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I see your points, thank you.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought an Exterminator with PC sponsons costs exactly the same as a naked Executioner.
The main problem with the Executioner IMO is the Hydra, which is better AA and has practically the same weapon and range for half the price. Sure, its armor is poor, but you know, the price tag is so attractive.
How about an exterminator with HB sponsons? All AP4, and can mow down all non-MEQ infantry and light vehicles.

The Executioner certainly draws a lot of fine, but that is why you have AV 14. In the last two games i've played its racked up a tally of (both necron opponents) Oberon, Imotek, 10 Deathmarks, 12 scarabs, 5 Heavy Destroyers. It was killed in the second game when my opponent deepstriked a 30 count Necron Warrior squad in front of it and gaussed it to death.

I was then able to use a Fireball PCS and wipe out that squad as it was his last troop choice.

Its the best IG tank IMO at the moment. Its excellent light vehicle, anti heavy- light infantry.

Problem I have with the Ordnance tanks now is I want a weight of shots when I field my Leman Russ. Single shot tanks just don't get it done for me.

But Hydras not having "Intercepter" hurt them as a general choice.
If you knew you are going to be going up against lots of fliers, sure the Hydra is a more solid choice.
But I think the Exterminator is a better all comers list choice.

I've been using exterminators with HB sponsons for a couple of years, and they are great at surviving (because nobody shoots at them) but they can go either way on how much they kill. The large number of dice means you can get a lot of variance, so sometimes they're on fire, and sometimes they do hardly anything because a space marine player's armor save dice are hot. The plasma cannons will give me something that I know will be a threat to everybody.

I assumed that if you take an executioner, you would also take the PC sponsons. One weapon destroyed result on a naked executioner has a 50/50 chance of making your 190 point tank nearly useless.

I used both hydras and exterminators throughout 5th edition and found the exterminator *much* more survivable, as well as more mobile since it can move and still fire all 4 shots. Now that hydras can only take snapshots against targets that aren't flyers/skimmers, they're not the bargain they used to be, and are basically useless for anti(ground)-tank and anti-infantry fire.

My only problem with "sponsonhammer" is I think we shouldn't count on both sponsons getting to fire.
More often than not, my targets tend to be on one side or the other.

That said, I love the idea of an Exterminator with plasma sponsons. If you lose the turret, it still has teeth, as Flavius Infernus said.

 Happygrunt wrote:

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'm sorry, but where does it say that if a Russ fires ordnance everything else has to snap shot? I thought the whole reason behind giving the Russ the Heavy rule in the latest IG FAQ was to allow the Russ to fire its main cannon and all other weapons normally.

Can someone point out where it says this?

Look in your rulebook about ordnance and tanks. Pretty much spells it out.

Just in case someone else having trouble finding this, p71.

Since Russes are no longer lumbering behemoths, but rather normal heavy vehicles, the classic Battle Tank and Demolisher have taken a hit because they are now relegated to single shots.

In the past, you could improve the tanks' damage output by adding hull weapons and sponsons. Now, however, if you fire the main gun you cannot shoot template/blast weapons, and any heavy bolter/lascannon shots hit only on a 6. Paying that many points for a single shot does not appeal to me (one reason why I never favored Demolishers, and wished I could field Thunderer Siege tanks).

I can't believe people are talking up the Vanquisher! The reason to buy a Russ is not only its damage output (since point for point, artillery is way killier), but also its survivability and utility as a bullet sponge. So if your opponent isn't shooting at it, you wasted the points you paid for the heavy armor. The catch is, the tank has to put out enough damage to be scary enough to shoot at. A Vanquisher is simply not that scary. With the bare-bones Pask and a hull lascannon (because you're not paying 155 points for a single shot that misses 50% of the time, right?), you're paying 220 points for two admittedly solid AT shots. It's simply unnecessary to spend so many points on a dedicated anti-heavy tank unit in an army that is up to its eyeballs in massed autocannons, lascannons, ordnance, and melta. Your opponent will have way more serious threats to be concerned with, like vendettas, artillery, and fist-fulls of special weapons thrown in their face.

So that leaves the Executioner and Exterminator, which incidentally were my two favorite Russes in 5th edition.

Nothing kills stuff quite like five plasma cannon templates, and in 6th edition the Executioner unbelievably became even deadlier. With the increased value of 2+ armor saves and large units on foot, the high S, AP2 and large surface area covered is pure gold. Additionally, it can now more reliably pile quite a few S7 hits on vehicles, since all parts of the blast templates deal full damage. What's more, it actually benefited from losing 'lumbering behemoth' for 'heavy vehicle' quite a bit, since it can now fire all of its shots even while moving. There is a price to pay for such power, however, and that's the threat of overheating. You will lose a hull point a little over ~15% of the time when you fire off a full salvo. However, even if the tank blows itself up after three turns, that's 15 plasma blasts your opponent had to eat and it was probably still worth it.

The Exterminator also likes the fact that it can now keep moving while putting out a ridiculous amount of shots. I honestly feel Pask is right at home on this tank. With just a hull lascannon, he has only a slightly smaller chance to pull a hull point on AV14 than he would in a Vanquisher (~75% vs. 83%), while being absolutely murderous to monstrous creatures, AV≤13, anything out of power armor, or really anything that needs volume of fire to take down. The torrent of fire approach also makes heavy bolters a more natural fit, since they can also glance AV12. Hell, even the stubber can glance AV11, although now you're looking at 245 points.

Speaking of torrents of fire and ridiculous point-costs, with AV - not being such a serious drawback anymore, I find myself looking at the Punisher. 210 points for 29 S5 shots is hefty, but it's also a lot of dakka. In bigger games (2500+), I might even be tempted to throw Pask in there.

Demolisher is still great. And don't worry about the not being able to move more than six inches. No one really did anyway. Exterminator and Punishers with heavy bolters all around are a good run too.

I'm just not seeing the case for the exterminator. I mean, I guess I can see the exterminator as a decent all-rounder, but if you're up to your eyeballs in autocannons why pay more points to get a measly 4 TL shots? If you need Str 7, go with the Executioner, and get some AP 2 templates for your trouble.

The exterminator isn't great at anti-infantry either. 4 shots can only take down 4 models. Even shooting at it's intended target, infantry with a 4+ save, It's outdone by the punisher through sheer volume of fire. If you're in need of an all-rounder (that doesn't have plasma), take a punisher.

Seriously. The punisher cleans up swarms, obliterates light armor, and can put a dent in squads which have a good armor save due to sheer volume of fire. Put pask and two heavy bolter sponsons on the thing, and you've got dakka. When it doesn't have anything more appealing to shoot at, my punisher regularly drops 2 to 3 terminators a turn through the power of dakka. Heck, good ol' pask has made his points back in guants. The punisher is probably the most versatile tank second to the Executioner.

Granted, the punisher by itself isn't too appealing, but it's a tank that gets exponentially better with the more upgrades you throw on it.

 kestril wrote:
Granted, the punisher by itself isn't too appealing, but it's a tank that gets exponentially better with the more upgrades you throw on it.

See, for me anyway, that's the problem. I'd rather have more tanks, than 1 big point sink of a tank.
Hell, it's pricey before you start adding stuff.

Ah, I got ya, quantity is a quality of its own.

 Omegus wrote:
Since Russes are no longer lumbering behemoths, but rather normal heavy vehicles, the classic Battle Tank and Demolisher have taken a hit because they are now relegated to single shots.

In the past, you could improve the tanks' damage output by adding hull weapons and sponsons. Now, however, if you fire the main gun you cannot shoot template/blast weapons, and any heavy bolter/lascannon shots hit only on a 6. Paying that many points for a single shot does not appeal to me (one reason why I never favored Demolishers, and wished I could field Thunderer Siege tanks).

I can't believe people are talking up the Vanquisher! The reason to buy a Russ is not only its damage output (since point for point, artillery is way killier), but also its survivability and utility as a bullet sponge. So if your opponent isn't shooting at it, you wasted the points you paid for the heavy armor. The catch is, the tank has to put out enough damage to be scary enough to shoot at. A Vanquisher is simply not that scary. With the bare-bones Pask and a hull lascannon (because you're not paying 155 points for a single shot that misses 50% of the time, right?), you're paying 220 points for two admittedly solid AT shots. It's simply unnecessary to spend so many points on a dedicated anti-heavy tank unit in an army that is up to its eyeballs in massed autocannons, lascannons, ordnance, and melta. Your opponent will have way more serious threats to be concerned with, like vendettas, artillery, and fist-fulls of special weapons thrown in their face.

So that leaves the Executioner and Exterminator, which incidentally were my two favorite Russes in 5th edition.

Nothing kills stuff quite like five plasma cannon templates, and in 6th edition the Executioner unbelievably became even deadlier. With the increased value of 2+ armor saves and large units on foot, the high S, AP2 and large surface area covered is pure gold. Additionally, it can now more reliably pile quite a few S7 hits on vehicles, since all parts of the blast templates deal full damage. What's more, it actually benefited from losing 'lumbering behemoth' for 'heavy vehicle' quite a bit, since it can now fire all of its shots even while moving. There is a price to pay for such power, however, and that's the threat of overheating. You will lose a hull point a little over ~15% of the time when you fire off a full salvo. However, even if the tank blows itself up after three turns, that's 15 plasma blasts your opponent had to eat and it was probably still worth it.

The Exterminator also likes the fact that it can now keep moving while putting out a ridiculous amount of shots. I honestly feel Pask is right at home on this tank. With just a hull lascannon, he has only a slightly smaller chance to pull a hull point on AV14 than he would in a Vanquisher (~75% vs. 83%), while being absolutely murderous to monstrous creatures, AV≤13, anything out of power armor, or really anything that needs volume of fire to take down. The torrent of fire approach also makes heavy bolters a more natural fit, since they can also glance AV12. Hell, even the stubber can glance AV11, although now you're looking at 245 points.

Speaking of torrents of fire and ridiculous point-costs, with AV - not being such a serious drawback anymore, I find myself looking at the Punisher. 210 points for 29 S5 shots is hefty, but it's also a lot of dakka. In bigger games (2500+), I might even be tempted to throw Pask in there.

Pask has a 75% chance to glance AV14 in an Exterminator? That's impossible. Show the math please.
With Pask, if the VPBC hits, it's almost an auto-pen. And in my area people LOVE using LRs, even 500 pts lists have them. So yeah, the Vanquisher is indeed a big threat. Admittedly I have only used it in two games against SM, but it destroyed (or helped destroy) two LRs, a Vindicator, two Predators and a bunch of Rhinos in total. I may have been lucky, but I'd call that effective.