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 Manchu wrote:
I am really looking forward to HTC's Windows Phone 8X.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Laptops still have a place. You can't do real work on an IFad, where you an with a laptop.

Windows 8 aims to change that.

Its not the operator, but the size of it. While large enough for some field apps, its too small for your daily pencil pusher tasks.

 DiAF wrote:
The fact that a PS3 can play blu rays, and at least in nz, PS3s are still cheaper than blu ray players, makes the PS3 still completely relevant.

No offense, but "relevant in New Zealand" doesn't strike me as Sony's overarching goal. Sony itself sells bluray players that cost less than a PS3 in the States ... and doesn't that kind of make sense given that a PS3 is more than a bluray player? I'd guess more PS3s are imported to NZ than bluray players (which might tell you something about the relevance of physical media in the context of streaming) but again that kind of regional idiosyncrasy is a poor measuring stick of market relevance. I'll grant you that the build in bluray player is a big plus for the PS3 but losing the latest physical medium war has not hindered Xbox in the slightest. In the meantime, they are game consoles and as game consoles on the game console market, PS3 is not in first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frazzled wrote:
Its not the operator, but the size of it.

That's what she said?

While large enough for some field apps, its too small for your daily pencil pusher tasks.

Yeah, thinking of the spreadsheets I work with, this screen size would not be my first choice. But MS knows this is a challenge and the question becomes are there accessibility features that help to overcome it? The MS model is not "do everything on your tablet" but rather "each device is fully integrated into the Windows 8 ecosystem." So imagine taking your tablet home and working on the parts of your spreadsheet that you could work on at that screen size. This kind of organic work process is like the Holy Grail of mobile devices. And neither Apple nor Android have made any significant progress toward it despite having the market all to themselves. This is why Eric Schmidt's comment on the Surface is such an understatement. There's a little fear there, I think.

The PS3 as a Blueray player is completely useless to me. I don't buy physical media any more almost as a rule. I have Netflix and I can access that through my Xbox which also plays DVDs and Vidya games.

A single desktop tower of high quality could provide the same services but frankly I'm out of the PC Gaming arms race and I'm staying out.

 Manchu wrote:

 DiAF wrote:
The fact that a PS3 can play blu rays, and at least in nz, PS3s are still cheaper than blu ray players, makes the PS3 still completely relevant.

No offense, but "relevant in New Zealand" doesn't strike me as Sony's overarching goal. Sony itself sells bluray players that cost less than a PS3 in the States ... and doesn't that kind of make sense given that a PS3 is more than a bluray player? I'd guess more PS3s are imported to NZ than bluray players (which might tell you something about the relevance of physical media in the context of streaming) but again that kind of regional idiosyncrasy is a poor measuring stick of market relevance. I'll grant you that the build in bluray player is a big plus for the PS3 but losing the latest physical medium war has not hindered Xbox in the slightest. In the meantime, they are game consoles and as game consoles on the game console market, PS3 is not in first place.

The Xbox isn't in first place either. The Wii has outsold it by just under 30 million units as of June this year. Either way i agree that the Xbox as a pure gaming console has advantages over the PS3, but at least you don't have to choose one or the other. You can enjoy the best of both worlds.

I have all three. I haven't touched the Wii since being completely let down by The Last Story, Nintendo America's attempt to give the console a little bit of grown up gaming. Regarding PS3, I had my information stolen from them at least twice last year (at least that's how many times they admitted it happened) and on the gaming front, it's been four months since Dawnguard (DLC for Skyrim) came out on Xbox aaaaand still not even a release date on PS3. The second Skyrim DLC has now been out for Xbox for over a month. Bethesda has flat-out said with regard to Sony, "it's not us, it's you."

But this isn't really a debate about consoles. The issue is that no one can point at the Xbox and say "gee, that's not successful" or "Microsoft really fumbled on making its own hardware."

Xbox is lagging behind in the graphics realm. If you take a look at 2 identical TVs, with identical connections, we'll say HDMI (if the 360 can even use that), and put the same game for the 360 and PS3. We'll say Madden '13. When you compare how they look, it really doesn't compare, the Xbox looks like the sick, old man of consoles. I am not saying that the 360 overall is not worth the money, as they have obviously done something right with their online content and connections, though I still prefer my playstation.


The thing with MS is, with few exceptions, they engineer their products from a standpoint of existing tech. This cuts down some of the development cost, but it also lessens the overall life of that device (see original Xbox, compared to PS2).

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
we'll say HDMI (if the 360 can even use that)

What?

 Manchu wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
we'll say HDMI (if the 360 can even use that)

What?

I am not sure if the 360 can connect to a TV via HDMI, as I do not own one, hence why I put that there.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Manchu wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
we'll say HDMI (if the 360 can even use that)

What?

I am not sure if the 360 can connect to a TV via HDMI, as I do not own one, hence why I put that there.

I think the new models have the HDMI ports... I think that's why Manchu was c'nfused.

I hate the Xbox. It's a flawed and outdated system that I wouldn't miss for a second if it dropped off the face of the earth. I'm not a "HARDDD CORPS GAMA" so of course, the idea of paying to play online is a personal offense. Plus, their exclusives are garbage.

I don't particularly like Microsoft's ideas of competition or ingenuity. There's no drive or ideas behind them besides caving into the newest trends and garbage to make a quick buck. Overall, I would label them as a weak company because of it. Before Vista, I wouldn't have said the same thing though.Tablets and 'pads' are a braindead idea. They only appeal to stupid people who're looking for something simple to wrap their heads around. Anyone with a brain has stuck with their computer. A phone is a phone. As long as it tells me the time, and lets me call people, I could care less what OS it uses. I'd wager that 99% of people are either decided on what they like, or really could care less. Microsoft is trying to fill a niche that simply doesn't exist with phone owners.

However, Windows is a very versatile system, and I'm familiar with it, so I have a fair bit of loyalty towards microsoft in that respect. They also make pretty solid peripherals. They've also been very good in their professional solutions systems.

They can redeem themselves, maybe, but as they're going, I think they have too many hands in too many pots, and need to get back to basics.

Xbox has supported HDMI for a long, long time. Seems a shame to pan a product on the basis of ignorance. But like I said, this isn't really a console war thread. The point is that the Xbox is an example of Microsoft being extremely successful and basically dominant with proprietary software.

Samus_aran115 wrote:I'd wager that 99% of people are either decided on what they like, or really could care less.

Then you'd make a pretty poor exec for any of the "Gang of Four" companies (plus Microsoft). Consumers are a lot more fickle than you seem to imagine. Consumer electronics brand loyalty is measured in wireless contract periods, not generations -- despite what diehard Mac fans might have you believe. Windows 8 could be the start of some major changes. At its most successful, I think Microsoft could wind up pushing Android out of the competition with this.

I'm not a user of 'Tablet PCs' of any kind. while i'm using Nokia smatphone (a very outdated, and not so fashionable versions compared to a fabulous I-Phone) I use it for 'communication' purpose. I rarely send an SMS (but always been spammed by advertising messages) and never play Angry Birds.

Microsoft can still have some future. I don't think both Notebooks and Tablets will replace conventional PCs. but since these ICT products become short-lived. Microsoft might be doomed if they don't secure a fair share of 'Tablet PC' software markets.

It's not so much about tablet as it is about post-PC. Microsoft's former business plan assumed that all serious computing happened on a desktop or laptop. As Frazzled points out, that is still pretty much true today. But it won't always be true and MS plans to get there first. So you can't really think about it as MS just following Apple into the device world as that's a misunderstanding of both companies. Even for Apple, it's more about iTunes than it is their devices. The Surface is not really the star of the show, either. It's a launchpad for consumption of Windows 8.

 Manchu wrote:
It's not so much about tablet as it is about post-PC. Microsoft's former business plan assumed that all serious computing happened on a desktop or laptop. As Frazzled points out, that is still pretty much true today. But it won't always be true and MS plans to get there first. So you can't really think about it as MS just following Apple into the device world as that's a misunderstanding of both companies. Even for Apple, it's more about iTunes than it is their devices. The Surface is not really the star of the show, either. It's a launchpad for consumption of Windows 8.

When it comes to "replacing" my laptop and desktop, if MS is to be successful at it, a tablet needs to do what I use my current computers for at least as good as they do, if not better. Another issue that I'm seeing nowadays, is the cultural ADD. It seems that every 2-4 months the "next big thing" is coming out, the Galaxy 3, iPhone 5, software and app developers have what seems about a single month to get as many good programs out there, before a new "thing" comes out. Sure that makes a lot of money for the device manufacturer, but how is it affecting the other businesses that rely on these things?

Sure Apple has iTunes, and MS has Zune that are both pretty stable as software goes (the occasional updates, etc.) but I wouldn't characterize either company by those programs. Everyone knows MS for Windows, and MS Office products. Everyone knows Apple probably more for its "iToys" than even it's OS, and iTunes. I believe the two to be linked, and if MS is to survive, Windows 8 had better be pretty good.

So first off, iPhone 5 or 6 or 82 might be the next thing but it certainly isn't big in the sense of a developing market. The iPhone 5 release ("mapocalypse") shows us that each successive iteration is at least as much a risk as an opportunity for the brand. Yeah, that should be obvious but Apple has a funny way of making people forget what's obvious.

Second, Microsoft doesn't want to replace your desktop/laptop with a tablet. Rather, MS wants to take into account that people use more than desktop/laptops and have expectations that these things all connect. So this is what Apple has been up to in a very superficial way. MS wants a heavy duty version of this. MS seems to believe this isn't just a novel delight of technophiles but more and more a fact of working life.

Third, of course everyone knows MS for software and Apple for iToys. MS doesn't make Windows Toys yet. The Surface is a really interesting proposition not only because MS hasn't done it before but also because it doesn't plan to be an exclusive manufacturer like Apple. It seems to me that MS needs to bring the Surface to market at a low price so that, as per earlier in the thread, consumers would feel stupid not buying it. Yes, their traditional hardware partners will take that hard at first. But MS wants its hardware partners to make machines that compete with the Surface.

Sounds dumb at first -- if you think, like many Apple fans and the peanut gallery generally, that the game is really about selling devices. Apple and Google and MS all know that the game is really about establishing the expectations of how people interact with technology. Apple's plan has been about exclusivity: you live in our world (but look how pretty it is). Android's plan has been about versatility but that's failed by comparison to Apple. When faced between having all of their choices made for them and having to make all their own choices, consumers tend to prefer being controlled as long as that control is mostly pleasurable.

MS wants to step into the middle. What if the default was great but there were still options? That's what the Surface is all about: here's a great tablet for a great price -- it's a great default choice. And it gets you into the world of Windows 8. MS wants people to encounter Windows 8 across diverse channels the same way that they've encountered previous Windows versions on the desktop: as a default that you can make your own. The Surface is meant to establish that. Once its established, and people decide they want to do more, they can go out a buy a HTC tablet that runs Windows 8 or whatever, just like you'd run Windows on an Asus laptop or a Dell laptop.

This is so different from Apple's comparatively narrow vision. Apple dominated a market that it engineered, big deal. If anything, that is a stark testament against Android. What MS is trying to do is basically invalidate that market as provincial just like they did with regard to desktop environments. "Yes, you could go live in Mac world or you could use Windows like everyone else." For what it's worth, the success of iPad and iPhone haven't turned that tide. But that tide has shrunk so much because the market is no longer just about what people are doing on desktops/laptops.

I think tablets are faddy and will go away soon when a new shiny emerges.

I believe in microsoft more than apple and I'm typing this fom a mac (unfortunatly)

I predict if Microsoft comes out with a cheaper tablet that can do what a laptop does it will do very well.

Ipads are really cool, but they have flaws. Namely battery life(not sure about what the Ipad2s rating on this issue is) and you can't do word processing.


Office is the most useful set of business tools out there. If you can get that onto a tablet it would be glorious.

I'd buy a $200 tablet that can do Word Processing, Excel, Power Point, and do other things that Tablets do.


Apple really just has the "Hey, Its Apple and it looks cool, buy me!" factor. For practical purposes, Microsoft is superior.

 Manchu wrote:


Second, Microsoft doesn't want to replace your desktop/laptop with a tablet. Rather, MS wants to take into account that people use more than desktop/laptops and have expectations that these things all connect. So this is what Apple has been up to in a very superficial way. MS wants a heavy duty version of this. MS seems to believe this isn't just a novel delight of technophiles but more and more a fact of working life.

What I'm getting from this, is that MS needs to work with a "Cloud" type system, where users can somehow register each of their windows devices, and from anyone of their machines, can access any document, or program that they are working on? It's really the only way that I see this sort of tablet design working for MS.

If they can perfect this sort of system, AND have it be as secure as hardwire internet connection, or as close to that as possible, I can see places like hospitals, schools, and most any business imaginable using these sorts of things. It could cause some balance problems in other industries, but in the end it'll do so.

MS is all about the cloud, my friend. Take another look at Ballmer's letter. We spend so much time calling smart, successful people idiots that we forget they are smart and successful.

 Manchu wrote:
MS is all about the cloud, my friend. Take another look at Ballmer's letter. We spend so much time calling smart, successful people idiots that we forget they are smart and successful.

And you're not kidding...

I'm telling you guys... Tablets (and more specifically the OS/Apps for Tablets) are the next big thing in Information Technologies.

The knowledge is there... its just the backend/infastruture needs to be implemented to support the demand.

I'm inherently suspicious of the "cloud" and all of those sort of systems. I don't have nearly enough legitimate content to make it worth using, and if I did, I wouldn't want to put it onto a server instead of buying an HDD or something. I'm just a consumer though. Most businesses would be delighted to have that capability for affordable prices.

For professional solutions, Apple isn't reliable enough, and I understand how MS intends to fill the niche. I would say that the iPad is just a silly joke. It has almost no professional application, without wiping its crappy OS and putting something more serious and less bloated. If MS can do that, I think they've got a winner.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:
I'm inherently suspicious of the "cloud" and all of those sort of systems. I don't have nearly enough legitimate content to make it worth using, and if I did, I wouldn't want to put it onto a server instead of buying an HDD or something. I'm just a consumer though. Most businesses would be delighted to have that capability for affordable prices.

For professional solutions, Apple isn't reliable enough, and I understand how MS intends to fill the niche. I would say that the iPad is just a silly joke. It has almost no professional application, without wiping its crappy OS and putting something more serious and less bloated. If MS can do that, I think they've got a winner.

That's why MS really is trying to get it's foot in the door...

Apple is dominating the market, but they've realized they're lagging behind in the "business solutions" that would drive further sales. They've recently started (or, it may have been last year?) a HUUUUUUUUUGE spending binge to develop office solutions apps.

I'll try to find the article, but Apple is partnering with some of the biggest Health Information Companies to start churning out solutions.

 Samus_aran115 wrote:


For professional solutions, Apple isn't reliable enough, and I understand how MS intends to fill the niche. I would say that the iPad is just a silly joke. It has almost no professional application, without wiping its crappy OS and putting something more serious and less bloated. If MS can do that, I think they've got a winner.

That seriously depends on the "profession" my mother is a graphics designer and webmaster for my home state. For the 25+ years that she has worked for the state, she has never used anything other than a Macintosh type computer. I get what you are trying to get at here, and the iPad is seriously one of those things that doesn't have many practical applications, unless you are an editor for a publisher maybe? Digitally proofreading a book may make things easier, but I'm sure that it'd be even easier on an MS system

Apple is very good at developing consumer products and coming up with new ideas I'll give them that.

The rumor is that Apple will launch the iPad Mini on October 23, two/three days before the Surface launch. It's clever. I bet Apple is banking on the inevitable but totally inappropriate comparisons. Think about it, how can Apple lose? People will criticize the Surface RT for whatever the iPad Mini does better (chiefly and perhaps only price) and forgive everything the iPad Mini fails to do because it's "only a 7" tablet." I personally don't care for the 7" tablets -- it's too similar in size to a smart phone to warrant the cost when another $100 bumps you up to something far easier to read and use gestures with. Still, the Nexus 7 has earned a lot of money. Funny how no one is saying "Google did it so now Apple has to copy them to stay relevant." But that's exactly the kind of double standard Apple is counting on to one-up Microsoft. I feel confident that the iPad Mini will come off like an iPod Touch when really compared to a Surface RT.

The question here, where Apple is really applying the pressure, is pricing. At $300 for a Surface RT, Microsoft would still be taking an estimated loss on each unit as well as underpricing the Windows 8 tablets Dell, Asus, Samsung, and especially Lenovo plan to come out with that same week. I'm sure Apple would like to tempt Microsoft into doing just that -- further pissing off its partners with no real guarantee, in contrast to the iPad Mini, of selling the millions of units that would justify the hardware losses. This is the game Apple has set-up, where technological innovation is not as important as market situation. That explains the iPhone 5 debacle.

 Manchu wrote:
The rumor is that Apple will launch the iPad Mini on October 23, two/three days before the Surface launch. It's clever. I bet Apple is banking on the inevitable but totally inappropriate comparisons. Think about it, how can Apple lose? People will criticize the Surface RT for whatever the iPad Mini does better (chiefly and perhaps only price) and forgive everything the iPad Mini fails to do because it's "only a 7" tablet." I personally don't care for the 7" tablets -- it's too similar in size to a smart phone to warrant the cost when another $100 bumps you up to something far easier to read and use gestures with. Still, the Nexus 7 has earned a lot of money. Funny how no one is saying "Google did it so now Apple has to copy them to stay relevant." But that's exactly the kind of double standard Apple is counting on to one-up Microsoft. I feel confident that the iPad Mini will come off like an iPod Touch when really compared to a Surface RT.

The question here, where Apple is really applying the pressure, is pricing. At $300 for a Surface RT, Microsoft would still be taking an estimated loss on each unit as well as underpricing the Windows 8 tablets Dell, Asus, Samsung, and especially Lenovo plan to come out with that same week. I'm sure Apple would like to tempt Microsoft into doing just that -- further pissing off its partners with no real guarantee, in contrast to the iPad Mini, of selling the millions of units that would justify the hardware losses. This is the game Apple has set-up, where technological innovation is not as important as market situation. That explains the iPhone 5 debacle.

Interesting and good view. It should be remembered however, that Apple had it head handed to it in the non-ITOY market. As the servant said "all glory is fleeting."

We shall see.

I'd really like to see Microsoft undercut it's so-called partners. As a business, the only partners that I'd want are ones that bring the A-game to the market. Can we really say that about Acer, Dell, Samsung, and Lenovo regarding the consumer electronics market? (Asus, by contrast, has done a great job with the Nexus 7 -- just not for Microsoft.) Microsoft needs to light a fire under their butts or Windows will of course continue to lose relevance. It's one thing to lose relevance against a brand like iPad -- but Android, really? A tablet that is basically better than an iPad for $50 - $100 would not only be a clear challenge to Apple but also to Microsoft's partners, who have shown such sloppy work regarding Android devices. For Apple, it hasn't been a fight until now. I hardly wonder about this iPad Mini date -- it shows how worried they are.

I have a Toshiba tablet, and it is great.

The size and more compact feel than a lap top is rather enjoyable to bring around the house. fits right in my hand and can walk around the house while using it. Something I can't do with my lap top unless I hold it like a baby.


Also convenient to bring to the game shop to tell my opponent "See, you're wrong".

Hmm, I thought codicies were only available via iPad?

 Manchu wrote:
Hmm, I thought codicies were only available via iPad?

Nah, not talking about codicies.

FAQ/Rules questions from FFGs games, Malifaux, Infinity, etc.

Luckily my game shop has wifi.

Don't feel like paying 2 bills for internet.

EDIT: Like this past friday I won my very first Game of Thrones LCG tournament.

I'm no longer a loser!