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Hey, I have a regular Russ kit and a demolisher kit, both assembled and painted nicely except for the turret and weapons, since I can't decide what variant to choose and which weapons to add to it. I was so tempted by the Demolisher at first, an AV14 Vindicator with side armor that might actually allow it to survive! Then I read the FAQ and noticed it has to snap fire all its other weapons if it fires its Demolisher Cannon, and even worse, it counts as Heavy so it can never ever move more than 6" per turn-combine that with the poor range and I seem to have lost interest. I'm currently thinking of modeling an Executioner and a LRBT/Vanquisher/Exterminator. Am I overreacting to the changes, or is the Demolisher really significantly worse than before?

Yes.

Vanquisher and Executioner are the new hotness for Leman Russes.

Don't take a Vanquisher without Pask, and don't take an Executioner without PC sponsons.

Eh, I'd still take a demolisher but without any weapon upgrades or sponsons.

s10, ap1 ordanance is still pretty awesome.

Not sure about the latter suggestion. Not only is it fantastically expensive for an already expensive tank, but it can be glanced by Gets Hot results, something that the Executioner cannon itself thankfully doesn't have.

 VikingScott wrote:
Eh, I'd still take a demolisher but without any weapon upgrades or sponsons.

s10, ap1 ordanance is still pretty awesome.

AP 2, but otherwise I agree.

Edit: referring to PC sponsons on executioner.

Bludbaff wrote:
Not sure about the latter suggestion. Not only is it fantastically expensive for an already expensive tank, but it can be glanced by Gets Hot results, something that the Executioner cannon itself thankfully doesn't have.

The odds of actually doing any real damage to yourself with plasma cannons are very long, like 8% if I remember correctly.

And yes, it is an expensive tank. Why is it expensive? Five plasma blasts will obliterate just about any unit in the game, not to mention do real damage to most light and medium vehicles.

There is no reason for any Guard player to leave home without an executioner anymore. They're the best multi-purpose tank in the game by a ridiculous margin.

Thanks for the comments! What I am afraid of is that the Demolisher may not be able to fire for 2-3 turns because it's so slow, meaning that most other Russ variants would be more likely to "refund" their points value. Could anyone elaborate on this point?

The Vanquisher looks so cool that I think I'm going to make one, and while I cringe at the thought of a self-destructing Russ, the Executioner also sounds great, albeit very expensive. How about taking one without sponsons? Maybe with a hull LC? I can see how much extra firepower the sponsons provide for a relatively small cost though.

The loadout in my head for the Vanquisher is VPBC, hull lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons, plus a Catachan counts-as-Pask commander. Any c&c?

Hedkrakka wrote:
Thanks for the comments! What I am afraid of is that the Demolisher may not be able to fire for 2-3 turns because it's so slow, meaning that most other Russ variants would be more likely to "refund" their points value. Could anyone elaborate on this point?

The Vanquisher looks so cool that I think I'm going to make one, and while I cringe at the thought of a self-destructing Russ, the Executioner also sounds great, albeit very expensive. How about taking one without sponsons? Maybe with a hull LC? I can see how much extra firepower the sponsons provide for a relatively small cost though.

The loadout in my head for the Vanquisher is VPBC, hull lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons, plus a Catachan counts-as-Pask commander. Any c&c?

The Vanquisher you're thinking of is identical to the loadout I used to run, but I dropped the HB sponsons because frankly Pask is anti vehicle and anti MC, the sponsons don't frequently work well.

I've actually never taken an Executioner without sponsons, since 40 for two more PC templates is a bargain in my head, but the hull LC generally does nothing, continuing the ancient IG tradition of lascannons being worthless.

On the subject of the Demolisher, if you deploy it in the center of your army where it really does belong, you shouldn't have any trouble with range.

Demolishers are amazing, especially now that blasts are full strength on vehicles now.

 VinnyTheRifleman wrote:

Hedkrakka wrote:
Thanks for the comments! What I am afraid of is that the Demolisher may not be able to fire for 2-3 turns because it's so slow, meaning that most other Russ variants would be more likely to "refund" their points value. Could anyone elaborate on this point?

The Vanquisher looks so cool that I think I'm going to make one, and while I cringe at the thought of a self-destructing Russ, the Executioner also sounds great, albeit very expensive. How about taking one without sponsons? Maybe with a hull LC? I can see how much extra firepower the sponsons provide for a relatively small cost though.

The loadout in my head for the Vanquisher is VPBC, hull lascannon and heavy bolter sponsons, plus a Catachan counts-as-Pask commander. Any c&c?

The Vanquisher you're thinking of is identical to the loadout I used to run, but I dropped the HB sponsons because frankly Pask is anti vehicle and anti MC, the sponsons don't frequently work well.

I've actually never taken an Executioner without sponsons, since 40 for two more PC templates is a bargain in my head, but the hull LC generally does nothing, continuing the ancient IG tradition of lascannons being worthless.

On the subject of the Demolisher, if you deploy it in the center of your army where it really does belong, you shouldn't have any trouble with range.

My real problem with the sponson-less Vanquisher is that it costs 200+ pts and can't hurt infantry. But Pask does give a bonus that makes even HBs good against light vehicles and able to put one or two extra wounds on a MC per turn, doesn't he? That was my reasoning behind the sponsons. With the Demolishers I really really fear rolling a short table edge deployment, but I think I might proxy the tank without a turret and try it out. Let me know if you have any more c&c. Thanks!

I'm sorry, but where does it say that if a Russ fires ordnance everything else has to snap shot? I thought the whole reason behind giving the Russ the Heavy rule in the latest IG FAQ was to allow the Russ to fire its main cannon and all other weapons normally.

Can someone point out where it says this?

 creeping-deth87 wrote:
I'm sorry, but where does it say that if a Russ fires ordnance everything else has to snap shot? I thought the whole reason behind giving the Russ the Heavy rule in the latest IG FAQ was to allow the Russ to fire its main cannon and all other weapons normally.

Can someone point out where it says this?

Look in your rulebook about ordnance and tanks. Pretty much spells it out.

Hedkrakka wrote:
Hey, I have a regular Russ kit and a demolisher kit, both assembled and painted nicely except for the turret and weapons, since I can't decide what variant to choose and which weapons to add to it. I was so tempted by the Demolisher at first, an AV14 Vindicator with side armor that might actually allow it to survive! Then I read the FAQ and noticed it has to snap fire all its other weapons if it fires its Demolisher Cannon, and even worse, it counts as Heavy so it can never ever move more than 6" per turn-combine that with the poor range and I seem to have lost interest. I'm currently thinking of modeling an Executioner and a LRBT/Vanquisher/Exterminator. Am I overreacting to the changes, or is the Demolisher really significantly worse than before?

I find the Demolisher very underwhelming, especially when compared to the much cheaper and more mobile Vindicator. I think the Punisher is probably the best bet for that kit-- its firepower is truly strong now that glances actually kill, especially when commanded by Pask.

Why dont you magnetize the weapons options? That way you can try all of them out. Im a fan of the executioner. With the demolisher, it has to get reaaallly close, and if it scatters off target, itll most likely get charged next turn.

I think that there's one thing being overlooked about the Demolisher. Everyone says it has to get close.
The enemy is also not going to want to get close to it. They'll think twice about droppong a pod next to
it or deepstriking too close. They're pretty damn tuff. I think they're a pretty solid choice.

seanm222 wrote:
Why dont you magnetize the weapons options? That way you can try all of them out. Im a fan of the executioner. With the demolisher, it has to get reaaallly close, and if it scatters off target, itll most likely get charged next turn.

I could easily magnetize the sponsons and hull weapon, but given that the main gun has to fit into a recess in the turret, I don't see how I could magnetize that. Any ideas?

It really depends on how your infantry supports the tank--and how the tank supports your infantry-- that matters.

I find the 24" tanks (punisher, demolisher) are best when stuck in the middle of a large infantry gunline, just ahead of the heavy weapon squads and either in or just behind an infantry blob.

The shorter range tanks are not going to win any flank single-handedly, or demolish squads from afar, but when used in conjunction with infantry, they can be the difference between holding the line and being overrun, and the nice buffer of infantry will keep the enemy outside of effective melta range. (Related: Pask mowing down 30 guants a turn in his punisher is a beautiful, beautiful thing.)

It also depends on what you run. Low on anti-tank? Take the demolisher. Low on anti-horde? Take a punisher. For example, I find the exterminator pretty much useless because I stuff so many autocannons in my gunline anyways. These short-range tanks are line-holders, and form the backbone of a hybrid army.

That said, don't underestimate charging them down the opponent's throat. All the non-guard players I play usually blame the firepower of the single tank, which is far from the truth. The infantrymen with autocannons, lascannons, and even the humble lasgun are usually the firepower that gets things done. Strategically using the tank to draw fire away from your men, and even lure the opponent into range of your other weapons is a big key to running the shorter range tanks.

Now, ask yourself, would you pour massive amounts of firepower to shut down a measly 4 twin-linked autocannon shots, a formidable 20 str 5 shots (29 with some bolter sponsons) or a Str 10 AP 2 plate of doom?

For that reason, I'd either take the punisher or the demolisher. While the range leaves something to be desired, they bring one thing massed blobs can't: intimidation.

That said, get a Excecutioner, throw plasma sponsons on it and call it a day.

I could easily magnetize the sponsons and hull weapon, but given that the main gun has to fit into a recess in the turret, I don't see how I could magnetize that. Any ideas?

Magnatizing is a good idea with the sponsons but with the turret weapon I just slide what I need in and out. Each weapon in the kit for the turret seems to fit snug enough to not just fall out as long as I don't move it around too fast or violently.

Tactics wise I love the demolisher. Ever since it was rendered slow with the FAQ I struggled to get it into range to kill something. My LFGS has a three Blood Angels players and two do mech so they just drive away. Or they did until I started pairing my demolisher with Creed. Outflanking a demolisher and dropping a pie plate into a packed group of infantry or vehicles is priceless, though gimmicky. Take an astropath for good measure to make sure it comes in on turn 2 and where you want.

NO, a demolisher is not worth it in 6th ed with only 3 hull points! its 24 inch range so it will be badly damaged or most likely destroyed before it gets into weapons range man haha sad but true.

Take an Executioner AND a Demolisher, then take Creed and outflank the Demolisher to negate it's poor 24" range. You can then proceed to ass rape terminator squads from two sides of the board, until you get blown up.

:-)

I recommend if you are using a Russ variant and its ORD, get the ol' Leman Russ with no sponsons and no lascannon upgrade. Keep it cheap. The "Heavy" rule is fine and dandy but really punishes the ORD versions of the tank. Since it is not a Lumbering Behemoth anymore, you don't get to fire those other guns with any accuracy. The Demolisher is just a wasted upgrade in my opinion. Save the points, get some ST8 AP3 large blasts and call it a day.
If you want the ST10, get the Manticore. If you want the low AP, get the Basilisk or Medusa (or is it the Colusses?).
The real power of the Russ varients now is the ones that are not ORD.
As mentioned already, the Executioner with plas sponosons is the cats meow. Look at the other varients. Figure out what you need your tanks to do and then pick the best one at it.
Hope that helps!

I really don't see why everyone is panicking....Because the naked no-sponsons Leman Russ's worked fine in 5th and tbh still do.
That said, the Executioner is now an absolute beast, but it's really really expensive.

I will just take Executioner, Manticore and naked outflanking Demolisher for anal raping fun. I think this is still going to be a prime choice combination of Heavy Support slots. If I didn't take Creed though, I would probably take x2 executioners and a Manticore in higher points games to make people cry.

With the heavy thing...


What if you fired all you other weapons (sponsons, hull guns etc) first then fired your ordenace cannon?
Would all the other weapons fire at normal BS because the Cannon was fired last?

 Engine of War wrote:
With the heavy thing...


What if you fired all you other weapons (sponsons, hull guns etc) first then fired your ordenace cannon?
Would all the other weapons fire at normal BS because the Cannon was fired last?

All the firing from a single vehicle is simultaneous, so you'd be breaking the rules if you did this. There's no way to lawyer a way out of the restriction.

Just take any LR with plasma cannon sponsons now--especially one of the heavies instead of an ordinance gun, like the exterminator or the nova cannon. Because they can now fire both PCs on the move, you get a good chunk of the firepower of an executioner without paying the premium for the plasma turret.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Just take any LR with plasma cannon sponsons now--especially one of the heavies instead of an ordinance gun, like the exterminator or the nova cannon. Because they can now fire both PCs on the move, you get a good chunk of the firepower of an executioner without paying the premium for the plasma turret.

It makes absolutely no sense to take PC sponsons on a Russ with Ordnance weapons. Blast weapons can't snap fire, so you just waste the points. With heavies, I'd make sure targets sync up. For example, if I'm taking an Eradicator, it practically means I'm not fighting MEQ-and no one needs PC against them, unless someone decides to be crazy and bring 5 squads of Meganobz or 3 Tyrannofexes. Then heavy bolters start looking good.

And Gets Hot can hurt vehicles now-not a big probability but still an annoyance worth thinking about.

Hedkrakka wrote:

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

Just take any LR with plasma cannon sponsons now--especially one of the heavies instead of an ordinance gun, like the exterminator or the nova cannon. Because they can now fire both PCs on the move, you get a good chunk of the firepower of an executioner without paying the premium for the plasma turret.

It makes absolutely no sense to take PC sponsons on a Russ with Ordnance weapons. Blast weapons can't snap fire, so you just waste the points. With heavies, I'd make sure targets sync up. For example, if I'm taking an Eradicator, it practically means I'm not fighting MEQ-and no one needs PC against them, unless someone decides to be crazy and bring 5 squads of Meganobz or 3 Tyrannofexes. Then heavy bolters start looking good.

And Gets Hot can hurt vehicles now-not a big probability but still an annoyance worth thinking about.

You fire one weapon or the other if you have ordinance. On a standard russ, use the sponsons against 2+ armor and the battle cannon against targets more than 42" away. On the demolisher use the best weapon for the range that you have. You can't sacrifice shooting to move to range faster anyway, so might as well have an effective mid-range heavy infantry killer on your tank.

I agree it isn't the most efficient use of points--personally I'd use an exterminator turret with PC sponsons--but those were the choices the OP originally said were his two options.

How many shots are people actually getting off with their PC-sponson executioners anyway? One or two before the opponent does everything possible to stop it shooting? Sometimes a less-intimidating tank lasts longer, and therefore does more damage, just because it doesn't draw attention.

 Flavius Infernus wrote:

You fire one weapon or the other if you have ordinance. On a standard russ, use the sponsons against 2+ armor and the battle cannon against targets more than 42" away. On the demolisher use the best weapon for the range that you have. You can't sacrifice shooting to move to range faster anyway, so might as well have an effective mid-range heavy infantry killer on your tank.

I agree it isn't the most efficient use of points--personally I'd use an exterminator turret with PC sponsons--but those were the choices the OP originally said were his two options.

How many shots are people actually getting off with their PC-sponson executioners anyway? One or two before the opponent does everything possible to stop it shooting? Sometimes a less-intimidating tank lasts longer, and therefore does more damage, just because it doesn't draw attention.

Except that a LR with plasma sponsons is at least as expensive as a naked Executioner, so still it makes no sense. The EPC is Heavy so you can go crazy with all improvements and they can still fire. I understand your point about heavy Russes, but Ordnance... No thanks. I don't think anyone would want to spend that many points on a weapon that can't fire unless the main gun doesn't. If I take Ordnance LRs, I'll just take them naked.

LRs don't attract attention? Even a naked LRBT tends to draw a lot of fire in my experience.

BTW, I am the OP I already modeled a Vanquisher whose barrel isn't glued so I can convert it to a LRBT at will, without sponsons and with a magnetized hull weapon (currently LC since it's a Vanquisher right now). So with the second kit, I can make a Demolisher, a Punisher or an Executioner (or use the guns from the other kit to make an Exterminator or Eradicator). I definitely don't want the Punisher or the Eradicator, but the other options are still confusing. I'm not sure how an Exterminator with PC sponsons would work, given that the AP values of the weapons don't really synch well, so whatever you shoot at, some shots would be wasted. I do see the potential, but I'm not sure how points effective it would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I forgot to ask for your thoughts. Sorry Thoughts?

Hedkrakka wrote:
I'm not sure how an Exterminator with PC sponsons would work, given that the AP values of the weapons don't really synch well,

Oh, hey, the OP. Cool.

I like exterminators in general, so the fact that I can now replace my HB sponsons with PCs and have a threat against heavy infantry that can still fire everything on the move is just bonus for me.

For the exterminator compared with an executioner:

-The str 7 on all the guns for light antitank fire (except the PC gives you +1 on the damage table as a bonus). The exterminator can potentially score 6 antitank hits to the executioner's 5.
-Anything with a 4+ or lower save won't get an armor save regardless, so the weapons are really only mismatched for 3+ and 2+ saves. You're still putting wounds on those models, though, and hitting more often with the twinlinking, so you get the odd additional wound from the autocannon shot.
-Unless you pay a premium for the lascannon on the hull, your AP will be mismatched on an executioner with the hull HB or flamer anyway.
-Exterminator turrets are decent anti-flyer backup shots if your plan A doesn't work out. Executioners are helpless against flyers (except for the hull mounted weapon potentially).

When you're buying 2-3 tanks, 40 points cheaper per tank is no small deal.