that, you are now paying Terminator prices to put down 0.4321 wounds on a vanilla Marine (0.3241 on a Terminator). This is still roughly twice as cost-effective as adding another Flash Git would be, but you've probably got more effective tools to use at this point.

Its a shame because i love the idea of the gitz all they need to be viable is BS3 thats it and i would take them every game. Hopefully they will be given BS3 in the next dex