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So, my buddy and I were playing a few games the other day and I came upon a strategy in my mind. I had two night scythes and he had a flyrant and was going second. I wanted my scythes to come in after the flyrant to avoid the 12 str 6 skyfire shots and be able to shoot him first.

So I thought to simply come in and fly off in one move if i rolled in from reserves or came in from ongoing reserves and wait until the flyrant was on the board. We looked for anything that said this doesnt work, my buddy came to the conclusion that you can leave the table at any time on your own movement phase, so he thinks it is legal.

To me it just seems a touch cheesey and would allow for greater control over reserves, even though i used the trick and cant find anything that says not to.

Any thoughts, references confirming or preventing this tactic?

You are allowed to leave the table with a Zooming flyer.

There are no rules restricting this (Other than needing to be in Zooming mode, and reach a table edge).

So you can move them on and off in the same turn.

You cannot move them off in the same move, but could flat out and take them off. pg 80

Fragile wrote:
You cannot move them off in the same move, but could flat out and take them off. pg 80

Right I meant same turn, not same move. I will fix the post.

Cool, thanks for the info. That helps a little, the only thing clarifies is if someone can take an interceptor shot with a gun emplacement like icarus LC or quad gun, which did not come up as he diddnt have one.

Except the rules don't allow you to fly off with a Flat Out move. They are very specific and say you can only move off the board with a "Zoom Move". The Zoom Move is specifically defined... and is different from the Flat Out move.

"Zoom and Flat Out
A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a
straight line between 12" and 24"."
Page 81

Zoom = Zooming.

A zoom move is described on p80.

The permission to leave the table (p81) is for a zoom move, and it's a poorly phrased permission at that. (imo)

If a Flyer, that is Zooming goes Flat Out, it is still Zooming, and can leave the table.

"A Flyer that has the Hover type can choose to Hover instead of
Zooming" P.81
"A Flyer with the Hover type must declare whether it is going
to Zoom or Hover before it moves each Movement phase..." P.81

So the flyer can be Zooming, or Hovering. flat out while Zooming is still Zooming.

Pg 80 right side 2nd paragraph

"In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

Zooming permits you to leave the board except the turn in which the Flyer enters from reserves. Period. Doesn't matter whether this is a Zooming zoom or a Flat-Out zoom.

 Boneblade wrote:
Pg 80 right side 2nd paragraph

"In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

Zooming permits you to leave the board except the turn in which the Flyer enters from reserves. Period. Doesn't matter whether this is a Zooming zoom or a Flat-Out zoom.

you misread it, re-read the "providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

The resulting move is talking about the move in the movement phase, not the Flat out Zoom move.

No. The rules indicate nothing about this restriction being isolated to the movement phase. YOU might want to reread the relevant pages.


(*1)"In a TURN in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

My emphasis. Unless otherwise stated this is considered to be a player turn. (Pg 9 BRB)

Secondly:

A Zooming Flyer is a Zooming Flyer but a Flat Out move made by a Zooming Flyer does NOT equal a Zoom Move. Only Zoom moves allow you to leave combat airspace.

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a ZOOM MOVE will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. . . . . . "

This Zoom movement action is described on Pg 80 and it's rules are clearly defined with the above line (*1)

"The resulting move" is directly referencing the move that is made to "enter the board from reserve".

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move..." P.81

Zooming = Zoom.

Sorry, I'm not going to agree with you on this one DeathReaper.

A "Zooming" Flyer is an adjective. This references the unit, for example a Heldrake, in the context that it is a Flyer that is Zooming this turn. This is equivalent to saying you have a Swooping Bloodthirster. This phrase does not itself say that the Bloodthirster is executing a "Swoop" move, which has a clear description of how to perform the action. It is totally SEPARATE from a Run movement that is executed in the shooting phase, despite the fact that the FMC is still described as Swooping.

The Heldrake enters the board. It must be Zooming. In the movement phase it executes a Zoom move, as described on Pg 80, with clear restrictions that it cannot do this in a way that will cause it to leave the table.

In the shooting phase the Heldrake may also execute a Flat-Out move as described on pg 72 (Moving Flat Out) and pg 81 (Zoom and Flat Out).

"A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24".

These are DIFFERENT ACTIONS that occur in DIFFERENT PHASES. They are DIFFERENT. Saying that the Heldrake is a Zooming Flyer does not mean that while executing a Flat Out move in the shooting phase it is considered to be executing a Zoom move, which can only be done in the movement phase. That would require a sentence giving very specific permission to do so.

To re-enter reserves by moving past the table edge you must be making a Zoom move. The rule does not say you must be able to move the model off the table while counting as a Zooming Flyer. It says you must leave the table using a Zoom move.

"a flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident.."

Leaving Combat Airspace can only be done while executing a Zoom move - or else you voluntarily leave the table while moving Flat Out, and your model is destroyed.

They are different actions, but the Flyer is still Zooming when it makes a Flat out move.

You can disagree with me, but the rules do not.

Read the above. The rule for leaving the table and entering combat airspace does not depend on the model being a Zooming Flyer.

It depends on the model executing a Zoom move.

Pg 81 (Leaving Combat Airspace)

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board,"

Nowhere does it mention that a Zooming Flyer may leave the board.

Re-read Page 80 Zoom Entry, it equates Zoom with Zooming.

Zooming and Zoom can be said to mean the same thing, when executing a Zoom move. However...

A Zooming Flyer that either (Zooms / is Zooming)
is still executing a Zoom move in the Movement phase.

In the shooting phase, a Zooming Flyer is executing a Flat Out move.

 Boneblade wrote:
In the shooting phase, a Zooming Flyer is executing a Flat Out move.

And is still Zooming.

Okay.

I've stated my case, and for the purpose of the thread I don't think we could repeat ourselves any more than we already have (or at least could not contribute additional useful information.)

Just for clarity in response to the last post, the model being in a "Zooming" state or called a "Zooming Flyer" does not mean that a Flat Out move is considered a Zoom move. They are different actions, even you agreed to that.

 DeathReaper wrote:
They are different actions, but the Flyer is still Zooming when it makes a Flat out move.

The entry for Leaving Combat Airspace does not require the model to be a Zooming Flyer or even to "be Zooming" (aka; that Flyer is zooming so you need to snapshot it). The same word could be used to say "I'm Zooming this Heldrake to that end of the table", but that action is still a Zoom move.

It requires the Flyer to make a Zoom move, which is patently different than a Flat Out move and even occurs in a different phase. Your latest argument is that on Pg 80 they equate Zoom with Zooming, but the model being called a "Zooming Flyer" still does not mean it is performing a move that is Zooming. It is a Zooming Flyer performing a move that is going Flat Out.

All respect my man but I know how I'd play it and disagree with your interpretation on RAW.

Regardless of which way you play it, the Helldrake should only be fielded with the proper cliche theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFGKrg79Gk

As I said earlier, the permission to leave the table (p81) is for a zoom move. A zoom move is described on p80.

Also on p80 is a restriction that the zoom move may not take the flyer off the board the same turn it came on.

zoom = zooming is an interesting argument. I won't touche it for now. I will ask this....

If zoom = zooming, and because of this the p81 rules allow the flyer to leave the board, why doesn't zooming = zoom and the p80 rules require it to stay?

 Brometheus wrote:
Regardless of which way you play it, the Helldrake should only be fielded with the proper cliche theme song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wFGKrg79Gk

Nawww

I'll be using: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjqsYzBrP-M

And when the truth finally dawns... IT DAWNS IN FIRE


FUS ROH DAHH

foolishmortal wrote:
zoom = zooming is an interesting argument. I won't touche it for now. I will ask this....

If zoom = zooming, and because of this the p81 rules allow the flyer to leave the board, why doesn't zooming = zoom and the p80 rules require it to stay?

Zoom = Zooming here is why: "ZOOM" heading "Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. (Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down)...If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed of 18" ... a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18". If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase..."
The parenthetical is fluff, but the rest is rules.

See how the underlined equates Zoom to Zooming?

As for your question:

The requirement to stay on the board is on the initial move.

"In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again"

"In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board" is talking about the movement phase, as that is when Flyers enter the board. "the resulting move" is talking about the aforementioned flyer entering the board, which only happens in the movement phase.

This is why it is only required to stay from the initial move.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Zoom = Zooming here is why: "ZOOM" heading "Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover - see page 81. (Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down)...If a Flyer Zooms, it has a combat speed of 18" ... a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18". If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase..."
The parenthetical is fluff, but the rest is rules.

See how the underlined equates Zoom to Zooming?

It's a reasonable interpretation. It may even be right, but the above mass of text and underlining is neither clear, nor persuasive.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The requirement to stay on the board is on the initial move.

This look like solid reasoning. I would agree here.

A quick read of p81 also put to rest my initial concerns about this procedure being used for easy bombing runs.
Further consideration of the Interceptor rule removed any remaining concerns.

RAI, I would have no problems with zooming on and flat out-ing off.

RAW, I would prefer a specific permission for a flyer moving flat out to leave the battlefield. Rules permission to leave the battlefield is rather rare in 40k. I would prefer it not be assumed to apply based on an English language based argument.

FWIW, FMCs seem to be able to leave combat airspace while Swooping by executing a Run in the Shooting phase. IWO, they don't talk about a "Swooping move" there, just that they are Swooping. When they do the Run in the Shooting phase, they are still considered Swooping - p49. I know FMCs aren't Flyers, but....

DR you can keep saying the same thing over and over, but you need rules to back you up.

It does *not* say a "zooming flyer" can leave the board.
It is very very specific, it only allows the 'zoom move' for leaving the battlefield.

The "zoom move" is described pretty clearly.

Later on, they talk about a flyer that has performed a zoom move also making a flat out move.

There is nothing saying that a flat out move is a 'zoom move'.

coredump wrote:
There is nothing saying that a flat out move is a 'zoom move'.

Did you read my previous post?

They equate Zoom = Zooms = Zooming on Page 81

It is right there in black and white.


Also:
"ZOOM AND FLAT OUT... A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24".

Zoom = Zooming.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Did you read my previous post?

They equate Zoom = Zooms = Zooming on Page 81

It is right there in black and white.

But they also say that a Zoom move is 18-36" with up to a 90 degree pivot at the beginning.

They also say a Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24"

Perhaps they are similar or related, but not the same. Any property of one, may or may not be applied to the other.

Zooming seems to be a Flyer attribute. Some flyers are always zooming, some can choose to hover, etc.

Zoom move is described on p80.
Moving Flat Out is described on p72.
Special instructions for moving flat out with a zooming flyer are found on p81.

A zooming flyer moving flat out goes 12-24", not 18-36".
A zooming flyer moving flat moves straight forward, it may not pivot.

A zooming flyer moving flat wishing to leave the battlefield and enter ongoing reserves is trickier. It doesn't say yes or no so clearly.

Permission to do so might be inferred, but that inference is based on the premise that any movement by a zooming flyer is a zoom move.

Saying over and over that zoom = zooming does not show zoom = zooming.

I have described rules based differences between a zoom move and a zooming flyer moving flat out. Perhaps we could look for some rules based similarities as well. I would also suggest we look at those similarities and ask, are they the same because both involve a zooming flyer, or because zoom = zooming.

foolishmortal wrote:
Saying over and over that zoom = zooming does not show zoom = zooming.

Right Me saying it does not show it, but the rules quotes I used do.