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Fateweaver has a 3+ rerollable Invuln.

Even if he does do a faceplant, the chance of damage being caused is minimal.

The only issue might be getting caught in assault, which can be solved by making sure he isn't too close to enemy melee units.

Templar, while he has a re-rollable 3++, its still not good enough to make him last when someone wants him dead.

12 saves forced.
4 saves failed and need to be re-rolled.
1 save failed.

Granted its still bloody good, but once hes on the ground he can be dragged into assault.
Does not matter if you try to keep him away from it, you need that re-roll bubble near your units, so it will be fairly close.

Also, some units tend to be pretty quick.
Wouldnt be the 1st time ive seen people pin someone in combat with a suicide unit simply to buy them time for a stronger one to join combat.

 Jackal wrote:
Templar, while he has a re-rollable 3++, its still not good enough to make him last when someone wants him dead.

12 saves forced.
4 saves failed and need to be re-rolled.
1 save failed.

Granted its still bloody good, but once hes on the ground he can be dragged into assault.
Does not matter if you try to keep him away from it, you need that re-roll bubble near your units, so it will be fairly close.

Also, some units tend to be pretty quick.
Wouldnt be the 1st time ive seen people pin someone in combat with a suicide unit simply to buy them time for a stronger one to join combat.

Yes, Fateweaver is a fire magnet, but I'm ok with that. Every shot sent his way is one less they're using to shoot my Flamers and Screamers, which IMO are a much bigger threat.

 undertow wrote:
Yes, Fateweaver is a fire magnet, but I'm ok with that. Every shot sent his way is one less they're using to shoot my Flamers and Screamers, which IMO are a much bigger threat.

Which is why a smart player never shoots as Fatey unless there's absolutely no other target!



@Jackal: I was refering mainly to the 'Tzeentch Flying Circus' as being an idiot's build despite Grey Templar trying to imply it's a competitive build. (because it's really not)

Outside of 2k or higher games, you simply can't even come close to putting enough ground forces on the table when you're spending over half your pts on 4-5 FMC's. It's a list that'll roflstomp people who are easily psyched-out by "oh crap fliers!!!", and try to bring them down while still airborn with things like lascannons.
But considering how easy it is to simply force gorunding tests, (which Fatey doesn't protect against with his re-rolls), it's a bad idea to try out against other competitive lists with the meta shifting ever more towards heaps of basic guns AND the resurgance of multi-shot weapon upgrades to take more advantage of snapfire/overwatch.

For their insane cost, FMC's only work well as a support to a much larger main force. Trying to run a flier list with them is suicide since they routinely cost at least 200+ points a pop to be worthwhile!
Hell, even just running Fatey + 2 Tzeentch Princes with the typical Breath + Bolt is still costing you a whopping 793pts for just 3 models. I'd *never* do something that silly outside of a big game, simply because we still need our highly overcosted yet squishy as feth Troops to hold objectives. (not to mention, a unit or two who can reliably hold stuff up in assaults, AND anti-vehicle, etc...)

I do agree that FMC spam gets points heavy.

Basic prince your looking at:

Prince: MoT, Wings, breath, bolt - The upgrades alone nearly cost what 2 basic princes cost.

Also, characters like skarbrand have now dropped a bit IMO.
With the nerf of the +1 I from FC and hellblades being AP3, it seems the only way you can really run him is with large blocks of slaanesh troops.
And thats a case of rush in, smash a unit apart in a single turn and move on, but you then take a turn of being shot to pieces before you can do so.

Ill be honest, there are only a few units i run now in every game.

1: Kairos (over 1k points, if not, scribes)

2: Flamers - allways used them, the massive boost just made me take more now to the same points value they were.

3: Screamers - allways used them before, but the points increase is a pain.
AP2 is a saving grace now though as apart from MC's, they are the only models that ignore all armour in CC with every attack.

The old fate crushers lists have died out alot since AP3 really does not work all that well and flyers burn through it.

Tally lists got nerfed by new FNP, and also cant hit flyers.

I now find myself once again back with a mono-tzeentch list like when i 1st started daemons.

4 Basic units of 5 horrors with bolt is allways a nice base, then i throw in a character and start using screamers and flamers to drag the points up.

Right now I tend to typically run a mainly Tzeentch list with;

Chariot Herald w/Icon, Breath & Soul Devourer. (unique - I know!)

Disc Herald w/Bolt, WaL, MoS + 6 Flamers

2x 9 Horrors inclu Bolt for the S8/ap1 anti-termie shot

18x Horrors w/full command + Changeling.

6x 'counts as' Plaguebearers to hold an objective.

5x Screamers

Soul Grinder w/big blasty shot!


Flyers are a PITA, but I just don't feel like it's worth it right now to try and really gear for them since we don't it that well at all... If I know I'm going to be facing some flyers, I'll ally in a Big Mek + 15 Lootas for now, and likely swap them out for a Helldrake from the new CSM codex.

On the other hand, I have yet to really lose out on a strait-up gunfight outside of crap dice! No one expects that huge Horror unit, and it takes a silly amount of firepower to deal with it. Run them alongside the Soul Grinder, and it helps to deter the thought of charging into them.
The chariot Herald is built to take-out small units all on his own such as Longfangs/Devs.

But I do need to add-in my other unit of 9 Flamers!


I'm can't wait to see what we get in our new codex though! At least we'll likely see our own flyer, (or hopefully some slightly cheaper FMC's), and/or a skyfire unit to help us deal with the likes of IG & Necron flyer spam.

Kairos - 333

7 flamers - 161
7 flamers - 161
7 flamers - 161
10 horrors: Changeling - 175
10 horrors - 170
5 horrors: Bolt - 95
5 horrors: bolt - 95

6 screamers - 150

Thats pretty much what ive been running at 1.5k
However, ive been tempted to swap things about more.
Flamers only real weakness is CC, and who wants to take 7D3 auto hits from breath of chaos for assaulting them?

More than likely going to drop kairos though, swap him for scribes and a chariot/disc herald then boost up the screamer unit a bit more.

Or maybe even run two units of 5 Screamers for double the anti-TEQ fun?!

What you guys think about this IG + Daemon list?

1395 Pts – Imperial Guard Roster

4 Company Command Squad, 200 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Company Commander (Melta Bombs)
1 Astropath
1 Officer of the Fleet
1 Chimera

9 Veteran Squad, 155 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

9 Veteran Squad, 155 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

9 Veteran Squad, 155 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

9 Veteran Squad, 155 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

9 Veteran Squad, 155 pts (Meltagun x3)
1 Veteran Sergeant
1 Chimera (Heavy Flamer)

1 Vendetta Gunship Squadron, 140 pts
1 Vendetta (Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2)

1 Vendetta Gunship Squadron, 140 pts
1 Vendetta (Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2)

1 Vendetta Gunship Squadron, 140 pts
1 Vendetta (Heavy Bolter Sponsons x2)

Subtotal: 1395

Chaos Daemon Allies

1 Lord of Change, 280 pts (Breath of Chaos, Bolt of Tzeentch, Soul Devourer)

1 Daemon Prince of Chaos, 240 pts (Daemonic Flight; Mark of Tzeentch; Bolt of Tzeentch; Soul Devourer; Breath of Chaos)

5 Pink Horrors of Tzeentch, 85 pts

Subtotal: 605

Total: 2000.

The Daemon Prince model was what drew me to Daemons in the first place, so I try to use them when possible. I love the way the look on the table, and I like the way they play. I'm willing to give up a little overall competitiveness to get these units into my lists. I don't run a flying circus though.

At the following points levels, this is what I run, MC-wise:
1000: one, usually Kairos. I could be talked out of this one, but I really like him and it's worked well. Got third in a 45 person tournament at our local bunker last weekend.
1500: two, one of which is Kairos, still trying to decide between a Bloodthirster, Lord of Change or Daemon Prince for the other.
2000: three, perhaps four. Two Greater Daemons (one is Kairos), and two DPS (wings, bolt, breath, maybe iron hide, MoT)
2500: five. same as at 2000, but +1 DP. Won a 2500 point tournament at the local battle bunker about a month ago with this. Also had a Skyshield Pad here.

The rest of the army is pretty standard. One largish unit of Plaguebearers to hold objectives. One largish unit of Horrors, and a couple small ones, one with the Changeling. Then as many Flamers and Screamers as I can fit.

Or maybe even run two units of 5 Screamers for double the anti-TEQ fun?!

21 flamers do that well enough
The screamers are there simply for the big vehicles with high hp that would take too long to glance them to death.



Dont get me wrong, princes are amazing.
But the real issue is the points cost.
Ironhide and wings is a must.
Now, you can take away hide if you have MOT, but its still not as good.

Thats 170 points for hide and wings on a prince.
Throw a mark on him and your looking at 200 points.

Now, if your going combat heavy, a thirster is only 250, so not a great jump in points.

If your going shooty, then you might aswell get a lord of change as he has bolt and gaze as standard.
He also has a better save.

I find that if im going to 2,000+ points, ill just double up on the chart and take 3-4 greater daemons.
They work out at maybe the same cost or cheaper in some cases, they are much more effective at the roles you want them in, and they just hit soo much harder.

Also, if i throw a prince and a thirster on the table, which one would you shoot 1st?
Greater daemons seem to worry people, so when you place 3 thirsters down they have a few issues with them.
Granted they are easy enough to kill with a bit of thinking, but it still panics people.

Experiment 626 wrote:
Well, we need;
a) Some balancing to counter the GK disaster that can easily auto-win vs us.

b) A re-designing of our entire deployment mechanic. Basically, GW needs to feth-off with the stupid 'roll for which wave comes in first!' crap.
Sure it's cool & randomly chaotic and all, but it means we either have to build boring redundancies into our lists to counter that, or else we run with it, and get screwed by the dice in 33% of our games.

c) We need some flavour. After 5 years, we're getting pretty damn stale! At least Eldar & Tau can play around with a helluva lot more unit combos than we can... Sisters players will know what it means to have only a handful of actual unit entries!

d) Most importantly, Daemons is also a Fantasy release!!!
GW can keep cranking out primarily 40k books by shooting us to the 'front of the line' as allows them to pawn-off the release as a primarily Fantasy release without slowing down 40k production one bit!
If GW did a release schedual like; CSM's ---> DA's ---> Tau ---> Elard, those poort Fantasy players get the ultiment shaft. Slipping us in after DA's but before the xenos means the Fantasy players get a big month to celebrate before waiting for potentially another two 40k books to clear the way before they get a release again.

a) Balancing to counter a GK disaster that is exceedingly rare and not going to happen in most games? Yeah real dire need there.

b) Suck it up and be a man. You get the uber cool rock hard stuff and kick ass, or you get the least desired part and prove what your worth is as a general. Hardly worth whining about.

c) Ummm most units in the SoB list use *the same minis* hence it gets boring playing/painting them after a while. Every daemon unit is unique minis and can be used in myriad combinations. EVERY unit type in the list has AT LEAST 4 different options available, and others have many more than that. Daemon players are SPOILED for options in their lists. You can also customize based on the deities you want your force to follow too. All in one, single God, odd combos, whatever. Heck daemons even just got those new mini rules updates in White Dwarf. To me that makes it seem more likely they will not see a new book for a while at this stage.

d) Daemons may be part a fantasy release, but the rules in the different games are not identical and putting out 2 similar books simultaneously is not going to take the same amount of time as putting out 1 book.

Meanwhile Tau are stuck with overpriced, yet weak units. One of their commanders is in a big massive combat suit that is actually less protective and effective than a single suit of space marine power armor, and the commander inside has worse stats than a baseline space marine. Their other command option needs to be seen by the army to be effective, which then makes him a target and since his stats suck so much he will die pretty fast and can make the entire army run off the table when he dies. Add in that they have *2* troops choices, and most of their force levels have very minimal options available for unit variety and the Tau need a new codex MUCH sooner than Daemons do.

Eldar are not as bad off, but their gear is still stupidly expensive compared to much newer books. Add in that their vehicle's primary defense, holofields, gave their vehicles more survivability than by making hits into glances. With the introduction of hull points, holofields only keep the vehicles from getting one shotted as easily, as 2 to 3 hits will just destroy them now regardless of penetration or not. Eldar do have a lot of variety of troops available, but even their troop listings are pretty limited. The best thing Eldar have going for them is that wraithlords are monstrous creatures and not vehicles, but their pricing could definitely be brought better into line.

The simple fact is that daemons have a robust codex, that requires some skill to play effectively. It has numerous options for ALL unit types (HQ, troops, elites, fast attack and heavy). It is flexible, adaptable and combines rock solid hard to move units (nurgle), fast lightning strike units (slaanesh), hard hitting close combat specialists (khorne) and ranged capabilities (Tzeentch). Exactly what more do you want/need?

Skriker

Striker, your missing some key points here mate.

1: We do have some nice flavour, but mono god lists are restricted to just tzeentch if you want a semi-competative army.

2: Yes it does take skill to use, but no level of skill stops your preffered wave from comming in 2nd and leaving you a sitting duck.

3: Daemons got a massive nerf in 6th.
Overwatch killed off alot of combat units as a 5++ really does not do a great deal.
Shooting got a boost, combat got a nerf.
Guess which style daemons are?
Also, the basic hunting units were khorne, which was good until a few things.

*Assault distances are now not a safe thing, meaning you wont allways get where you need to be.
*Overwatch means you will usually lose 1/4 - 1/2 of a unit before you get into combat.
*Hellblades are now AP3, meaning you need to rely on rending or breath of chaos for termies. (or screamers, which got a points jump)

4: They are not robust.
Infact, they are about as fragile as DE, if not more so due to the waves.
You end up dropping in your units in bite size pieces for the enemy to pick apart.

5: What rock solid units do we have?
Nurgle now get nerfed via the new FNP, meaning we get a 5++ followed by a 5+ on FNP.

6: We have FMC's, but all for around 250 or so points, and they are the only anti-aircraft we have, so 3 of them makes up most of an army now just to make sure flyers can be killed.

7: Your saying about the unit variety (fast, tough, strong, ranged) but your missing the part about them also having a fatal flaw with it.

Slaanesh is fast, but they are made from glass.

Khorne are strong, but still have a nerfed weapon, low attacks and no initiative bonus from FC anymore.

Nurgle arent too tough anymore, they also cant fight thier way out of a wet paper bag.

Tzeentch is shooty, but gets pulled apart in combat.

We have the extremes of each option, but no middle ground unit to use.
They all have a good point, then a terrible one to go with it.


"Proving what your worth as a general" only works to a degree.
I could hand you a spoon and ask you to dig to china, it does not mean your useless if you cant, it simply means you can only do so much with what you have.

so you don't like anything that makes the codex fun....Noted.

I have 100 times more fun playing my nurgle list win/lose/tie (it's mostly tie)

I've had a single plague bearer take on an entire Tau army's worth of shooting and live to take an objective.

I've had an entire unit get hit with 80 bolter shots and take one wound.

BUT, I've had the other end too. Daemons are so up and down it's hilarious.

If you roll average Daemons can take on anyone in the game at the moment. If not, well.......those can be rough games lol.

You seem both confused and misinformed.

If i didnt like the amusement, i wouldnt play daemons anymore and i would join the IG or GK fanclub like most people have.

Ive heard people say alot of things that have happened in game, most of which seem to be 1/1,000,000 chances, but still happen.

If you roll average for daemons, they can play to an ok standard.
If they could "take anyone on" then the top placements in recent tournaments would have atleast 1 daemons army in them.


Daemons are not a competative army at the moment.
Granted they arent stupidly weak, but they also have a ton of flaws, only made worse by 6th.

Ok, so losing every game of 40k now makes it fun?
Granted, you play for fun, but you do still try and drag a win out of it.
And you say about "fun" yet you run a nurgle list?
You sit there, get assaulted, sit on an objective, get assaulted, and not alot else.
Simply cling to objectives and hope you take on the shooting.

 Jackal wrote:
You seem both confused and misinformed.
And you say about "fun" yet you run a nurgle list?
You sit there, get assaulted, sit on an objective, get assaulted, and not alot else.
Simply cling to objectives and hope you take on the shooting.

You could pretty much simplify any army down to it's basic's to make it sound boring like this.

But if it was both entirely boring, and entirely non-competetive, no-one would play it. It's a very different flavour to Tzeentch armies, but it's a matter of tastes. I, for instance, prefer assaulting armies, and even find ways to play a nurgle army agressively. A nurgle assault army is less about racing into combat as fast as possible, but herding unit's into traps, blocking the enemy, and generally being a shambling zombie horde. That, to me is fun. I like feeling like not only do I have a fairly large force, but it just does not seem to die, and I like watching people panic as my troops inch closer and closer to their precious shooters, barely losing anything.

As I say, to each their own, and daemons have more than enough flavors for there to be something for everyone.

 Jackal wrote:

3: Daemons got a massive nerf in 6th.
Overwatch killed off alot of combat units as a 5++ really does not do a great deal.
Shooting got a boost, combat got a nerf.
Guess which style daemons are?
Also, the basic hunting units were khorne, which was good until a few things.

*Assault distances are now not a safe thing, meaning you wont allways get where you need to be.
*Overwatch means you will usually lose 1/4 - 1/2 of a unit before you get into combat.
*Hellblades are now AP3, meaning you need to rely on rending or breath of chaos for termies. (or screamers, which got a points jump)

I flat out disagree that Daemons have gotten a massive nerf with 6th Ed. At worst they're no more competitive than they were. Between the FMC changes and the White Dwarf update I feel like I win more games by a much larger margin than I ever did in 5th. I went to a 2500 point tournament last month at the local GW Bunker and tabled (or had them concede by turn 4) all three of my opponents, even when I didn't get my preferred wave.

Overwatch is more of a joke than anything else. I've never lost 1/4 to 1/2 of a unit to overwatch fire, nor have I ever seen it happen to anyone else, unless they were only charging with two one wound models. Yes, overwatch from flamer-equipped units can hurt, but mostly it's a non-issue. Or at least it is for me, as most of my assaulting is done by Greater Daemons and Princes.

I agree that the random assault distance can suck, but the stuff I'm assaulting with (FMCs and Screamers) moves so fast that I think I've only managed to not get in combat once in about 40 games.

I agree with the Hellblade AP3 comment, that and the change to Furious Charge killed off Fatecrusher, which was really one of the only viable builds we had in 5th. But we were given buffed Screamers that are cheaper, faster. It seems to me that we have more variety and fun builds that we did before.

I'm having a lot more fun in 6th with my Daemons. For me, the sky is not falling.

Competitively, Daemons have changed from a Fatecrusher/Fatefiend build to a mainly Fateweaver + Flamers & Screamers. But then, I find that every single is boring as feth at the so-called 'competitve tounament' level as most lists simply boil down to "spam units 'X/Y/Z' until you run out of pts."

Overall, we've lost as much as we've gained.
For example, Deep Striking got safer and reserves come in faster, but now our predominantely assault army has random charge distances and Prescience to deal with.
Meanwhile, Slaanesh & Tzeentch units overall got buffed with the rules update, but Nurgle & Khorne took it on the chops in comparison.

We're by no means unplayable, but we're still the hardest army in the game to play well, and we're still the only army that can be boned during our deployment! That rolling for waves bit NEEDS to just go...
For example, an Eppi list absolutely requires it's main character on the table right from turn 1. Or against an opponent who's hiding in transports, you must get your 'metal-bhawks-opener' units into play right away. Against a horde list, you want your anti-horde units out ASAP! to thin down their numbers, etc, etc...

Not getting the right units into play for a turn or two can typically be utterly crippling. We're the only army who have such a dumb mechanic as well, making it even more of a disadvantage! Imagine if a Space Marine player has to roll a 3+ during their deployment to get their transported units in a multi-objective game?! Or how about if a Tyranid army has to roll a 3+ to get their Synapse on the board turn 1?!? It's stupid and it's nothing more than a special rule for the sake of having a special rule.

You can mitigate it slightly with how you put together your list and the waves, but I agree it's the most annoying part of the book.

 Jackal wrote:
Striker, your missing some key points here mate.

"Proving what your worth as a general" only works to a degree.
I could hand you a spoon and ask you to dig to china, it does not mean your useless if you cant, it simply means you can only do so much with what you have.

You are convinced that daemons are not worth it now. I disagree. Your weaknesses of the various units is intentional to convince people to play more balanced forces instead of taking all single God forces all the time. Hardly a real weakness. Daemons have always been about extremes. They are direct manifestations of the powers of their deities, so of course they are not going to all be basic generalist type units. They are going to fit within those expected extremes and do. Because of this mono-God armies have *always* been and will continue to be even after a new codex, unbalanced and imperfect.

I'm also sorry, but playing with your undesired half of your army a 3rd of the time is not the same as trying to dig to China with a spoon. It is more akin to digging to China with a different shovel that they one you prefered. If you foolishly completely stack allyour forces so that your choice is between a ditch digger and a spoon, then you *Deserve* to get screwed when you hit that 33% moment. If you can't be bothered to think tactically before splitting up your forces into two halves, how is that a fault of the codex deployment rules? If you can't be bothered to balance out the split of your army that is no one's fault but yours. It is a simple matter of making sure you at least have defense units to hold the line in each half of your force to limit the impact of the vagries of fate on the deployment dice roll. I have played plenty of games with my daemons and gotten the half I didn't want, and still won the games without issue because I split my forces smartly between the two halves. It is such a simple thing to do I just completely fail to understand why people get so upset about this rule. The rule doesn't require one to split their army in stupid and unbalanced ways, people CHOOSE to do that themselves and therefore are at fault for getting in trouble when the roll at the beginning doesn't go their way. This is so easily mitigated by even the smallest amount of forethought.

Despite your list of complaints, the chaos codex is still a decent book and really only needs some minor tweaking to fit within the new rules paradigm. Tau and Eldar aren't now multiple rulesets behind in codex time. Tau is one of the most boring and limited codex books out there. That title used to be owned by Necrons, but now they are much more varied and interesting. Daemons also just got some tweaks in the mini book from White Dwarf a couple months back. I am quite content to let those who desperately need a new codex get one before a Daemons update. A codex is not just about building the "perfect" army for me. It is about building varied and interesting forces to play in a variety of games. The daemons codex has that ability in spades. Tau have next to none...

Skriker

I'd like it if we could buy an upgrade for our more expencive units (Like daemon princes, large HQ's, E.X) like that of space marine drop pods, and some big deep striking tyranids, that is, they can still scatter, but if it scatters onto something impassable that would cause a mishap, you reduce the scatter by the minimum to avoid it.

This would serve as a good insurance for larger points creatures, and I find it silly that Tyranid's and space marines should be better at deep striking than the one army, that -has- to do it. :S

I'd sort of like something like that, but Mawloc style.