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Trick opponents into thinking they're Oblits and letting them absorb lots of shooting attacks?

Honestly, these guys looked like an accident when processing Oblits. Like they just run all over, and someone at GW said, "You know what...?"

I think it was Mitch Hedburg (RIP) that said, "Pringles didn't always make potato chips. They wanted to sell tennis balls, but when the truck pulled up it brought potatoes, and they said, 'F*** it, cut 'em up!'"

 Clang wrote:
Deepstriking into your opponent's backline to cause max disruption seems the best use of them to me - against most opponents they're likely to have some suitable targets.

Hmm, deepstriking mutilators _and_ obliterators could be even more amusing - but sadly also very dice-dependent...

Deepstriking terminators with combi-melta or combi-plasma would be a heck of a lot more effective though. Heck even the heavy flamer would.

Bring Huron and Typhus. Give Infiltrate to Typhus and put him in a squad of Mutilators. Infiltrate as close to enemy as possible.

Be sure to send other distractions to the enemy first turn ie Daemon allies, bikes, etc, so the Mutilators don't take all the enemy's fire power.

That's about the only way I can see them working.

One thing that baffles me is how they aren't a very good opposite to Oblits. I mean they are supposed to be the CC version of Oblits, but fail for a few key reasons.

1.) CC weapons don't really seem to have much variety, so you basically have 2 real choices.

2.) Oblits, even though they are Long Range focused, HAVE A CC WEAPON! And a decent one too, not great at blobs but still packs a punch.

and since they don't have True Termie armor they can't be deepstruck, even if they could it'd be pointless since the slow mutilators could only shamble and get shot that turn.

Maybe if they let them deepstrike and gave them a HeavyFlamer for free.

Agreed, although Mutilators don't really compete with Oblits in an army list, in that they're in different force organization slots. So maybe that's GW's concept - you can fill your elite slots with CC Mutilators or fill your heavy slots with shooty Oblits, or any combination or both.

But yes, if you want 2+ Saves and Deep Striking, Oblits or termies give nearly as good CC and obviously more shooting, so it's still not obvious why Mutilators are a batter choice - they're just not enough of a CC monster to compensate for the lack of shooting. Maybe they'll get some better stats next codex

 Savageconvoy wrote:
One thing that baffles me is how they aren't a very good opposite to Oblits. I mean they are supposed to be the CC version of Oblits, but fail for a few key reasons.

1.) CC weapons don't really seem to have much variety, so you basically have 2 real choices.

2.) Oblits, even though they are Long Range focused, HAVE A CC WEAPON! And a decent one too, not great at blobs but still packs a punch.

and since they don't have True Termie armor they can't be deepstruck, even if they could it'd be pointless since the slow mutilators could only shamble and get shot that turn.

Maybe if they let them deepstrike and gave them a HeavyFlamer for free.

Mutilators have the Deepstrike special rule.

If they still made lead models they would be useful as a throwing implement against imperialist facists

they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

No they are pretty worthless. They can't take on anything of note because anything can just walk away from them. While shooting them.

At least oblits or terminators can get off some melta or plasma shots before they die. The tactic was called 'termicide' for a reason. Not because the chaos player wanted them to die. Deepstriking three dangerous models into the enemy deployment zone tends to attract some attention.

Kevlar wrote:
No they are pretty worthless. They can't take on anything of note because anything can just walk away from them. While shooting them.

At least oblits or terminators can get off some melta or plasma shots before they die. The tactic was called 'termicide' for a reason. Not because the chaos player wanted them to die. Deepstriking three dangerous models into the enemy deployment zone tends to attract some attention.

That's why you don't deepstrike 3. You deepstrike 1 with MoT or MoN, and you do it next to a HS slot that is going to lose fire power if it "just walks away," and you should be putting it into a position where "walking away" from it moves units in the direction of the rest of your army/or away from an objective. Also, you play it pretty aggressively as the unit is cheap enough to make the risk/reward worth it.

Lastly, they move 6" Assault 2d6", that's not as easy as people seem to think to get away from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and FTR, it takes ~55 Bolter shots to kill one MoN Muti...so "just shoot it"..."while walking away" is easier said then done.

Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

How are Oblits doing CC, better? They're not. In fact, the last thing you would want is for Oblits to be tied up in melee.

15 points adds up pretty quick to 45 points if we're talking a full unit here.

Each one have 2 attacks, (and think of it about 3 mutilators vs 3 obliterators), they went out of a LR, in shooting, mutilators do nothing. Obliterators do shoot, whatever weapon you choose.

Let's say they've MoN, which makes them T5.

Then, in assault, you're charging with 3 T5 with powerfist. 9 attacks in total.

With mutilators, you only asault, and have 3 T5 models with a weapon of your choice, 12 attacks.

Now compare 12 attacks vs:

9 attacks and
12 AC shots
3 melta shots
6 plasma shots (at short range)
etc.

And that without Abaddon in the same unit, that makes them one of the most powerful units in the Chaos codex.

As I've said, we tried them yesterday vs a squad of 6 paladins and Draigo, vs Abby&muti or &obli.

The obliterators just "obliterated" the paladins, while the mutilators caused damage but didn't take the squad.

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

DakotaBlue wrote:
Yesterday we tried something like this in our LGS, and Obliterators are better for the same purpose, as they can shoot before assaulting. Not as good at melee, but still not bad if you have Abbadon with them.

Oblits also cost a lot more, and no unit is going to be bad at Melee if it has Abbadon.

Yeah, 15p. more, add them MoN and you've a unit doing the Mutilator purpose but better.

How are Oblits doing CC, better? They're not. In fact, the last thing you would want is for Oblits to be tied up in melee.

15 points adds up pretty quick to 45 points if we're talking a full unit here.

its 15 points on a 55 point model.



honestly imho the only nice thing about mutes is that they take an elite slot instead of a HS.

Give mutilators the ability to assault after deep strike

Give possessed the ability to assault after disembarking.

Give warp talons ability to assault after deep strike.

There, i just made 3 worthless units competitive and almost worth their points/risk. GW do you notice the trend with melee exclusive units? Please fix.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

If your list needs this point heavy a unit to take care of a 5 man heavy weapons team I think you may want to reread your codex, they're garbage.

Here is the clincher though, obliterators shoot very well and do a decent job at combat. Mutilators do a great job at CC but CAN"T shoot.

This is why Oblits are with out a doubt better even if a bit more per base. "mutilators can make LC for long fangs and chainfists for dreadnoughts"... again a turn after they DS while oblits can make AC for long fangs and TL melta guns for dreads the turn they hit. Oops, I scattered thats ok I'll morph multimelts instead

Deep striking mutialtors has higher risk, you need them to be closer to the enemy then oblits.

Oblits also can shoot after they arrive, or turn one if deployed. If you deep strike mutilators then the soonest they will assault is turn 3. Sorry but shooting was great in 5th and better in 6th, termicide is still the best method for disruption as they have an impact on the turn they arrive which means even if they get nerfed they had a chance to disrupt beyond drawing fire.

Give Warptalons grenades and forget about DS.
throw Mutilators out, let them assault out of DS, or... give them Init 3 AP2 weapons of any kind and base S5 T5.

The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

 Hulksmash wrote:
The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

not sure how they excel at dropping support units.
They drop at best turn 2, perhaps 3 or 4. They have to sit there for a turn, where any melta can ID them, or they can be boltered or they can be assaulted by something that can take them. then full turn later they might be able to move in and assault. Even in assault, they are likely striking last because of cover and nades, then they get 3 attacks which might hit and then are likely to do a few wounds but they might not. They could just as easily be running or dead. If they do manage to break something they cannot pursue. Even if they do win, their late attack means that the back field unit is going to get 2-4 turns of shooting in unmolested.

 wearelegion wrote:
Give mutilators the ability to assault after deep strike

Give possessed the ability to assault after disembarking.

Give warp talons ability to assault after deep strike.

There, i just made 3 worthless units competitive and almost worth their points/risk. GW do you notice the trend with melee exclusive units? Please fix.

/thread, basically. lol

Listen to this man, GW. Please!

 Exergy wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
The problem is that to do what a Mutilator can do (i.e. disrupt the enemy support units) you have to give up a heavy slot. Generally a heavy slot well filled with 5 havocs toting 4 autocannons for a ridiculous 115pts.

Personally Mutilators are gold for disruption. They are cheap, have a solid number of attacks, and will excel at dropping support units. And if vehicles and support units are moving away you count every shot not fired as points paid back.

And remember that they likely won't be alone up close. These models take nasty potential shots off your lord leading a spawn/bike unit as well. Don't judge as a single unit. Judge what it provides in an army.

Oh, and a termicide unit costs 81% more. That's without marks or equipment on either model. Why waste more points on disruption than you have to.

not sure how they excel at dropping support units.
They drop at best turn 2, perhaps 3 or 4. They have to sit there for a turn, where any melta can ID them, or they can be boltered or they can be assaulted by something that can take them. then full turn later they might be able to move in and assault. Even in assault, they are likely striking last because of cover and nades, then they get 3 attacks which might hit and then are likely to do a few wounds but they might not. They could just as easily be running or dead. If they do manage to break something they cannot pursue. Even if they do win, their late attack means that the back field unit is going to get 2-4 turns of shooting in unmolested.

Right, they drop after the enemy has moved forward, and probably gotten their counter assault unit lined up to take on your lords retinue
They have to sit there for a turn and cop fire which isn't coming towards your forces already on the field, and if you want to assault a CC specialist with terminator armor saves, your doing it with something that isn't going for my lord and his retinue.
Even in assault, they are likely striking last if every single piece of terrain is area terrain. Last time I checked not every piece of terrain was area terrain. Whilst striking last sucks if it does happen, you are wearing TDA essentially so the majority of things forcing our 5++ save will swing with you, at the same time as your pair of chainfists.
Their late deepstrike means when they DO land, those LF's are going to go "keep putting missiles into army approaching, or try to stave off death?"
And besides that, why are we using LF's as a backfield unit? They drop like flys, 5-6 man MEQ squads don't last long. At least mine don't!

It's LD8 and a lack of fearless that kills it for me.

@Exergy

I'm not going to argue with you buddy. Feel free to not use them. However having played with other, similar disruption units I can see their worth. I'm not here to force ideas. Just pointing out their value when most people seem to be ignoring it.

 Bloodecho wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

 Bloodecho wrote:
they really arent better than obliteraters at anything at all, save maybe killing tac squads and with VotLW they bearly get that. I just spend the points on them for 15 pts more a model, 3 oblits with Ahriman and a second of 3 (hopefully) infiltrating for early game killy goodness

This is silly, they are 22% cheaper then Oblits and can take the perfect CC weapon for the job instead of being forced to take PFists. Mutilators have their issues, but don't post completely inaccurate hyperbole just to make an inane point. Oblits can take Lightning Claws into Long Fangs and then turn around and take Chain Fists into Psyflman dreads. They really are an ideal Heavy Weapon hunter as they can take on anything they might face. Again, they aren't prefect, not having SNP would help them cover ground better, but a DSing CC unit that can adapt to any situation he faces and can take marks to boost his survivability/attack power is far from worthless.

If your list needs this point heavy a unit to take care of a 5 man heavy weapons team I think you may want to reread your codex, they're garbage.

If you think using a 61 point model to take out a 115+ point HS slot is a "point heavy" investment, I think you may want to relearn how to play the game.

I'm thinking of an In-your-face chaos list, that has a Juggerlord+spawn with axe of blind fury and the dimensional key, and several units of obliterators deepstriking in...

so in this list it might actually not be so bad, to have a one man mutilator unit deepstriking in. the more deepstrikers i have means the more possibility that the key goes off... and I can deepstrike that one mutilator in the back of some tanks, for example, or next to my obliterators to deter any counter-attack units (that would also be distracted by my juggerlord). Especially since the elite slots are not my first choice for this kind of list ( I can totally max out on fast attack and hvy alone).

It might not be terrible to have a bit of mutilators wreaking havoc with some careful manouvering. Not to mention, they go well with spawn, zombies, and other stuff that tends to just get tied down in combat. Even one mutilator can have the extra punch to break that stalemate.

in a combo with fast moving units like raptors or bikers deep striking mutilators could work the raptors can pin units down the mutilators crack skulls

Good point, maybe Mutilators are a lot more useful when used in conjunction with another unit. But that introduces additional problems in getting both units to the same place at the same time. Raptors or bikers do seem good candidates...