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 Lynata wrote:
I too think that it's about the distinction between the mere concept of Chaos as the concept of an enemy (chiefly heretic cults sowing discontent, but also as a justification for culling mutants) and full-blown supernatural Daemonic incursions ravaging entire worlds.

"There are Daemons abroad in the universe, and the link that these entities have with the Warp is not a commonly known or understood phenomenon within the broader community of the Imperium. [...] What little awareness exists amongst the peoples of the Imperium is never openly or officially acknowledged. Tales of the Warp and its unpleasant inhabitants are dismissed as scaremongering or mere superstition. [...] The primary motivation for keeping knowledge of Daemons secret is to ensure that the greater population is not catastrophically disturbed by such revelations and driven to madness, despair and mass civil unrest through the knowledge of them. There is a world of difference between understanding that there are vile, antipathetic alien species at large in the universe and knowing that one's immortal soul is at risk from predation by unholy daemonig entities from a hellish dimension a mere thought away from our own. Also, as dangerous as Warp travel may be perceived to be, if the general populace was to realise that it was, in fact, through a realm inhabited by Daemons, it is unlikely that anyone would willingly submit themselves to such a means of transport or trust any of the astropathic messages sent through it. [...] The bearers of this knowledge are few, and they share this information reluctantly. The Inquisition and their erstwhile allies, the Grey Knights, are among the tiny number of humans who are allowed to know of the Daemons and their evil ways. Most others who come into contact with them are culled to prevent both the promulgation of knowledge and the possible spread of daemonic taint. If they are of sufficient value to the Imperium, they are mind-wiped to erase all memories of the encounter."
-- 6E rulebook, p404

Came here to post exactly that excerpt

 DeffDred wrote:

 Anfauglir wrote:

Bran Dawri wrote:

Space Marines present in such an invasion are usually mindwiped and then retrained, being too valuable to be treated so harshly.

Whoa, woah... what?

The humble Guardsman not being able to handle daemons is one thing, sure. But Astartes being "mindwiped" (and retrained!!!)? WTH? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. At all.

Yeah it's stupid. You must hate the GK codex.

Space marines know about Deamons, fluff on the White Scars character in C:SM has him hunting down a Deamon Prince to name drop one. You have misquoted or misread the C:GK, Space Marines undergo a specialist memory alteration to remove knowledge of the Grey Knights, not Deamons (and only the ones that refuse are retained).

It makes sense that the Imperium wouldn't want everyone to know about daemons, it's more of a need to know basis. I'm pretty sure even though Cadians have fought Chaos for the last 10,000 years, there are still those that get "wiped", or "purged". But really important or experienced units of Guard who have fought Chaos are also a huge boon. If you mind wiped everyone that just fought and defeated an enemy, how could you defeat them again if you don't remember doing that. I think it depends on the individual Regiments experience, fighting skills, and worth to a fight that must keep some regiments, such as the Cadian 8th, the Catachan 2nd, and other such experienced Regiments from being wiped. But that's just my opinion.

 Wardragoon wrote:

Colonel-Commissar wrote:
I Gaunt's Ghosts, they know very well about Cultists and Chaos Space Marines.

No daemons though.

When the Guard retook Gereon there was a Bloodthirster.

There was also what very much seemed like a Great Unclean One on Caligula in Ghostmaker and a metal, skeletal daemon in First and Only. Both of which were seen by the Ghosts (Larken went insaner seeing the GUO while Corbec was actually held in the air by the skeletal daemon before blowing its head off).

In the GG books, they show extreme distaste for all things Chaos, and even find it hard to speak the gods names (Caffran couldn't say Khorne without dry wretching in Ghostmaker), but they know of the Chaos gods and daemons.

But, well, Black Library isn't always the best source for 'official' fluff.

GUO in Gaunt Ghost? Really? I'll have to re-read that.

 DeffDred wrote:

Yeah it's stupid. You must hate the GK codex.

Too right it's stupid. I haven't had the (dis?)pleasure of reading the Grey Knights Codex, they've never "grabbed" me like they have many, many others it seems. I'm not exactly rushing out to do it either, as more often than not what I do hear of them is... well, stupid.

 White Ninja wrote:

Ya seeing as the whole Imperium was almost torn apart by chaos space marines trying to stop more being corrupted makes no sense at all.

By "mind-wipping and retraining" them? Correct. The IoM took neccessary steps to prevent the HH from happening again, they saw the danger of having a powerful and corruptable individual with thousands of Astartes, scores of Battle Fleets, hundreds of Mechnaicum assets and millions of soldiers at their immediate fingertips, and they amended their organisation. Sure, it's created as many problems as it's solved (not to mention almost caused a second civil war, to boot!), but it's a price to pay for wanting to control as much galactic territory as the IoM has - and wants (read: all of it).

In the aftermath of the HH, it's more important then ever for Imperial forces to know what they're up against. Here's a slice of elementary military advice; know your enemy. A useful Space Marine is one who can spot a heretic or a warp-related abomination and put a Bolt round in their skull, not a Space Marine who it taught to turn their back, put their fingers in their ears while chanting "la la la if I can't see or hear you then you're not there!"

It's lunacy, plain and simple.

 -Loki- wrote:
There was also what very much seemed like a Great Unclean One on Caligula in Ghostmaker and a metal, skeletal daemon in First and Only. Both of which were seen by the Ghosts (Larken went insaner seeing the GUO while Corbec was actually held in the air by the skeletal daemon before blowing its head off).

In the GG books, they show extreme distaste for all things Chaos, and even find it hard to speak the gods names (Caffran couldn't say Khorne without dry wretching in Ghostmaker), but they know of the Chaos gods and daemons.

But, well, Black Library isn't always the best source for 'official' fluff.

Except that when it comes to some writers, one of those being Abnett, BL fiction usually has a "better" or "more sensical" take on the universe than "official" fluff.

Read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. The entirety of Macaroth's crusade knows about Chaos and knows that they're fighting it. Hell, some of Gaunt's crew spent years on a planet infested with Chaos...nobody executed them.

As far as a blanket statement on canon. The quote has been thrown around a lot but it basically says: pick your own fluff from what you want to believe.

 gpfunk wrote:
Read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. The entirety of Macaroth's crusade knows about Chaos and knows that they're fighting it. Hell, some of Gaunt's crew spent years on a planet infested with Chaos...nobody executed them.

As far as a blanket statement on canon. The quote has been thrown around a lot but it basically says: pick your own fluff from what you want to believe.

What he said.

Sometimes they are ARE allowed to know about it and are even warned of it before hand (Cadians would know all about daemons) and sometimes they get the Armageddon treatment (kill everyone who survived)


Ya in the Gaunt's Ghost novel dealing with the Imperial Invasion of the planet from "Traitor General" (I forgot the name of both book and planet) has an Armored column runs straight into a Bloodthirster and I believe the Guardsman watch the fight comments on it by name though I could miss remember (he wasnt surprised when he saw it I know that)

 Anfauglir wrote:

 DeffDred wrote:

Yeah it's stupid. You must hate the GK codex.

Too right it's stupid. I haven't had the (dis?)pleasure of reading the Grey Knights Codex, they've never "grabbed" me like they have many, many others it seems. I'm not exactly rushing out to do it either, as more often than not what I do hear of them is... well, stupid.

When debating about fluff (or having opinions in general) it is better to know what you are actually talkng about.

As already said, the number of fluff pieces about Space Marine chapters knowing about deamons and actively hunting them is large and covers multipe codex sources.

The part about mind wiping Space Marines in C:GK is about the fact that most Chapters do not know about the Grey Knights and in any operation where they come into contact with them the marines involved are made (although most do it willingly) to undergo a selective memory removal.It does not remove the memories of fighting deamons only the memories of the Grey Knights.

 Bobthehero wrote:
GUO in Gaunt Ghost? Really? I'll have to re-read that.

Like a GUO. Big, bloated, tentacles, too many mouths, too many eyes, surrounded by unbearable stench and a cloud of big flies. Certainly sounded like a GUO. They killed it with a lance strike from an orbiting cruiser.

gpfunk wrote:Read the Gaunt's Ghosts novels. The entirety of Macaroth's crusade knows about Chaos and knows that they're fighting it. Hell, some of Gaunt's crew spent years on a planet infested with Chaos...nobody executed them.

To be fair, that was very close run, and would have ended with them on the short end of a firing squad until Cirk told the Inquisition about the moth venom. They certainly were very closely watched and distrusted by everyone after that too.

gpfunk wrote:Ya in the Gaunt's Ghost novel dealing with the Imperial Invasion of the planet from "Traitor General" (I forgot the name of both book and planet) has an Armored column runs straight into a Bloodthirster and I believe the Guardsman watch the fight comments on it by name though I could miss remember (he wasnt surprised when he saw it I know that)

I seem to remember some of the Guardsmen that saw it going a tad insane as well. It certainly wasn't a pleasant sight, even if Dalin wanted to see it.

Something Abnett changed after the first book was the observation dome on ships. In First and Only, Gaunt stares out into the warp, finding it calming. After that book, viewing the warp is always a no-no.

 BluntmanDC wrote:

When debating about fluff (or having opinions in general) it is better to know what you are actually talkng about.

As already said, the number of fluff pieces about Space Marine chapters knowing about deamons and actively hunting them is large and covers multipe codex sources.

The part about mind wiping Space Marines in C:GK is about the fact that most Chapters do not know about the Grey Knights and in any operation where they come into contact with them the marines involved are made (although most do it willingly) to undergo a selective memory removal.It does not remove the memories of fighting deamons only the memories of the Grey Knights.

Which is why my response is to the topic and the topic creator first and foremost, and only secondarily/conditionally to the Grey Knights Codex. Seeing as I can take your word for what's in there, I can assume the condition has not been met.

Is the mind alteration and retraining of Astartes to remove knowledge of Grey Knights as stupid as it is for daemons? No, I don't think so. Is the idea of mind altering and retraining Astartes to remove knowledge of daemons (what's being discussed) still stupid? Absolutely.

Keep in mind, we don't necessarily know what happened to a lot of the Ghosts after the crusade...

The Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer makes vague reference to Chaos. So I'd say that they can know about chaos, but any actual possible taint or corruption equates to execution.

 Compel wrote:
Keep in mind, we don't necessarily know what happened to a lot of the Ghosts after the crusade...

They are refrenced in other 40k books like Ciaphas Cain so I am guessing nothing bad.

In the first Ciaphas Cain book he mentions the Tanith 1st by name and the Inquistor mentions Gaunt (indirectly)

IIRC the suriving brave defenders of Armegddon were not actually immediately executed - but dragged of to slave camps, sterilised and isolated from the "new colonists" until they died - quite quickly I expect under those conditions. Hence why the Astartes got upset about their treatment.

The canon is all over the place (its 40k ) and the Grey Knights new codex made it all much worse by bringing back the old fluff about killing / mindscubbing without thinking about how this affected everything else. If its just about GK's its slightly more palatable - although just why you need to do it is not clear to me as all they will be to most who encounter them is a specalist Astartes unit to kill Daemons.........hardly worth killing for.......

There are whole major canon (and highly plot protected) planets/ Astartes Chapters /individuals that know to varying degrees about Chaos and Daemons.

I think it's a fallacy to assume that there is such a thing as one universal policy on this in the IoM, much less one that is applied with coherence throughout the IoM.

The whole point of the IoM is that it's a rotten and corrupt Behemoth in-fighting as much as working together.

There almost certainly IS an odd Inquisitor out there who thinks that all Guardsman should be executed if they know about Chaos. There almost certainly also IS an ancient Imperial Decree on faded parchment from M36 or something with that policy.

But there is also Inquisitors who will likely disagree, as well as gazillions of other ancient Imperial Decrees of faded parchment saying all different and contradictory things.

And in the end, it all comes down to who will be able to make the call in different cases and different sectors.

I am sure that in some corner of the Imperium, an Imperial Guard Force actually is executed on the command of an Inquisitor after having fought Chaos. In another corner, noone even considers the idea. And in yet another, third corner of the IoM, a dead Inquisitor is found in the gutter after having voiced an idea in this direction.

It's the IoM after all. It's a lot of thing. But it sure as hell isn't logical, fair or coherent in the way it does things.

Surely the fact that Creed (and Kell) exist completely destroys the idea of the whole of Cadian forces being killed when exposed to Chaos. Pretty sure that in the cannon they're not dead.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

So there's definitely some inconsistency here.

Welcome to what 40k laughingly calls "canon". I think the idea of just killing any one who has seen a demon is well fething stupid. Sure if they show signs of going nuts or turning or something, but you don't kill a dog after its treed the racoon. I always see it as watched( that is the commissars freaking job), but otherwise nothing.

 Zweischneid wrote:
I think it's a fallacy to assume that there is such a thing as one universal policy on this in the IoM, much less one that is applied with coherence throughout the IoM.

The whole point of the IoM is that it's a rotten and corrupt Behemoth in-fighting as much as working together.

There almost certainly IS an odd Inquisitor out there who thinks that all Guardsman should be executed if they know about Chaos. There almost certainly also IS an ancient Imperial Decree on faded parchment from M36 or something with that policy.

But there is also Inquisitors who will likely disagree, as well as gazillions of other ancient Imperial Decrees of faded parchment saying all different and contradictory things.

And in the end, it all comes down to who will be able to make the call in different cases and different sectors.

I am sure that in some corner of the Imperium, an Imperial Guard Force actually is executed on the command of an Inquisitor after having fought Chaos. In another corner, noone even considers the idea. And in yet another, third corner of the IoM, a dead Inquisitor is found in the gutter after having voiced an idea in this direction.

It's the IoM after all. It's a lot of thing. But it sure as hell isn't logical, fair or coherent in the way it does things.

This.

Also, re: Grey Knights, I think we need to remember how exceedingly rare their appearances are SUPPOSED to be. They appear a lot on the battlefield for totally non-fluff related reasons, and I think that this can skew peoples' perception. But the chance of anyone encountering a Grey Knight is infinitesimal, and surviving such an encounter, given the types of situations GK are inserted into is even less likely. So I could see the mind wiping/execution in the case of GK encounters.

 -Loki- wrote:

In the GG books, they show extreme distaste for all things Chaos, and even find it hard to speak the gods names (Caffran couldn't say Khorne without dry wretching in Ghostmaker), but they know of the Chaos gods and daemons.

Must make it really difficult to order corn on the cob down at the Cracker Barrel.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

In the GG books, they show extreme distaste for all things Chaos, and even find it hard to speak the gods names (Caffran couldn't say Khorne without dry wretching in Ghostmaker), but they know of the Chaos gods and daemons.

Must make it really difficult to order corn on the cob down at the Cracker Barrel.

This shouldn't be funny but it really is.

Abnett has admitted that he doesn't really care about previously established fluff and doesn''t take it into account when he writes his stories, hence the term "The Danverse".

I thought it's called Abnettverse! D:

But yes, people need to be aware that the 40k franchise does not promulgate a consistent image throughout all its publications. GW codices, BL novels, FW books, FFGs RPG - on some level, they all portray their own individual take on the setting. It's up to us to choose between them and adopt what we prefer for our own interpretation of the setting.

Sorry for being off topic, but I've been wanting to ask for a while now... Lynata; I notice your national flag changes back and fourth from UK to either Ireland or Italy, maybe? (can't tell if it's supposed to be red or orange, looks red to me). So how dose that work? Are you dual-nationality or just travel often, or both (meaning dakka knows from where you're logged in or something)? Just curious that your account keeps changing the flag, is all.

 Lynata wrote:
I thought it's called Abnettverse! D:

It's so inconsistent that it doesn't even have an established name.

 Lynata wrote:
I thought it's called Abnettverse! D:

But yes, people need to be aware that the 40k franchise does not promulgate a consistent image throughout all its publications. GW codices, BL novels, FW books, FFGs RPG - on some level, they all portray their own individual take on the setting. It's up to us to choose between them and adopt what we prefer for our own interpretation of the setting.

Very hard- everybody uses what ever favors their faction at best and people tend to stick to the facts which suits them best....so that's why some threads tend to be pointless....Maybe it was better when we were sticking to the codex and imagination + beer bar was internet forum...now we are just hiting each other with quotes from different resources...

 kronk wrote:
In the Emperor's Gift, knowledge of Daemons outside of Astartes and the Inquisition is verboten.

That's a bit of a misnomer. The common citizen knows that daemons exist. They just don't know anything AT ALL about them aside from old wives tales.

DarthMarko wrote:Very hard- everybody uses what ever favors their faction at best and people tend to stick to the facts which suits them best....so that's why some threads tend to be pointless....Maybe it was better when we were sticking to the codex and imagination + beer bar was internet forum...now we are just hiting each other with quotes from different resources...

There's some truth to that. It would be less of an issue if everybody just accepted the lack of consistency (for then all we could argue about would be personal preferences) - but I have a feeling the urban myth of a "canon" is still too ingrained in the community, and keeps confusing a lot of newcomers in particular. The way the fans deal with it is worse than the relative lack of common ground itself, and surely not what GW intended back then when they came up with this "laissez-faire" approach.

Anfauglir wrote:Sorry for being off topic, but I've been wanting to ask for a while now... Lynata; I notice your national flag changes back and fourth from UK to either Ireland or Italy, maybe? (can't tell if it's supposed to be red or orange, looks red to me). So how dose that work? Are you dual-nationality or just travel often, or both (meaning dakka knows from where you're logged in or something)? Just curious that your account keeps changing the flag, is all.

lol - sorry for the confusion. I'm sometimes posting from out of my office, and I guess we're using a UK proxy or something. Whenever I'm posting from home, I've got the Ireland flag. Bureaucracywise my nationality still is German.

The problem with canon is that it's as impossible to say that it doesn't exist as it is to say that it does. Human beings have a natural tendency to "sort things out" so that it all flows together. Thus, the notion that "everything is canon and nothing is" is simply anathema to how we think.

Furthermore, the actual idea of "canon" is, by nature, relative. There is no such thing as "official canon", even in the Star Wars universe. Terms such as "PIS" and "CIS" are reflections of that. So when Games Workshop tries to cop-out and say that "there is no such thing as canon", the fanbase ignores them, just as much as comic book fans ignore Marvel when they say that Wolverine and can go toe to toe with the Hulk, or how Star Wars fans pretend Jar Jar Binks doesn't exist.

 Lynata wrote:
lol - sorry for the confusion. I'm sometimes posting from out of my office, and I guess we're using a UK proxy or something. Whenever I'm posting from home, I've got the Ireland flag. Bureaucracywise my nationality still is German.

Ahhh, I see. Well, now I know. Cheers!