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Not the game, just from that CC phase.

 Gloomfang wrote:

"If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a LD test or suffer instant death"

Does that mean that you can only attack one model at a time with boneswords as it doesn't specify unit

I guess this is wrong?

3 Tyranids all with boneswords

1st: Hits wounds once and doesn't save - 1 LD check
2nd: Hits wounds once saves - no LD check
3rd Hits Wounds twice and doesn't save either - 1 LD test

So you would take 2 LD checks for the three unsaved wounds or would you take 1 LD and if failed you would lose both?

 Gloomfang wrote:
@DR when does "one or more" end in your opinion?

One per Init Step.
Once per aussault phase.
Once per player tur.
Once per game turn.
Once per game?

They really should have a better FAQ for this.

I would go with one per init step. Yes, it does say in close combat, but IMO that is letting you know that if a tyrant with a bone sword shoots me, the bonesword effects don't trigger.

-Matt

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Gloomfang wrote:

"If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword, it must immediately pass a LD test or suffer instant death"

Does that mean that you can only attack one model at a time with boneswords as it doesn't specify unit

I guess this is wrong?

3 Tyranids all with boneswords

1st: Hits wounds once and doesn't save - 1 LD check
2nd: Hits wounds once saves - no LD check
3rd Hits Wounds twice and doesn't save either - 1 LD test

I think Rice's 3 options makes the most sense.
What if two 'nids in different "I" steps both hit with bone swords? Would the first one be the only one to cause the LD check then? A tyranid prime at I5 and a warrior at I4 both wound the same model for example. Only one test? Doesn't make any sense then as the basic warriors sword becomes useless (well still no armor saves of course).
Or what if model with twin boneswords hits and one with only one sword? The test taken is differently so would they both affect in that case?
And the wording in the codex does say from "a Tyranid with a bonesword", not tyranids with boneswords, so that seems to call for a model by model basis for testing. (Would that not be an example of Codex specific vs. BRB?)

ah64pilot5 wrote:
I think Rice's 3 options makes the most sense.

I should have been clearer here, say all are just run of the mill Warriors with boneswords, so all hitting at the same initiative.

It would seem rather pointless to only have 1 effect for 3 separate weapons or if it is for all 3, not very fair on the defending persons side. I guess it doesn't make much difference for single wounded models but for a unit of multiple wounds I guess it makes the difference.

 DeathReaper wrote:

You allocate the wounds at the same time (even though you do it sequentially, It is all happening at the same initiative step) so you assess if the model has suffered one or more wounds, and if it has already tested it fulfills the condition of suffering one or more wounds from boneswords.

Now, that rule has resolved. It is over. Time to move onto whatever happens next...
and if it suffers more wounds, you have already suffered one and now you are suffering more, so you no longer need to test.

This process is untrue. If you take this logic and apply it to other rules you will see that it is. The bonesword rule does not put a limit (per turn, this phase, etc) on the LD tests.

Did the model suffer "one or more" wounds. Yes.. then it tests.. You can effectively remove the "or more" from the rule because there is no way to assign a group of wounds at once to a model, other than maybe swarm/blasts.

But a model can be assigned one or more wounds in a round of CC.

So if the model has already tested for one or more wounds, they would not need to test again, as there are no rules that make them test twice, the rule only makes them test once.

So the process is true.

You actually allocate the wounds at the same time (even though you do it sequentially, It is all happening at the same initiative step)

same Initiative step = same time for wounds assigned. all the wounds are allocated at the Initiative (4 or whatever) step.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But a model can be assigned one or more wounds in a round of CC.

So if the model has already tested for one or more wounds, they would not need to test again, as there are no rules that make them test twice, the rule only makes them test once.

So the process is true.

You actually allocate the wounds at the same time (even though you do it sequentially, It is all happening at the same initiative step)

same Initiative step = same time for wounds assigned. all the wounds are allocated at the Initiative (4 or whatever) step.

So under your rules. If 3 BS wound one target from different warriors ther is only 1 test?

 DeathReaper wrote:
But a model can be assigned one or more wounds in a round of CC.

So if the model has already tested for one or more wounds, they would not need to test again, as there are no rules that make them test twice, the rule only makes them test once.

The rule states that the trigger is taking an unsaved wound. Since they are allocated singly then every allocation activates the trigger. There is nothing in the rule that states they only take 1 per phase, ini, etc.

So the process is true.

You actually allocate the wounds at the same time (even though you do it sequentially, It is all happening at the same initiative step)

same Initiative step = same time for wounds assigned. all the wounds are allocated at the Initiative (4 or whatever) step.

Again that logic doesn't apply in 6th. Otherwise I can soak multiple ID wounds (say from a GK force weapon) on 1 model before applying the ID rule.

Force Weapons are a different animal, and work a bit differently.

Stormbreed wrote:
So under your rules. If 3 BS wound one target from different warriors ther is only 1 test?

The actual rules say this, as the model has suffered one or more wounds, he takes one test.

 DeathReaper wrote:
But a model can be assigned one or more wounds in a round of CC.

A model can be assigned more than 1 wound over 5 rounds of combat too.
I don't see why you choose to draw the line at a single close combat phase.


-Matt

Because "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword..."

They are clearly talking about the CC in which the wounds were suffered.

The Context tells us this.

Ehhh, not to sure on that one DR. Context requires interpertation, which is subjective and thus out in a RAW discussion.

I may have to think that the Bonesword thing only works once in each combat(per enemy model effected)

Logistical nightmare for sure, but it appears to be RAW.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Ehhh, not to sure on that one DR. Context requires interpertation, which is subjective and thus out in a RAW discussion.

I may have to think that the Bonesword thing only works once in each combat(per enemy model effected)

Logistical nightmare for sure, but it appears to be RAW.

Yes, Once test per model per CC, as a model can suffer one or more wounds from a tyranid with a bonesword per CC phase.

Force Weapons are a different animal, and work a bit differently.

The both trigger off of the unsaved wound and are resolved after that trigger. Neither wait until the end of combat like you suggest to resolve.

Because "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword..."

They are clearly talking about the CC in which the wounds were suffered.

The Context tells us this.

In 5th you are 100% correct. However, now you would have to make up rules to fit your explanation as it would apply with multiple swords.

Yes, Once test per model per CC, as a model can suffer one or more wounds from a tyranid with a bonesword per CC phase.

If you take 1 wound have you taken "1 or more wounds"? Then you would take a test.

When you take the second wound, have you taken "1 or more" wounds? Then you would take a test.

The wounds carry the special rule and it applies each time the trigger condition is met.

If you take the second wound you've still taken 1 or more wounds.

 DeathReaper wrote:
"If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat..."
Clearly they mean the current turn's Close Combat phase.

Clearly? Why not per init phase? Why not per wound pool? Per unit? Per model? Per weapon type?

If you are making up limitations not listed in the rule, why arbitrarily pick 'per combat'?


It X happens, the effect triggers. If X happens *again*, then the effect triggers *again*

"one or more" is the trigger..... there is no rule that allows you to retroactively combine multiple occurences into a single occurence.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
If you take the second wound you've still taken 1 or more wounds.

And if the Ld test was at the end of the phase, or end of the init step, or end of the wound pool... you would have a point.

But the trigger is 'one or more', and the trigger happens *immediately*. If you get hit by a second wound, then the trigger criteria is met *again*, so the result happens *again*. Once the Ld Test is made, that occurence is over, it has been completely resolved and the game moves on. There is *not rule* that says that a second occurance is to be retroactively combined with a previous occurance.

Can you please point out a rule saying the trigger can only happen once a phase? Or once a init stage? or once a wound pool? or anything else?


If you suffer 1 wound... it triggers.

If you suffer 3 wounds, it triggers.

If you suffer 8 wounds, it triggers.

But once it triggers, it is over.... if it triggers a second time, the test happens a second time.

Except on the second trigger, you've still suffered "or more".

On the second trigger, you suffered "1 or more wounds" which triggers the LD test.

Why is the second wound not part of the "or more" from the first trigger?

You're making a leap I don't think you have permission to.

Fragile wrote:

Force Weapons are a different animal, and work a bit differently.

The both trigger off of the unsaved wound and are resolved after that trigger. Neither wait until the end of combat like you suggest to resolve.

I never suggested waiting til the end of combat.

Fragile wrote:
If you take 1 wound have you taken "1 or more wounds"? Then you would take a test.

When you take the second wound, have you taken "1 or more" wounds? Then you would take a test.

The wounds carry the special rule and it applies each time the trigger condition is met.

The underlined is where you are incorrect.

The second wound taken is "or more" as two wounds is one or more, and since you have already tested there is no need to test again. Condition already fulfilled.

If a GK with an activated Force weapon deals 2 wounds to a brood of 3 Carnifex how many die ?

Fragile wrote:
If a GK with an activated Force weapon deals 2 wounds to a brood of 3 Carnifex how many die ?

What does this have to do with Boneswords?

Because it is the exact same application.

Fragile wrote:
Because it is the exact same application.

It is?
I've read the Force rule a few times and I don't recall the words "or more" in it. I could be wrong though.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds in close combat from a Tyranid with a bonesword..."

They are clearly talking about the CC in which the wounds were suffered.

The Context tells us this.

Ah, no it doesn't. All it tells us is if you suffer wound(s) in close combat, take a test. Taking 1 hit at Initiative 10 and another at Initiative 1 is just as unrestricted as taking one hit this phase, and another next close combat phase.

Please point out the context that forces grouping into a single combat phase, while excluding both multiple combat phases and excluding multiple groupings at different initiative steps.
I don't see how you can say, "oh, I already took a wound a little while ago, so I don't have to test again", but a little while longer (next close combat phase) is too long and now we start testing all over again.

Once per phase, once per init step, once per combat, once per game. They all work, and none of them are specified in the rules.

"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test"

Pg 37.

Right, "If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved Wounds" Vs. "If a model suffers one or more unsaved wounds"

Two different things.

Fragile wrote:
"If a Psyker inflicts one or more unsaved 'Wounds with a Force Weapon, he can immediately choose to activate it by expending a Warp Charge point and taking a Psychic test"

Pg 37.

You're right, those words are there. Sorry.
Completely different context and therefore decidedly not the exact same application.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Because it is the exact same application.

It is?
I've read the Force rule a few times and I don't recall the words "or more" in it. I could be wrong though.

Nemesis Force Weapons are also different from normal Force Weapons.

Normal force weapons make 1 wound cause instant death. Nemesis Weapons make ALL the wounds cause Instant Death, including those that follow at a later inititive step.