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So from what i'm reading this is just a wish list thread rather than an attempt to find a better balance for Storm Troopers.

1. You want them cheaper.
2. You want them to have more powerful weapons.
3. You want them to be better in close combat.
4. You want them to have better leadership than a Space Marine

Sounds like a list of ridiculous demands to me. I want my ork boy to be base strength 4, but even small numbers changes like that create huge balance issues.

If you think Storm Troopers suck, then go check out the many IG Reports by Ailaros. He uses them to great effect, and not as suicide units.

They also want them to have Valkyries as transports if you read the "Storm troopers as troops" thread.

 gpfunk wrote:
So from what i'm reading this is just a wish list thread rather than an attempt to find a better balance for Storm Troopers.

1. You want them cheaper.
2. You want them to have more powerful weapons.
3. You want them to be better in close combat.
4. You want them to have better leadership than a Space Marine

Sounds like a list of ridiculous demands to me. I want my ork boy to be base strength 4, but even small numbers changes like that create huge balance issues.

If you think Storm Troopers suck, then go check out the many IG Reports by Ailaros. He uses them to great effect, and not as suicide units.

Gheez... You know the IG 'dex from BRs, don't you?

to draw an Ork parallel, the STs are the Looted Wagons of the IG. Its natural that people want to do something with them, and since... lets say that their competition is kinda' strong, they need something big to make up for it.

And no, I'm not an Ailaros, and I don't plan to become one .

 AtoMaki wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
So from what i'm reading this is just a wish list thread rather than an attempt to find a better balance for Storm Troopers.

1. You want them cheaper.
2. You want them to have more powerful weapons.
3. You want them to be better in close combat.
4. You want them to have better leadership than a Space Marine

Sounds like a list of ridiculous demands to me. I want my ork boy to be base strength 4, but even small numbers changes like that create huge balance issues.

If you think Storm Troopers suck, then go check out the many IG Reports by Ailaros. He uses them to great effect, and not as suicide units.

Gheez... You know the IG 'dex from BRs, don't you?

to draw an Ork parallel, the STs are the Looted Wagons of the IG. Its natural that people want to do something with them, and since... lets say that their competition is kinda' strong, they need something big to make up for it.

And no, I'm not an Ailaros, and I don't plan to become one .

Actually, I kinda think gpfunk hit the nail on the head with his comment, to be honest. Between "cheaper than a marine", "S4 AP3 lasguns that have bolter range", and "LD10 and stubborn" it kind of reads like a marty stu fap list.

It sort of feels like the CSM proposed rules thread at this point. Someone should have suggested W2 and eternal warrior. I hereby put that suggestion in the pile, cause, like, they're super resilient and can't loose (sp?) to anything, ever.

 daedalus wrote:

Actually, I kinda think gpfunk hit the nail on the head with his comment, to be honest. Between "cheaper than a marine", "S4 AP3 lasguns that have bolter range", and "LD10 and stubborn" it kind of reads like a marty stu fap list.

Well, I must confess, the OP proposition is growing into an abomination, but hey, at least I could have a reason to take them over my trusty vets (or any other viable unit to be fair).

Well, I mean, any single one of those ideas (or yours) might not have been TERRIBLE. The problem is when you take all of them combined. I mean, LD10 + Stubborn is a sum far greater than its parts, just as S4 AP3 + 6" extra range. That's not balance. The trick to balance is to tweak things one tiny painstaking detail at a time, and see what happens.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Gheez... You know the IG 'dex from BRs, don't you?

to draw an Ork parallel, the STs are the Looted Wagons of the IG. Its natural that people want to do something with them, and since... lets say that their competition is kinda' strong, they need something big to make up for it.

And no, I'm not an Ailaros, and I don't plan to become one .

I think a more apt analogy would be Flash Gits. They have an AP anywhere between 2-6 (1-5 with upgrades), can up their weapon strength and number of shots, and have the ignore cover special rule. The problem is Nobz will always be better for the points, similar to how Storm Troopers have some nice special rules but will never have the points to kills ratio of loaded vets in a chimera. Every codex has a unit like these, they're cool, but they just aren't competitive. Most people simply switch out the units depending on whether there playing tourneys or at the FLGS.

And you do have a reason to take them over vets. They can deep strike, so it gets its own mini-alpha strike on the unit of its choice. They have AP 3 Lasguns which deny marines their armor saves on their basic grunts. If you want fluffy units that can deep strike into enemy territory and take out the target of their choice, you take storm troopers. If you want a reliable troops choice that has some serious shooting damage output and durability, you take vets in a chimera.

So there ARE reasons to take Storm Troopers. And they ARE useful in their specific applications. Just because Vets in a Chimera are crazy good for their points doesn't mean that Storm Troopers are bad for theirs.

But if you really want to change them I'd say take Daedalus' idea and try the ideas out 1 at a time. Figure out which one of them makes you feel they're worth their points, and then house rule it. All those shenanigans together AND cheaper in points? Nah.

PS - AtoMaki - Your avatar is hilarious.

 gpfunk wrote:

And you do have a reason to take them over vets. They can deep strike, so it gets its own mini-alpha strike on the unit of its choice. They have AP 3 Lasguns which deny marines their armor saves on their basic grunts. If you want fluffy units that can deep strike into enemy territory and take out the target of their choice, you take storm troopers.

The basic idea of this topic is that "make STs more than random suicide units". Minimal-squads DSing around supporting enemy units are OK. But I think it doesn't really fit these guys. It looks like ST are just penal legionnaires with elitist spice. And of course for every min-squad ST meltacide unit, you have the option to fill your Vendettas with trimelta/demo vets.

Oh, and I tried out many houseruled versions of the Storm Troopers, and on the previous page, I proposed the version which worked best for me.

Firstly, I like giving them Ld 8 + Stubborn, that makes sense.

On increasing the weapon strength you could have a 'bladestorm-esk' upgrade that increases the strength to S4 for one shooting phase in exchance for "gets-hot" and not being able to fire overwatch. My thinking is this represents the ST overloading their guns to max and completely depleting their power cores.

Anyway just my two cents

 AtoMaki wrote:

The basic idea of this topic is that "make STs more than random suicide units". Minimal-squads DSing around supporting enemy units are OK. But I think it doesn't really fit these guys. It looks like ST are just penal legionnaires with elitist spice. And of course for every min-squad ST meltacide unit, you have the option to fill your Vendettas with trimelta/demo vets.

How about an armor upgrade? Give them the ability to up to power armor for a points cost. Now you've got 10 power armored bodies that can blow away something and possibly weather the return fire.

 gpfunk wrote:


How about an armor upgrade? Give them the ability to up to power armor for a points cost. Now you've got 10 power armored bodies that can blow away something and possibly weather the return fire.

To be fair, GK henchmen HAVE set a precedent for mixed armor saves going up to 3+, though I would imagine it would have to be expensive on Storm Troopers.

I updated my original post. Let me know what you guys think.

I still think you've given them too many weapons at 10 men strong. How about 3 weapons at 10 men strong, but the third weapon is 5 points cheaper? That seems like a reasonable compromise without being over the top.

You're still insistent on WS4. Shame on you. It's seriously such an insignificant nonsense point, I'll give it to you, I guess. I don't expect others to.

WS 4 is not a big deal at all, and meets the fluff reasons.

Dire avengers ws 4
necron warriors ws 4
kabolite warriors ws 4

To name a few.... and they are troops. Stormies are elites. Yes, you really wount want to put them in combat, but they should be able to beat up a regular guardsman.

Fluff example - Ratlings. They have Initiative 4.....and they are S 2. You really dont want them guys in CC, but they have the initiative value for fluff reasons.

I4 has other purposes though. Initiative tests and rolling to escape combat (which is something you DO want your ratlings to do) both immediately come to mind.

Still not a fan.

Stormtroopers are pretty good as-is, but their one major problem is their cost. I'd much rather keep them exactly the same but drop their cost down to 15 points a model from 16 and perhaps reduce their base cost to 80 (I've never understood where the arbitrary extra five points comes from in their base cost).

What I DON'T want is to make them even MORE expensive, especially if it comes with even MORE mandatory goodies that I'm not going to use. If you want stubborn, WS4 stormtroopers, then you should have the option to buy that as a squad upgrade for 2 points per model, rather than forcing people who have no interest whatsoever in close combat stormtroopers to spend even more for their beloved shooting units.

I suggest

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv
3 4 3 3 1 3 1 8 4+
Guns stay the same. Special ops stay the same.
More weapons options: Same as veterans.
-->this includes special weapons, demo charges, all of it
Other than that they're pretty much fine. If you want you could add stubborn and that would both make sense and make them better, but its not really necessary.
They are supposed to be the elite units: They should have access to more than if not equal to the weapons of the veterans.
They're still really good now, they don't really need a buff: but the above would be nice.