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foolishmortal wrote:

A zooming flyer moving flat out goes 12-24", not 18-36".

Just a quick thing to point out, if it has the supersonic rule, then it's flat out move is 18-36"

Anyway, RAW is clear as mud on this one, in which case I tend to default to trying to determine RAI. The intent of the rule seems to be to keep flyers from hiding in reserves without giving the other player a fair crack at them. I personally would play it that you cannot zoom off the board on the turn that a flyer arrived from reserves. Having multiple flyers myself, I don't think that's an unfair interpretation. Until FAQ'd, I'd still discuss it with your TO or opponent prior to the game.

coredump wrote:The "zoom move" is described pretty clearly.

foolishmortal wrote:But they also say that a Zoom move is 18-36" with up to a 90 degree pivot at the beginning.

The term "Zoom move" is not used to describe the section about the movement phase move of a Zooming flyer, anywhere in that section or its headers.

Just my interpretation on this debate;

"In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

When the flyer enters the board it is zooming. From the point it enters the board move a minimum of 18 inches in the direction it is facing.

You must face a direction that will ensure it stays on the table when it enters in a zooming fashion. After that, all bets are off.

As for "zoom = zooming = flat out = whatever" .. are all flyers considered "Zooming Flyers" (capitalized on purpose)? If yes, the debate goes on, if no then "Zooming Flyer" (capitalized) refers to a specific type of flyer and not "a flyer that has performed a zoom (ie : a flyer that is zooming)" where "zooming flyer" could be read as "a flyer that has/is conducting a Zoom Move".

Maelstrom808 wrote:Just a quick thing to point out, if it has the supersonic rule, then it's flat out move is 18-36"

I love, cherish, and appreciate points like this. I try to find what the rules actually say, not find rules to say what I want.

Maelstrom808 wrote:Anyway, RAW is clear as mud on this one, in which case I tend to default to trying to determine RAI. The intent of the rule seems to be to keep flyers from hiding in reserves without giving the other player a fair crack at them. I personally would play it that you cannot zoom off the board on the turn that a flyer arrived from reserves. Having multiple flyers myself, I don't think that's an unfair interpretation.

I also had a concern here, but the stipulation against bombing runs and the Interceptor rule eased my RAI concerns. My only remaining concern on that revolves around special disembarkation rules like Grav Shoot deployment from Vendettas. Something to think about, but not a big RAI balance issue. (imo)

Pyrian wrote:The term "Zoom move" is not used to describe the section about the movement phase move of a Zooming flyer, anywhere in that section or its headers.

p80 (Zoom) "a special kind of move called Zoom" "If a Flyer Zooms, it has ..." p81 under Leaving Combat Airspace "a Flyer making a Zoom move" Those are all in the section or its headers.

There seems to be an unspoken criticism here that I will agree with. I should be more careful with my words, especially when I am asking others to do the same.

So has anyone brought up that flat out is detailed under the "Zoom and Flat Out" heading? I mean, that right there should be enough to equate the two together.

I try to avoid equating things in 40k rules discussions. I catch myself falling into the trap of trying to put everything into neat little boxes and square pegs in round holes.

This one seems pretty simple. My main objections to the PRO position arguments so far have been ones of style, not ones of substance. It's also entirely possible I am grumpy from having a bad day yesterday.

The permission for the zooming flyer to leave board-space in a flat-out move is contingent on the "zoom move" noted on p81 to mean any movement while having the zooming trait. This seems reasonable. Not air-tight, black and white, but reasonable.

 Kevin949 wrote:
So has anyone brought up that the flat out move is detailed under the "Zoom and Flat Out" heading? I mean, that right there should be enough to equate the two together.

Try reading the thread, but for giggles...

No, it really isn't.

"A Zooming Flyer that goes flat out must fowards in a straight line between 12" and 24" "


A Zooming Flyer is a state. It is not a unit type. It is not an action taken in the Movement or Shooting phases.

A Zoom, Zooming or Zooms move is taken in the movement phase and follows the rules such as 90 degree pre-movement pivot, minimum 18", and cannot leave the board in the same turn it arrives.


Under Leaving Combat Airspace it specifically refers to a "Zoom move" as the only action that allows the flyer to leave the board and enter reserve.

Executing a Flat Out move, which occurs in the Shooting phase, is not a Zooming move / Zoom move / Zooms even though the unit's currently a Zooming Flyer. (This is no different than a Turbo-boosting Jetbike, it confers no special rules except those explicitly described, can only be shot with snapshots, etc.) Therefor you can not re-enter ongoing reserves with a Flat Out move.

Yet Zoom = Zooming.

"A Flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going
to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase..." P.81

If you make a flat out move you are zooming, as the flyer has chosen to Zoom before it moves each Movement phase.

So a flyer zooms or hovers.

If Zoom then can leave table (But not on the initial move as the rules point out), if hover it can not.

 Boneblade wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:
So has anyone brought up that the flat out move is detailed under the "Zoom and Flat Out" heading? I mean, that right there should be enough to equate the two together.

Try reading the thread, but for giggles...

No, it really isn't.

"A Zooming Flyer that goes flat out must fowards in a straight line between 12" and 24" "


A Zooming Flyer is a state. It is not a unit type. It is not an action taken in the Movement or Shooting phases.

A Zoom, Zooming or Zooms move is taken in the movement phase and follows the rules such as 90 degree pre-movement pivot, minimum 18", and cannot leave the board in the same turn it arrives.


Under Leaving Combat Airspace it specifically refers to a "Zoom move" as the only action that allows the flyer to leave the board and enter reserve.

Executing a Flat Out move, which occurs in the Shooting phase, is not a Zooming move / Zoom move / Zooms even though the unit's currently a Zooming Flyer. (This is no different than a Turbo-boosting Jetbike, it confers no special rules except those explicitly described, can only be shot with snapshots, etc.) Therefor you can not re-enter ongoing reserves with a Flat Out move.

So if a flat out flyer isn't zooming then it looses hard to hit? Since zooming flyers are required to make zoom moves and all....

 DeathReaper wrote:

"A Flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going
to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase..." P.81

Good catch. I stand by my early statement of reasonableness and withdraw 60% of my objection to air tight.

 Kevin949 wrote:



So if a flat out flyer isn't zooming then it looses hard to hit? Since zooming flyers are required to make zoom moves and all....

This is the best logic I've seen in the PRO corner, but doesn't really clarify what permits the Flyer to leave the table under Leaving Combat Airspace.


Under Leaving Combat Airspace, the permission to leave the board is for a Zoom move. The only other place that terminology shows up is under pg 80 for Zooming / Zooms / Zoom moves.


EITHER
A flyer in the Zooming state treats all moves as Zoom moves and therefor may leave combat airspace with a Flat Out move in the shooting phase

OR
A flyer can only leave the board with a Zoom move which occurs only during the Movement phase and does not extend to the Flat Out move done in the shooting phase, despite the flyer still being in a Zooming state

 Boneblade wrote:

 Kevin949 wrote:



So if a flat out flyer isn't zooming then it looses hard to hit? Since zooming flyers are required to make zoom moves and all....

This is the best logic I've seen in the PRO corner, but doesn't really clarify what permits the Flyer to leave the table under Leaving Combat Airspace.


Under Leaving Combat Airspace, the permission to leave the board is for a Zoom move. The only other place that terminology shows up is under pg 80 for Zooming / Zooms / Zoom moves.


EITHER
A flyer in the Zooming state treats all moves as Zoom moves and therefor may leave combat airspace with a Flat Out move in the shooting phase

OR
A flyer can only leave the board with a Zoom move which occurs only during the Movement phase and does not extend to the Flat Out move done in the shooting phase, despite the flyer still being in a Zooming state

I'm inclined to believe the first as all the previous sections in the flyer rules state "a zooming flyer..." before giving the restrictions or benefits of such. Including the "Zoom and Flat Out" section. And including the Zoom rules. Also in the zoom section it does give indication that Zoom and Zooming are the same by saying - "If a flyer zooms it has a combat speed of.... However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required, a zooming flyer can..."

Anywho, that's just my thought on it, from how everything about them reads, flyers always "Zoom" (when in zoom mode) regardless to what they're doing (unless they hover, obviously).

 Boneblade wrote:
Under Leaving Combat Airspace, the permission to leave the board is for a Zoom move. The only other place that terminology shows up is under pg 80 for Zooming / Zooms / Zoom moves.

The latter is not true; there is no "Zoom move" in the section detailing movement phase moves for Zooming flyers. That means there is no more reason to think that a movement phase move is a "Zoom move" than a shooting phase move. Zoom? Check. Move? Check. It's not "Zoom move" as a combined term because that is not a defined combination term. It's both "Zoom" and "move" which a flat-out move while Zooming qualifies for, in exactly the same way that a movement phase move while Zooming qualifies.

^ this